I never got any notable brass bulging from my Glock 20 with a KKM barrel, but since getting a Banshee, brass bulge is an issue. Most of my bulged brass is A-USA garbage brass and I normally just discard any brass with a visible bulge, but my curiosity is getting the best of me.
Some brass is obviously unsalvageable, since you can't even resize it without creating a visible crease. But other pieces resize just fine. Or do they?
I'm not shooting this brass for anything other than targets, but a torn piece of brass stuck in the chamber is going to be a PITA to remove.
So just how far can you stretch brass before it won't resize with acceptable case strength for warm 10mm loads? When the Banshee bulges brass it does so in a uniform ring close to the case head...not on just one portion of the case like an unsupported pistol chamber.
Its hard to say with the Banshee, I know that the Glock Factory Barrels allow brass to expand to 0.434" at which point it will start to leave a distinct line (SMILE).
If you are seeing a smooth rounded expansion you may be able to pass through size the brass for reconditioning but it will become work hardened quicker if is being worked a lot by resizing...
Only testing the pass through resizing may show if it is worth the effort!
FWIW, I load for a lot of guns of the family. They bring me all kinds of brass to reload. ANY A-USA brass goes straight to the trash can. I won't load it. From not sizing correctly, no neck tension, primer pockets way out of size or flash holes so off center it's a wonder it ever went off. I won't even consider reloading it. If that's all the brass you have, you're outa brass.
Some of the bulges are dramatic enough that any attempt to resize them will both be unsuccessful and create a crease where the bulge refuses to go into the sizing die, but there are no sharp lines like you see with a smile.
More modestly bulged brass can be resized, though there is a visible line where the edge of the bulge was. Looking at the line under 20x magnification it looks like a concentric, even indentation...a dent into the brass. I can see no signs of tearing or shearing, but obviously the brass has been subjected to more than normal forces.
Guess I'll set some aside and experiment with them.
My Witness Longslide is the only 10mm I have that does leave a slight Bulge
I bought the Lee Carbide 10mm Factory Crimp Die and their Bulge Buster Kit
https://leeprecision.com/carbide-factory-crimp-die-40sw10mm.html
https://leeprecision.com/case-conditioning-tools/lee-bulge-buster-kit/
They've worked great for my needs
(https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/images/product_images/006-90862/006-90862.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41xuKL21V0L._AC_.jpg)
IMHO A BULDGE BUSTER is a recipe for a problem.
IF THE BRASS IS BULGED ENOUGH to need a pass thru to replace. RELAXE IT!
IMHO folks are just clueless. If it's bulging in the web than brass is toast and you need adjust your load or look close at your gun. ITS NOT COMMON and it's a problem.
Today some makers with blow back actions are causing bulged cases because it's a BLOW BACK and some Powders and loads are such that pressure curve hasn't dropped sufficiently. All loads don't work in all guns across the board.
The responsibility is in the operator to see understand and react so there is no problems. If ya don't know learn.
Pics have been posted an nearly every forum speaking of a 40/10mm. Glaocks have generous chambers and many loads fired from Them will show expansion to the hawks eye. THIS IS NOT THE DANGEROUS BULDGE many think it is. A dangerous BULDGE will SHEAR part way theu brass and subsequent firing could Likely cause a failure. This failure will be a split case and gas at high velocity ejecting into the firearm where your hand is. Not fun many times no lasting damage but possibility is there ya could be really hurt. Been there and seen that happen. Be smart your loved ones will appreciate that. It's brass as "expensive" as you might say it is it's FAR AND AWAY cheaper than your health.
A BULDGE will be noticeable and deliberate like a woman in her ninth month of pregnancy, it's obvious.
If ya THINK that your brass is there either just toss it. Or separate and don't use u till someone knowing can verify for you. Post pics here many knowledgeable guys will tell ya straight away.
CW
I think cwlongshot was pointing out there is a difference between case "bulge" and regular case expansion. Bulge is typically caused by less than full chamber support in case head area. Glick is notorious for this. Case expansion is a different beast and to be expected. Measure case just above extraction grove. In my G20, case expands to .431". In Ruger SR1911 and XDM 10, cases expand to .428". Both are acceptable, but the .431" cases will split sooner. The "Glock bulge" is exactly as described, looks like a pregnant women in 9th month. Those cases are scrap, very dangerous to reload.
Quote from: cwlongshot on March 16 2020 06:06:17 AM MDT
IMHO folks are just clueless.
IMHO .... this part of your post was uncalled for
The rest .... duly noted
The "Bulge" I see with my Witness is just low enough on the Brass as to not resize all the way in my RCBS Carbide Sizing Die
And is NOT really visible to the naked eye, but will not cleanly drop into and/or out of my L.E. Wilson Max Cartridge Gauge
As such, I run this Brass through the "Bulge Buster" to completely resize it
I have reloaded this Brass quite a few times and it has yet to show any sign of failure
Brass fired from; 2 Witnesses, a Glock and a Delta Gold Cup
There is currently an explosion of new gun owners. Previously a large influx of brand new reloaders. It's the personality of these folks to be a know it all. They read things from others (who also don't know but crow loudly) and crown them selves experts.
My comment is what I see and wasn't specifically directed at any one person. There are folks on here that probably know more than I. We stop learning for two reasons and two reasons alone. CHOICE and DEATH. But speaking to myself. I started reloading in the mid/late 1970's. I have 75/80 die sets I load and shoot almost daily. I have owned 10mm's since there was a 10mm. I am no expert, but I'll venture a guess I know about as much as anyone in the caliber and have at least as much hands on experience loading and shooting it. There is one on my hip as I write this.
I didn't write it to offend, those who really do know, also know they do and shouldn't be offended.
The knowing folks around here are a true asset and help and guide new folks. Its not a slight not to know something. But it IS a slight not to try and learn anything ya can about what interests ya. Especially when in the presence of guys who do know. (Guys here not specifically speaking of myself) Trying not to come off a pompous ass. While still explaining I can and will also help wham I can.
Be safe everyone. Things are gettin real out there.
CW
cwlongshot, no offence take here by me... I too have been hanloading my own ammo since 1978. I can say I am still learning daily, despite my wealth of knowledge and data collected.
I can also say that one of my eye opening experiences was a 380ACP Case Blowout...Why did it blowout? I was working with many unknowns while trying to workup a load for a Bullet that was too heavy (125 grain cast HP based on a 147 grain solid) and too long for the load I started with. While I thought I was working close to the upper end of performance it was too hot pressure wise. However my first shot went off with out a hitch (making velocity 1037 fps) using a old PPU brass case, this case wasn't to be found right away to study. ??? Had I found it, I would have never pulled the trigger on the next round! Why didn't I find it right away? I was setup on the 7 yard line and later found that case on the 15 yard line! :o
Anyway I proceeded to test the second cartridge with a newer looking brass case that I had loaded for the test. Well that case blew out with a velocity of 1038 fps, the pressure pushed the guts of the magazine and stung my hand...Why? The load was the exact same as the first one, however this case was upon further inspection was thinner, the base near the primer flash hole has a recessed area below the flash hole and not flat across the inside like other brands. While I wasn't hurt physically, but my handloading / reloading pride had a stain that weighed heavy on my foolish push for not starting out lower. I have a great respect for that tiny Ruger LCP that handled this abuse as well as it did... 8)
Long story short, if you push the limits, the limits can and will push back! ::)
You are correct that these newer Reloaders / Handloaders on the forum and or social groups are not taking the time to learn the steps about each process like one can learn using the single stage press. Many jump in with the progressive presses, with the goal of making lots of ammo quickly while they give up the inspections at each step!
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 24 2020 03:46:07 PM MDT
You are correct that these newer Reloaders / Handloaders on the forum and or social groups are not taking the time to learn the steps about each process like one can learn using the single stage press. Many jump in with the progressive presses, with the goal of making lots of ammo quickly while they give up the inspections at each step!
It's not even the guys that jump straight to progressive that bother me. I had a friend/co-worker years ago whose first press was a Lee Pro1000. He jumped right in, read the manual, selected a nice starting load and cranked out 50 rounds and tested. Happy with the performance, he never went beyond the starting load. He didn't want to push boundaries or exceed factory performance, he just wanted cheap plinking ammo and educated himself on how to achieve that goal.
What bothers me are the questions I see in other forums and social media sites where someone asks a basic question that illustrates they have never read a reloading manual, and then are offended when you tell them to RTFM. Reloading is inherently safe IF and only if you know your goal and understand the safe steps to get there. Those steps are outlined in about 2 hours of reading in any decent reloading manual. Don't touch the press, be it single stage, turret or progressive until you finish the manual. Go back and re-read any parts that are relevant to your goals that you cannot explain to your grandma (or grandson depending on your demographic).
The worst offenders are guys that pop up on social media and ask nonsense like "Whats a good recipe for 9mm using H4831 I have on hand?". They don't know enough to even know that there are a huge number of "9mm" variants, all have different load data only one would use H4831. And that one is very unusual; 9.3X74R. Unusual enough that I would very much not expect someone who owns it to ask such a vague question.
Perhaps I am a curmudgeon.
OK ....
This Thread has gone WAaay off the rails
Go back and READ the OP
A question was asked
Then information was offered
It's not about taking offence
But belittling someone IS NOT a good teaching method !
A random selection of reload and factory ammo with Banshee Bulging at the base:
(https://backcountrypilot.org/images/originalphotos/532/5653/aa4e328f4d4488c56e0d54be.jpg)
Some are swollen to the point that they cannot be resized. Others run through the dies fine.
Here are some resized and bulge-busted:
(https://backcountrypilot.org/images/originalphotos/532/5653/c12c0ecca829f762c3db49e7.jpg)
Close-up:
(https://backcountrypilot.org/me/my-photos/532hammer/photo?albumid=5653&photoid=55291)
I'm setting aside once-fired Starline brass with Banshee Bulge, and if they resize fine I'll reload them and see what happens with the brass. Multi-loaded mixed brass with bulging goes in the trash.
Any input?
Muskrat what dies are you sizing with? Hornady? Other?
Quote from: The_Shadow on April 13 2020 04:38:53 PM MDT
Muskrat what dies are you sizing with? Hornady? Other?
I'm using a Lee 4 die set.
What weight buffer? "Full house" and suppressed, you are suposed to run the 8 oz buffer
5 ps comes with the gun, and 3 oz is for light loads
It's a radial delayed blowback system so I would try a heavier buffer if you arent already
The barrel support seems to have a bunch of unsupported area above the case web...it may be the nature of the bolt locking lug area with the Banshee and barrels.
I remember Mudrush (of SwampFox ammo) mentioning that the longer barrels of the pistols caused case bulges because the recoil cycle was happening while pressures were still high.
What about the Banshee, it is said to be a "Delayed Blow Back" system. I would check into stronger spring pressure at lock up to see if that would improve brass conditions with added dwell time.
That being said you may not want to reused those brass loaded to the upper end of performance.
You may see a case separation if they are reused with high end reloads.
Looking over the resized cases, they seem to be getting worked down to a good size, but they may also get work hardened fairly quickly. As such the brass may have interior cracks or become brittle where they could do a case head separation, which might leave the upper section of the casing inside the chamber. Something to be mindful of!
If you want a different solution, try cutting down some 6.8SPC brass to load as the web is thicker, you may need to adjust the powder charge but it may provide more reusable brass life.
Quote from: Muskrat on April 13 2020 02:46:09 PM MDT
A random selection of reload and factory ammo with Banshee Bulging at the base:
(https://backcountrypilot.org/images/originalphotos/532/5653/aa4e328f4d4488c56e0d54be.jpg)
Some are swollen to the point that they cannot be resized. Others run through the dies fine.
Here are some resized and bulge-busted:
(https://backcountrypilot.org/images/originalphotos/532/5653/c12c0ecca829f762c3db49e7.jpg)
Close-up:
(https://backcountrypilot.org/me/my-photos/532hammer/photo?albumid=5653&photoid=55291)
I'm setting aside once-fired Starline brass with Banshee Bulge, and if they resize fine I'll reload them and see what happens with the brass. Multi-loaded mixed brass with bulging goes in the trash.
Any input?
Wow!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Thanks everyone!
I'm using the 8oz buffer even though most of my loads don't meet the power factor to "require" it.
I'm not at all sure that the swelling is due to premature bolt movement...I think there's just that much unsupported chamber where the bolt face covers the base of the cartridge. Bolt movement may play a part, however. While not pictured, some brass bulges so dramatically that it will not go through a sizing die.
As you can see from the pictures, some of those pieces of brass have been reloaded a LOT. They go in the garbage if they get a visible swell...most of them are A-USA, which probably should have gone in the garbage while new. S&B brass is holding up remarkably well, btw.
I'll see what happens with new Starline brass and resizing, and look into the 6.8SPC brass as an option. The Banshee is nothing but a range toy for me, so if I get a case head separation it's just going to mean the premature end of a shooting session. I mean, I keep it handy around the house, but then it's loaded with something other than reloaded range ammo...
Have you checked the length of the brass? The bulged brass pics look like the mouth of the case might be rolled in, indicating that the brass might be too long or the chamber too short--- or ot could just be an optical illusion.
Have you contacted the manu regarding the issue? They would probably tell. You not to run reloads though if you brought it up
Brass is not too long, but that's a good idea.
CMMG is aware of the issue and, when asked, will provide a boiler plate response to the effect of "we're aware of the issue....switch to different ammo...swelling is safe but we recommend avoiding ammo that swells...etc.." They have nothing to say about reloading ammo that's been shot through a Banshee, which makes sense.
Basically the Banshee swells brass (sometimes dramatically) with hot loads, period. Common sense says that some of that brass gets thrown away, but then some of it is probably ok for range loads...I'm trying to find that line.
I will say this for the Banshee: it runs flawlessly. It has eaten every single load I can find to feed it without a single hick-up, and it has proven a lot more accurate than I expected it to be. In fact, to date I think it's more reliable than my Glock 20. No doubt some of that reliability has to do with the unsupported rear portion of the chamber, so pick your poison.
I'm happy with that trade-off, but I'm really disappointed that I had to figure it out on my own. Nothing in the box from CMMG...NOT A SINGLE MENTION of it from any of the dozens of gun reviews done on the 10mm Banshee, and I know for a fact that they were getting visible bulging with the ammo they were using. I've written comments to some of the reviews...they get deleted. Goes to show what those reviews are really worth...
If you have any way to cut a case that was run through the bulge buster in half length wise it would be interesting to see the thinning area. I've only been reloading a little over 50 years but I would not use those cases again.
Here is a look at the sectioned 40S&W case that had a smile line
Once the brass is "SMILED" it will not iron out because the brass has started to shear...
(https://s20.postimg.cc/l5imag9p9/40_S_W_Smile_Cross_Section.jpg)
The "SMILED" brass was run thru the Pass-thru-die system but it does not remove or repair the shearing...look close at the left side of this casing.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/yyki9tn4t/40_case_Cross_Section.jpg)
Same brass different view...This isn't the best picture, but the brass is shiny from resizing above and below the smile, but the smile is still visible. This chambered just fine before sectioning. This is the piece of brass in the picture above.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/l4w5krmtp/40_brass_Cross_Section_Smile.jpg)
Thanks to Yondering who originally posted these pictures of the smiled brass over at GT!
The difference between a smile and a bulge seems to be the sharpness of the stress line...no?
Looking at my brass under 20x magnification I cannot see any shearing or cutting in any of the stress areas, FWIW.
What's the best way to cut a piece of brass in half...I haven't figured that one out yet.
The shear is more on the molecular level where the stretching will not return to the original shape. As you try to reshape it the area around the line moves but the line remains.
I have taken a badly smiled brass that actual had the primer pocket enlarged as the primer was also blown out from a commercial ammo test. I passed it through the pass through die, while it did fit the case gauge and actually tighten the primer pocket some and I reloaded it just to test its reuse, long story shot it re-smiled and the primer fell out after that test...
I didn't cut the one pictured but I have used a Dremel to cut some and a sander to clean up the cut...
Quote from: Muskrat on April 15 2020 11:09:37 AM MDT
The difference between a smile and a bulge seems to be the sharpness of the stress line...no?
Looking at my brass under 20x magnification I cannot see any shearing or cutting in any of the stress areas, FWIW.
What's the best way to cut a piece of brass in half...I haven't figured that one out yet.
Dremel makes a non ferrous metal cutting wheel. They're bigger than the ferrous metal wheels. Clamp the dremel to a table and hold the brass with needle nose vice grips. Pass the brass under the cutting wheel like an inverted table saw. It may not be the best way, but that's my solution. Make sure the rotation at the point of contact is away from you.
Clamp the brass in the jaws of a jig for you Bridgeport mill. Make passes with a 1/2" end mill until you reach the desired depth. ;D
Bulged and resized brass:
(https://backcountrypilot.org/images/originalphotos/532/5653/580bbb64aac7b4c1ee1dfccf.jpg)
Here's a Underwood brass, severely bulged, next to a new piece of Starline brass:
(https://backcountrypilot.org/images/originalphotos/532/5653/83270e80f22de49d55a437cb.jpg)
I passed it through a Lee full length carbide resizer...it was so bulged that a ring of nickel got stripped off the outside of the case!
(https://backcountrypilot.org/images/photos/532/5653/c401ff9074d4acad7019a588.jpg)
Next I bulge-busted it:
(https://backcountrypilot.org/images/photos/532/5653/127150ed4b42bdfca3d72d6b.jpg)
And finally I cut it in half:
(https://backcountrypilot.org/images/originalphotos/532/5653/7de00c93342ee5baba3bae2e.jpg)
I am not seeing ANY tearing or molecular damage, even with such an extreme bulge. I'm not planning on resizing any brass that's so bulged, but it would appear that less bulged brass is probably fine for range loads. Maybe?
If there's any other way to inspect brass for internal damage, I'm all ears.
Bulged is usually not a problem, even if the bulge is large. Cold working the brass makes it stronger.
Smiled is usually a problem. The smile line is where the brass started to separate, tear or crack. Even if you mechanically move the brass back, it will not become one uniform piece again.
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 15 2020 04:04:59 PM MDT
Bulged is usually not a problem, even if the bulge is large. Cold working the brass makes it stronger.
Smiled is usually a problem. The smile line is where the brass started to separate, tear or crack. Even if you mechanically move the brass back, it will not become one uniform piece again.
Good and pertinent discussion here. I just worked up some 200 grain Gold Dot loads with BE86.
Glock 20 long slide, 6.5" Lone Wolf barrel
24# recoil spring
Average case length - .977
COAL - 1.250
Once fired Sig brass
Load steps
8.0 - Avg 5 shot velocity 1278.87
8.2 - Avg 5 shot velocity 1308.71
8.4 - Did not shoot
8.6 - Did not shoot
I've shot thousands and thousands of 10mm with factory, LW and KKM barrels and I have never seen a smile on a case until now.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200415/26ad285ff7fe6d57676e9e90d90a055c.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200415/ba1acec754b0390e0974edea7895a5ae.jpg)
I'm assuming these are a weeee bit hot. I think I'll back down to around 7.4 grains and try again.
I sure wish Quickload had BE86 powder in its database. [emoji853]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Muskrat, great pictures of the brass and cut away too... Starline brass does start out softer (Underwood is using brass from Starline but with his own headstamp). As such the brass is more useable as handloader but it will work harden over several uses.
Winchester brass was stiffer and less malleable but seemed to hold up better under higher pressures than some other brands.
Hornady & Federal were always on the stiff side and I have seen many Federal cases split long ways when fired in the HK MP-5 10mm guns. Out of 500 about 55 or 60 were split or split while resizing.
Here is another thought, Starline makes the 10mm Magnum brass which is a little thicker around the base and up the case walls, if cut and used for 10mm Auto it may provide better strength but have issues when seating the longer bullets in the thicker cases. (The 10MM Magnum Brass is a heavy duty, lengthened 10MM Auto. CANNOT BE USED IN STANDARD 10MM PISTOL.)
I knew some guys that trimmed them to 10mm Auto lengths and used them.
Not sure if they would bulge less with the same loads in the Banshee.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBgGTS3t/10mm-10mm-MAG-1s.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5yWNgYCx/10mm-10mm-MAG-wall-to-web.jpg)
Interesting idea to try the 10mm Mag brass...might be just the ticket for 165 grain loads. A 165 Blue Bullet over 9.7 grains of Power Pistol is a fantastically accurate load in the Banshee, but it's right on the edge of bulging the brass to the worry point.
Just a quick mention on the 6.8spc brass.. Yeah, that would be a big no go in my book. I cut some down at various lengths.. .997" being the max. Reamed them to .395" (not doing so will cause bullets to be crushed and brass to be severely bulged because of 6.8spc wall thickness at base) just deep enough for bullet seating.
After testing a half dozen variations of length and reaming depth/upper wall thicknesses. I've come to the conclusion that the loss of case capacity does not justify the added strength of the brass @ the base. In one case I noted a capacity of 3.2gr less when compared to a piece of new starline brass of the same length. Therefore pressures for the same desired velocities are much much higher.. and if you were looking for something that could handle more of a beating with less support.. 6.8spc isn't gonna do it.
I'm going down the 10mm Magnum path to see if that's an option.
p.s.
I ran the 6.8spc brass numbers through quickload.. .990" 22gr case capacity 170gr precision coated bullet .595" seated @ 1.265" over 9.7gr PP = 112% fill 1547fps 8" Barrel 908fpe 47,853psi !!! 34,603psi from Multi X fired FC .988" 24.3gr capacity.
Excellent sectioning, Muskrat. We can all learn from your work. My opinion: Based upon the results of your study, I would reload that bulged brass all day long, perhaps only for warmup loads if I was being overly conservative. Well done, sir.
Thanks sparkyv!
I think the key is having a decent macro lens. I agree that reloading these pieces is safe enough to proceed with.
cheers
So I picked up my Banshee 300 today.
Any updates on brass life reloading the Banshee Bulged cases? I don't see the need to push any speed records on my Banshee and want to work up a moderate target load with a little more recoil than standard S&B 180 gr FP.
I saw that 165 gr FMJ with 9.7gr Power Pistol reportedly is on the verge of bulging... has anyone use any of the slower magnum powders like AA#9? I have a large variety of powders to choose from and want a economical target round to make a few cases of.
You'll just have to experiment. I've noticed a lot of difference with the brand of brass, and how many times the brass has been reloaded. Blue Dot seems to work pretty well...10 grains with a 180 grain bullet, or 8.5 grains with a 200 grain bullet have not bulged any brass for me. Slower powders might help some...when I get motivated I'll work up some loads with AA#9 and see if there's any difference.
When they do bulge, I've found that if they'll go through the resizer they're ok to reload, for range loads anyway. Hot loads...book max or Underwood level loads cannot be resized, though I've yet to have one rupture or separate. I use the 8oz buffer for everything, which might be why I haven't had any of the separations other people have reported.
If I ever find a small bag of 10mm Mag brass I'll try cutting it down and see if it's any stronger than regular brass.
Quote from: Mike D on April 15 2020 05:18:17 PM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 15 2020 04:04:59 PM MDT
Bulged is usually not a problem, even if the bulge is large. Cold working the brass makes it stronger.
Smiled is usually a problem. The smile line is where the brass started to separate, tear or crack. Even if you mechanically move the brass back, it will not become one uniform piece again.
Good and pertinent discussion here. I just worked up some 200 grain Gold Dot loads with BE86.
Glock 20 long slide, 6.5" Lone Wolf barrel
24# recoil spring
Average case length - .977
COAL - 1.250
Once fired Sig brass
Load steps
8.0 - Avg 5 shot velocity 1278.87
8.2 - Avg 5 shot velocity 1308.71
8.4 - Did not shoot
8.6 - Did not shoot
I've shot thousands and thousands of 10mm with factory, LW and KKM barrels and I have never seen a smile on a case until now.
pics removed...
I'm assuming these are a weeee bit hot. I think I'll back down to around 7.4 grains and try again.
I sure wish Quickload had BE86 powder in its database. [emoji853]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Where did you get the idea that 8.0 of BE-86 was a good start point for 200 grain projectiles? Alliant doesn't list a 200 grain bullet, only a 190 and and the max with a 190 is only 7.6?
Slayer61, I have worked up my own load using the 200 grain Gold Dots using 8.4 grains of BE-86, however I setteled on 8.3 grains at 1200 fps with the 200 GD.
Aliant's data is very low for the BE-86 and they stopped adding the pressure values.
Also have seen some recent commercial loads using BE-86 as documented...