This new topic is a result of an excellent question by Muskrat in another thread.
Quote from: Muskrat on February 19 2020 09:53:18 PM MST
And the upside of a 1,375 fps FMJ load is...what...exactly?
For background the 1,375 fps load was compared to a 1,300 fps load previously offered. I am also pretty sure he was making a point about the fact that a non-exanding round doesn't have a lot of benefit until you get above 2200 fps and start with serious hydra-static pressure waves.
This comment made me wonder, how much velocity increase is needed to be useful?
No one will argue that 900 is better than 450, or we would all be shooting air rifles. Even in FMJ, the benefits in flatter trajectory are worthwhile.
And, no one would pick ammo that was 1,001 fps over ammo that was 1,000 fps unless it was cheaper. 1 fps is not enough gain to matter.
So, where does that boundary lie for you. For FMJ, or for JHP, how much velocity increase in a given bullet weight makes you turn your head and take notice?
While the question is centered on the 10mm, I think it can be a blanket question for all pistol rounds. When is the velocity enough? What I've found in my travels on shooting leagues, country shoots, etc., is that most folks that shoot pistols are horrible marksmen. Most can't keep it on the paper at 25 yds. Ever notice that at ranges that use a wood frame for mounting the target is usually all shot to hell? So here we have the average pistolero that can't hit crap at 25 yds but buys the hottest stuff he can and for what- flatter trajectory? If you consider time of flight between a 25 yd shot or a 50 yd shot, trajectory is pretty much a nothing as is a difference of time of flight. So what's the allure? Some folks just like hyper velocity regardless if it has any benefits or not. I'm old school, no doubt, but I'd like to think I'm sharp enough to know that at 25 yds, 50'ps increase in velocity is meaningless. I certainly won't know the difference in shooting it and an animal certainly won't know the difference in getting hit with it. Kinda reminds me of the guys that drive the Bugattis and other exotic cars. Yeah, it goes faster but for what? I guess it comes down to a testosterone problem.
I think the benefit may be an outdoors self defense load for large animals....such as bear or moose. With a full metal jacket load, the increased velocity would equate to deeper penetration and perhaps better penetration through heavy bone.
Is the extra 75 fps "worth" the possibility of an over pressure situation? Hard to say, but if your gun is set up properly as Shadow mentioned then it shouldn't be an issue.
YMMV
FMJ ammo doesn't have much application for large game... Unlike a Keith-style lead bullet, FMJ's tumble in tissue. It seriously retards penetration and prevents a straight wound track.
As for "how much is enough", it's interesting that increased velocity often reduces penetration in .400 expanding bullets. The vast majority of them were engineered to expand properly at .40 S&W velocities, and kicking them up another 300 or 400 fps makes them perform worse, not better. So you're getting worse penetration, and/or fragmentation, and/or jacket separation, in exchange for higher recoil and muzzle blast and slower follow-on shots...not a good trade-off, but it sells ammo to people that believe foot-pounds of energy is somehow relevant to handgun cartridge lethality.
On the other hand tough bullets like the Federal Trophy Bonded need HOT 10mm velocities to expand, and many 200 grain hollow points have lack-luster expansion at moderate 10mm velocities...so there's two sides to the performance debate.
Then there's the issue of accuracy. I've got vintage Underwood 200 grain hard cast loads that clock 1300 from my 6" KKM barrel, but the accuracy is poor. It's fine for a bear defense load, but I'd never use it for a hunting load. I've got a 200 grain XTP load that "only" makes 1,220 fps out of the same barrel, but it's a tack-driver. Oddly enough I also have some 135 grain Nosler loads that scoot out at 1590 fps and they're quite accurate, though I'm not sure what they're actually good for.
I'm real happy in the medium-warm zone:
225 grains at 1050 fps
200 grains at 1150 fps
180 grains at 1250 fps
These velocities are easy on the gun, easy on the brass, and easy on me. If they aren't ballistically equal to the challenge, it's just time to pick a different gun.
I do believe this to be a fact: any velocity gain that unduly batters the weapon or seriously retards accuracy is a poor compromise, and no velocity gain is worth a K-Boom...ever.
But that's just me.
Not that I am an expert by any stretch, but totally stands to reason
So regarding trajectory and handgun bullets at handgun distances...
I shoot a lot of Steel Challenge matches with a .40 S&W, where 35 yards is generally the long shot. I've fiddled around with super-slow 200 grain bullets (which in theory provide the least recoil), and moderate velocity 165 grain bullets, which shoot significantly faster and flatter.
Out to 35 yards, I can't tell a damn bit of difference between the two. Some of my 200 grain loads have been so anemic that I can see the bullet heading downrange against the white backdrop of a target, but I don't hold any different between the two loads, and whatever difference there is in trajectory is inconsequential to a 12" disk at 35 yards.
Anyone who thinks that the trajectory differential between 1300 and 1375 fps is relevant must be shooting a scoped rifle from a solid rest at ranges past 100 yards.
I shoot my 10mm's quite regularly at distances over 50 yards, but only for fun. Muskrat is spot on though. Out to 50 yards the difference in trajectory is about 1/8" (.9371" drop vs .7938" drop).
Muzzle energy does matter, but again, more may not be better for a given bullet.
For me it is all about balance, and no one component can be evaluated alone.
Quote from: Muskrat on February 20 2020 07:12:59 PM MST
FMJ ammo doesn't have much application for large game... Unlike a Keith-style lead bullet, FMJ's tumble in tissue. It seriously retards penetration and prevents a straight wound track.
Interesting and first I have heard of this. Have you shot much game with fmj bullets from a pistol?
Quote from: 4949shooter on February 21 2020 03:56:26 PM MST
Quote from: Muskrat on February 20 2020 07:12:59 PM MST
FMJ ammo doesn't have much application for large game... Unlike a Keith-style lead bullet, FMJ's tumble in tissue. It seriously retards penetration and prevents a straight wound track.
Interesting and first I have heard of this. Have you shot much game with fmj bullets from a pistol?
None that I can think of, but I haven't hunted in years.
There's a pretty comprehensive study on pistol bullet penetration, but I can't remember exactly where it's at. Might be in one of the Rathcom papers? In any event the fmj loads performed very poorly in comparison to Keith lead bullets, both in penetration and directional stability.
Look an virtually any "dangerous game" handgun load on the market and it will be a Keith-style cast lead bullet.
Don't have any experience with Fenix but just to be clear; looking at the website the 1375fps velocity claim in 10mm is specified through a 6" barrel.
The 180gr fmj on their website clearly appears to be WFN variety; which would help them perform pretty decently in deep, straight line penetration. Such as desired for large animal defense.
5Pins has done a lot of testing of similar loads in 10mm & 45acp.... Seem to recall they penetrate ballistics gel like crazy.
No disrespect intended to others with a different point of view but a fully supported 6" barrelled pistol stoked with 180gr FMJ (WFN) 10mm skipping along at 1375fps from the muzzle, strapped to my hip while traipsing through places with dangerous critters wouldn't worry me much. Quite the opposite actually. Hardcast WFN would have been my first choice but pretty sure WFN FMJ capable of getting job done too.
Don't know what JHP they use...But if it was 180gr XTP at 1375fps muzzle; that's about 1300fps and 670ft-lbs 25yds; 1223fps and 598ft-lbs at 50yds; 1161fps and 539ft-lbs at 75yds........
Rember Hornady loads factory at 1275 from 5" barrel..... So Fenix gotta do something to differentiate themselves...
Has anyone actually chronied this load to see if it is, in fact, getting 1375? It wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer exaggerated their numbers. If so I would think it would penetrate for days and probably more then you will ever need.
As far as how much is too much? Figure out what you need a bullet to do and then match the velocity to accomplish that goal.
From what I can remember from the literature not inet the use of a wide flat meplat yields the best straight line penetration. Round nose or semipointed FMJ are quite independent as far as performance goes. I think from some limited experience withold milsurp ammo ike 7x57 173-5 gr roundnose, by virtue of bullet length tend to keep going in staight lines. One instance I remember was 30" of hickory followed by 4' of turf. I think that bullet may still be travelling. Shorter pointy bullets are random in behavior.
I use some logs for back stops in some places on the farm and Kieth style tend to go straight in wood , expanded or not. The XTPs tend to yaw and proceed at some angle. Rapid enpansion = short straight path.
There is an Australian company that makes a dnagerous game FMJ that has a "cupped" sort of meplat they refer to as a "hydro stabilized bullet". This has a good or even better reputation for making straight holes in things like elephants.
I guess the real answer is enough is what it takes to make a deep enogh disrumptive wound in what ever creature you want to neutralize.Since it is FMJ being discussed then making a hole in the background after transiting the creature is irrelevant.
Sorry to run on.
I'm not suggesting that FMJ bullets won't go in, just that they are a poor choice if deep penetration or tissue damage is the goal. By in large the lead in the core of FMJ's is soft, and the jacket won't keep the bullet from deforming, tumbling, or generally going caddywhompus in tissue.
FMJ bullets are not reliable expanders, and they're not reliable penetrators. They can be more functionally reliable than other bullet types, depending on the weapon.
Will they work on large animals? Maybe, but Keith hard-cast bullets have been proven to work significantly better.
Will they work on upright apes? Maybe, but expanding hollow point bullets have been proven to work MUCH better.
Hence the question: What's the point of a FMJ being pushed to 1375 fps? To really WHACK that steel or paper or soup can?
Seems like a gimmick load to me, but to each their own.
Certain brands of hardball and hollow point are equal velocity as part of training. You practice with hardball and carry hollow point.
The ammo to use depend on what the job is. To hunt use hunting ammo, to plink use plinking ammo. For SD use SD ammo.
Absolutely a thought process to Stick by, Thanks Olgo!
Ken
Well Just got out the hospital for A-Fib issues, still hoping meds will correct this if not the I'll have to get shocked to set it straight...
My comment about the Fenix ammo being on the hotter side is based on loads we have documented in the past from Swap Fox Ammo and even older Underwood.
While I have loaded the LongShot powder under many of my personal loads, I have stopped at 9.4 grains Longshot under the 200 grain JHP's making 1240 fps - 1250 fps from Factory G-20 barrel.
With the 180 grain JHP's I stop at 9.6 grains making 1300 + fps G-20 Factory barrel...These are woods carry that I load, considering longer distances to target.
I feel that 1200 fps for 200 grain is more than enough and 1250 fps for the 180's as carry ammo on the street.
Any way just checking in after being away for a few days... :D
Bummer about the a-fib, Shadow. Many of the men in my family suffer from it.
One thing we learned...the longer it goes untreated the less likely it will ever be brought under control. So get on it asap any time you think you've slipped back into aterial fibration!
Dad says that while getting shocked isn't much fun, it's the catheter that ruins the day.
good luck!
Added to my Prayer list Friend, and yes, the catheter thing is the frigen worst
Thanks for the well wishes and prayers! Hoping things work out!
The worst part of A-Fib if not caught early is blood clots, they popped me with blood thinners the day I went to the hospital Thursday morning and meds to bring my heart rates down and IV's to try and let it convert to a normal rhythm again...some times the meds will work with time, if it doesn't I have to schedule to have them use a ultra sound down the throat to look at the back side of the heart and then shock to convert the rhythm back to normal...
By the way I had been tracking my blood pressure and also felt my heart having higher beat rate which showed on the BP monitor as well, that's when I headed to the hospital to be checked in and start treatments...Being a retired fireman with EMT background I sort of suspected what I was feeling early on...
Feel better Shadow. My buddy has been dealing with this problem for years. When they changed his medication it really messed him up.
Stay well my friend..
4949shooter, Thanks! Tomorrow is my Dr. appointment so I will find out where I stand...
:o wow! good luck at the Doctors tomorrow! sorry to hear this. :(
Good luck with the A fib. It can really be inconvenient, but the bllod thinners even more so.
Two types Warfarin or the new fancy dont monitor types. At least warfarin is reversible the more modern not so.
Hope they can keep yours under control.
I've been giving this a lot of thought lately, especially since I recently shelved my Underwood woods loads in favor of milder hand-loads.
Like most folks interested in ballistics, I've always figured the hotter the better. Heavier bullets, higher velocities, or preferably both. Maximize it! That's obviously the most lethal combination...right?
Maybe not...
While I love Underwood ammo, it, or hand-loads that duplicate it, are ALWAYS the rounds that will cause a failure to feed. If I have a stoppage, it's with super-hot ammo. I've tried four different spring combinations and two different barrels and five different magazines, and while I can reduce the problem...even eliminate it with a perfect grip, it comes right back when I intentionally shoot with a compromised grip to simulate cold or injured hands. Reduced loads have proven MUCH more forgiving of imperfect grip in my experience.
More power never compensates for less reliability in my book. Maybe if I had a gun that fed Underwood-level ammo perfectly no matter how I gripped it I'd stick with it, but then again, maybe not. Recoil comes into play, and it's not an insignificant factor in handgun lethality.
I'm lucky enough to live where large furry things are more of a threat than people, and I cary a 10mm rather than a large bore revolver because I think the 10mm is more lethal in defensive shootings, even against huge bears. That's because I can get a lot more shots on target with a 10mm than I can with a .44, never mind a .454 or some other hip bazooka. But anyone who's shot a few boxes of Underwood 220 grain hard cast knows that it's just not the same animal as other 10mm loads. Recoil is significantly stronger, and follow-up shots are significantly slower...at least if you want them on target. So while it's a given that extra power isn't worth reduced reliability, is that extra power even worth the extra recoil?
I do a reasonable amount of USPSA and Steel Challenge shooting with my 10mm because I like shooting it. But if I switch to my .40 S&W, my scores go up dramatically...like from middle of the pack to the top five. The reason is recoil, pure and simple. The increased recoil of the 10mm means slower follow-on shots or less accuracy...take your pick. It may not seem like that big a deal punching paper at the range, but in dynamic shooting against the clock, it's huge.
At the risk of being struck by lightning, I think the FBI was real smart to first download and then drop the 10mm as a service weapon in favor of the .40 S&W, and I think that companies like Federal are smart to offer 10mm defensive ammo that mimics the .40's ballistics. If I were for some reason carrying a 10mm for defense against people, I'd pick 180 grains @ 950 fps over 180 grains @ 1350 fps. And when I do arm myself for people-protection, I take one of my .40's, not my 10mm, for the exact same reason that I take my 10mm for wildlife protection instead of a .44 mag.
Adequate power and fast follow-on shots have consistently proven to be more lethal than more power and slower follow-on shots. Where exactly that line is has caused the occasional debate.
So I'm carrying downloaded ammo these days...220 grains at -1100 fps, 200 grains at -1200 fps, 180 grains at -1300 fps, all from a 6" barrel, and easily 150 fps slower than what's possible. Reliability is the main reason, but the other reason is I'm just not convinced that extra 150 fps is really doing me more good than harm in a handgun cartridge.
Just thoughts...
Muskrat
This is a good read and you make a perfect case for making your current choices. You pretty much have me convinced to join you in the quest for reliability and best personal accuracy for this 10mm round.
Thanks a bundle
Muskrat,
Though I know in my heart you are correct about the FBI and the 10mm....
I wish they would have stayed with the mighty ten for versatility. Let the mediocre shooters carry light loads. Let the better shooters, and the SWAT guys carry full or near full power ten ammo.
I luv the 10mm too much to give it up completely for the FBI's sake. If the Feebs would have stayed with the ten, then all the other LE agencies who went with the .40 after the Feebs would have been carrying tens.
Though I know the ten mm is more of a "niche" round for hunters, outdoorsmen, and fanatical shooters like us. I still wish the FBI would have kept it.
Wouldn't have affected my agency though. When all the other agencies were going with .40, we stayed with 9. I am now retired but they still carry the 9mm, as does my son.
Stay safe and well...
Ya....when I started in law enforcement I'd have given up my pension to cary a 10mm...funny how things change.
If I didn't shoot both calibers in identical matches and see the vastly different scores, I would probably think differently about it. After all, I've been shooting for decades and shoot many thousands of rounds each year... I'm 6'5" with strong arms and massive hands, so surly I can shoot a 10mm just as fast and accurate as any other caliber. Turns out that's not the case.
Now the FBI is back to a 9mm...quite a step down in ballistics from the .40 S&W. No opinion on that, but I think it's interesting.
Even though .40 and .45 get preferential scoring in USPSA matches, I see virtually nothing but 9mm guns. Price plays a part no doubt, but the handful of people who take turns in first place all shoot 9mm. They're good shooters, but they choose the lowest recoil option that will make minor power factor. The extra points allotted for major power factor doesn't compensate for the slower shooting times.
Plus with the advances in defensive ammo technology, along with the hi cap 9's that are available, I think LE's decision to go back the 9 was a smart choice, thus making quick and accurate follow up shots possible for those that don't live and breathe shooting
Ken
Funny I ended up making this decision many years ago. Shooting 9's was easyer and cheaper even for handloading. 10MM was always fun and I took to it buying a Witness first, then a Kimber. I also shoot a 40 but not that often. I also think 17 rounds are better than less rounds even when it's a 9mm. Just has always been my thinking. Craig
Agreed, I most often carry my 19rd XDm 9 now, vs a 10 in an urban environment. I still carry my RIA high cap 10 on occasion, but it's primary use is for woods protection and range fun. There is something to be said about controllability when the stress is high, and quick follow up shorts are required
Very well put Muskrat, I couldn't agree more. Pushing the envelope in any caliber can lead to a host of malfunctions and controllably issues. And you probably are not going to gain much in terminal performance. A reliable gun is better than a jamomatic with more power
Quote from: Muskrat on April 19 2020 12:30:16 PM MDT
Even though .40 and .45 get preferential scoring in USPSA matches, I see virtually nothing but 9mm guns. Price plays a part no doubt, but the handful of people who take turns in first place all shoot 9mm. They're good shooters, but they choose the lowest recoil option that will make minor power factor. The extra points allotted for major power factor doesn't compensate for the slower shooting times.
Reading though the posts in this tread, I was going to make this point. If you go from middle of the pack to top five when moving from 10mm to 40s&w...... Then stands to reason 9mm is the way to go in USPSA matches.
Undeniable wisdom in your perspective. Brings to mind the story of the old bull and the young bull. ;D
Although if I'm being honest, I haven't evolved enough yet.
Not interested in the hairy edge, nuclear stuff (when in the woods with things with claws, fangs, tusks, speed and or disproportionate to me power) anymore. However the legitamit real 10mm stuff works just fine for me. I practice a decent amount with my woods carry loads so I'm confident (not cocky) with my choices and abilities. Sometimes you do everything perfectly and things still don't go your way. Sometimes you screw everything up and things still come out aces. I'll pass on the weak sauce unless I've chosen to carry 40s&w or 9mm (which I do on occassion) and own the responsibility whatever the outcome.
Life is culmination of choices and each of them come with consequence (intended and unintended).
Quote from: Rojo27 on April 19 2020 06:45:17 PM MDT
Reading though the posts in this tread, I was going to make this point. If you go from middle of the pack to top five when moving from 10mm to 40s&w...... Then stands to reason 9mm is the way to go in USPSA matches.
Ya...it's been pointed out to me by a couple people that if I actually put a little skin in the game I might be a player...albeit a very minor one. After years of just strapping a leather pancake holster to my pants belt at matches I finally bought a "real" gun belt and a $20 Blade-Tech kydex holster just for USPSA. It
did reduce draw time somewhat...
But every time I pick up a piece of 9mm brass I think "so...you guys actually spend time reloading these things?" I don't know...they just seem too small to even bother with unless you have a progressive press and can crank them out while watching Simpson re-runs.
I suppose if I had a 9mm other than a Glock 26 I might reconsider, but I use USPSA as a platform to practice with guns I actually cary, and I really don't foresee carrying a 9mm in the next ten years. I think the .40 is ballistically superior (significantly), and while I might shoot a 9mm a little faster, I can shoot a .40 fast enough that I see no good reason to change.
Shooting matches are something that, for me, probably have an inverse relationship between commitment and enjoyment. I guess it's probably like golf (never golfed, but watched people do it)...all fun in the sun on your day off until you start taking it seriously and obsessing over the score, at which point it's both the worst and most expensive part of the whole week.
This afternoon I shot 300 rounds of 10mm at regulation Steel Challenge 10" disks. I knocked the disks off of the hangars seven times...there's just no other calibre that ever does that. So fun.
Absolutely, I don't compete, but it's tough to beat the big fun shooting 10's 😀
So I was considering a Glock 29 for those times when it just doesn't seem worth hauling the Glock 20 around.
Then I got to considering how much I'd have to de-rate a woods load for it to be controllable in a gun that small.
Once I got done thinking about that, I concluded that it probably made more sense to load up some hot 180 grain hard cast for my Glock 27 and I'd be at the exact same spot, just $600 richer.
Sure wish Glock made something in-between the 20 and the 29. I'd even vote for a single-stack if it had enough grip for all my fingers to get a purchase.
Glock 29 with a pearce grip extension adds a place for you full hand, adds 2 rounds to the magazine and doesn't increase the printable size hardly at all. And sure is easier to shoot than my Glock 27.
What makes the 29 easier to shoot than the 27?
I've got pierce grip extensions on my 27 and 26 and I still find the grip pretty sorry. Maybe the fatter grip of the 29 makes a difference?
I too am a fan of the G29 with the +2 extensions. With a slightly stiffer recoil spring I don't find it unpleasant to shoot at all even with full power Underwood 165 grain Gold Dot rounds.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Quote from: Muskrat on April 27 2020 09:53:31 AM MDT
What makes the 29 easier to shoot than the 27?
I've got pierce grip extensions on my 27 and 26 and I still find the grip pretty sorry. Maybe the fatter grip of the 29 makes a difference?
The extra weight and size. The Glock 29 is really the same size as the Glock 19 - a compact, where the 26/27 is a sub-compact. Even with the pearce on the 27 it doesn't fit my hand...Too small still.
Concerning the idea of using a FMJ loaded hot, I don't really see a lot of point to that but that isn't to say there is zero point, maybe somebody would use that for a load focused solely on penetration. The only point where I do think it's useful would be for practicing but only if what you're going to be carrying is the JHP equivalent.
Now in general, I think the sweet spot for most handguns rounds is less than absolute maximum potential but still more than what would be considered typical factory velocities. This holds true with nearly any of them, be it .40 or 10mm or .45. It's fun to see what a cartridge will do and I've pretty much pushed .40, 10mm and 45 Super about as far as they will go, but I don't really see an absolute need for utilizing such loads with the possible exception of using them for hunting, but really never for social work. I think it's about the blend of having more power than "normal" but with enough margin of safety as to be utterly reliable.
Well said 45BBH
Ken
Quote from: sqlbullet on February 20 2020 09:42:39 AM MST...how much velocity increase is needed to be useful?
So, where does that boundary lie for you. For FMJ, or for JHP, how much velocity increase in a given bullet weight makes you turn your head and take notice?
Depends...
If it's practice/competition loads, then I'm loading as light as possible. Usually lighter is cheaper: win-win.
If I'm thinking about terminal performance or trajectory, then it's a cost:benefit analysis...
In terms of percentages, another 100fps from 5.56 or 7.62 (or even 17HMR) doesn't really matter, but it would be a BFD from a handgun.
So, for example, I might pay a bit more for hotter ammo, but only proportionately to how much hotter it is...
Really, I think the best solution is to pick one decent load per caliber, stockpile a bunch of it, and then practice, practice, practice.
Absolutely a true fact!
Quote from: 45BBH on April 29 2020 09:48:51 PM MDT
Concerning the idea of using a FMJ loaded hot, I don't really see a lot of point to that but that isn't to say there is zero point, maybe somebody would use that for a load focused solely on penetration...
So the problem there is that FMJ loads use a soft lead core, and the copper jacket doesn't keep the lead core from deforming...which causes it to tumble...which retards both penetration and straight-line wound channels. If you want penetration use a hard cast bullet. If you want expansion use a hollow point bullet. Hot FMJ loads are neither fish nor fowl...just a target bullet going faster than is useful, unless that extra velocity somehow translates into extra accuracy.
Obviously they can still be lethal, but there are much better choices for perforating anything other than paper targets or soup cans.
I always carry a 200 - 220gr hardcast in mean critter territory, and 165gr Underwood 10mm for 2 legged threats. On a daily basis in an urban setting it's Federal's 124gr + P HST in my 3.8 - 9mm XDm compact
So I got tired of thinking about the Glock 27 vs 29 for a woods gun debate, so I bought a Glock 29 to try it out. Worst case scenario I'll loose $40 re-selling it.
I haven't shot the 27 and the 29 side-by-side, but I put a few hundred rounds through the 29 today and it shot a lot better than I expected. Granted my expectations were pretty low, but it shoots nice. I shot average 165 grain loads, warm 200 grain loads, and real warm 226 grain loads.
226 grain hard cast bullets don't tumble...pretty accurate all in all. I seem to loose about 60~90 fps over the 6" barrel I have in my G20, but that still means a 226 grain bullet going over 1000 fps without worrying about brass or recoil springs. How much better is that than a 180 grain bullet going 1050 fps from my G27? I don't know. Neither load is maxed out by any means, but both are medium-warm to almost-hot, which is where I'm comfortable with hand-loading.
The only bummer is I assumed that the 20 and the 29 would use the same holster...they don't. For some reason the 29 is a wee bit wider in the slide. The tipping point for buying the 29 was that I didn't want to buy a new Kenia chest holster for the 27, but now I'm in the exact same position for the 29. First world problems...
I'll have a thousand rounds through the G29 by the end of the month and a better idea of what the gun really is, but my first impression is that it's a lot more than I thought it would be.
You could always get just the G29 skin and swap out the harness from your G27. Thats was my plain for the RIA FS HC, but Kenia sent a harness at no additional charge 😀
Quote from: Muskrat on May 08 2020 10:38:24 PM MDT... a 226 grain bullet going over 1000 fps without worrying about brass or recoil springs. How much better is that than a 180 grain bullet going 1050 fps from my G27? I don't know.
Find out:
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/bullet-kinetic-energy.php
Quote from: Bimmer on May 09 2020 02:01:40 PM MDT
Quote from: Muskrat on May 08 2020 10:38:24 PM MDT... a 226 grain bullet going over 1000 fps without worrying about brass or recoil springs. How much better is that than a 180 grain bullet going 1050 fps from my G27? I don't know.
Find out:
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/bullet-kinetic-energy.php
Thanks for the link, but kinetic energy is a meaningless measurement of lethality, especially for handgun rounds. People think there's a "energy dump", but there isn't. There's just the destruction of body parts by contact with the projectile.
Quote from: Muskrat on May 09 2020 08:56:06 PM MDTThanks for the link, but kinetic energy is a meaningless measurement of lethality, especially for handgun rounds. People think there's a "energy dump", but there isn't. There's just the destruction of body parts by contact with the projectile.
Of course it's not everything, but kinetic energy is hardly "meaningless."
You did ask "how much better... " and one easy and objective measure would energy.
Quote from: Muskrat on May 09 2020 08:56:06 PM MDT
Quote from: Bimmer on May 09 2020 02:01:40 PM MDT
Quote from: Muskrat on May 08 2020 10:38:24 PM MDT... a 226 grain bullet going over 1000 fps without worrying about brass or recoil springs. How much better is that than a 180 grain bullet going 1050 fps from my G27? I don't know.
Find out:
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/bullet-kinetic-energy.php
Thanks for the link, but kinetic energy is a meaningless measurement of lethality, especially for handgun rounds. People think there's a "energy dump", but there isn't. There's just the destruction of body parts by contact with the projectile.
Glad to see someone else feels the same way I do.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Kinetic energy is like horsepower. It is a measure of how much work can be done. Plenty of high horspower cars lose drag races becuase of lack of traction where the rubber meets the road.
More kinetic energy means more potential to do damage just like more horsepower means more potential to go fast. Whether or not that energy is used to do actual damage is in the province of bullet design. And therein lay the rub.
Since most handgun cartridges product 300-500 lb-ft of energy at the muzzle, most self defense handgun bullets are optimized to perform in that energy range. Get much over that and you either get over-penetration or fragmentation and under-penetration, both of which are bad for actually doing damage in the vitals region where it matters in stopping a threat.
So, KE has meaning...just not the meaning most people ascribe to it.
Well put.
I'm not sure when or where KE numbers started appearing on cartridge boxes, but I bet anything it was an idea from the marketing department. Of all the factors that determine how well a (handgun) bullet performs, KE is almost negligible.
One thing KE numbers to tell you with great precision is the amount of recoil a round produces. It seems most people don't understand that the KE delivered to the target is the exact same as the KE delivered to the shooters hand, less wind drag.
Now someone tell me again about "knockdown power".. :))
Quote from: Muskrat on May 11 2020 11:16:49 AM MDTI'm not sure when or where KE numbers started appearing on cartridge boxes, but I bet anything it was an idea from the marketing department. Of all the factors that determine how well a (handgun) bullet performs, KE is almost negligible.
One thing KE numbers to tell you with great precision is the amount of recoil a round produces. It seems most people don't understand that the KE delivered to the target is the exact same as the KE delivered to the shooters hand, less wind drag.
I'm right with you there... Putting KE numbers on cartridge boxes would be like putting MPG ratings on gas pumps: Absurd.
KE is mostly about velocity (that's the part that counts exponentially), and we all know that no two guns will fire the same cartridge at the same velocity, even with the same barrel length...
Recoil: In terms of basic physics, you're right, but we all know that "felt" recoil has as much to do with the gun (again) as the cartridge.
Technically a given cartridge has the same recoil, regardless whether it's fired from a G29 or a G40 (or it would, if the velocity were the same), but we all know that the G29 will "kick" way more than the G40 (ironically, even though the velocity and KE would be higher from the G40).
I've learned a great deal from this thread, Thanks!