https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayd4sxW_RUA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayd4sxW_RUA)
Harrell offers you some SAGE wisdom & advice from another viewpoint... He is a guy who."KNOWS" what hes talking about.
never hurts to listen to good advice.
I watched this a few days ago while sweating on the stationary bike. I generally agree with this thoughts.
One thing I found interesting was his comment about 380 ammo, and a deviation from his general advice because the standard stuff is pretty under-powered and therefore not suitable for general self defense use.
I guess I don't see most of his objections applying to Underwood 10mm ammo. They shoot more or less to point of aim for me, and aren't marketed with nonsense like 'RIP' or 'ZOMBIE'. They also offer FMJ in 50 round boxes loaded to the same specs and the more expensive defense ammo.
All that said, I will still buy price over hype.
I'm with you on your thoughts regarding Underwood 10mm ammo. For me shooting up 4 or 5 boxes of expensive ammo for reliability testing is not an issue, as it's critical you know it will function properly, as well as being accurate. Sure, no one wants to spend a ton on reliability testing, but at the same time, no one wants their weapon to have issues if a horrible situation were to ever go down.
The best thing for me was a reminder that I need to cycle my carry ammo. It has probably been 18 months, so I am overdue.
Absolutely,, 3 - 6 months max in the winter months for me in MN, lots of warm and cold
I have 5 guns in the carry rotation, all with dedicated ammo, so they don't get quite the extreme daily cycling that would happen if I only carried one gun each day. Still 18 months is right on the edge.
One thing that the Pull-Down Documentations here have shown, is that we could work toward duplicating what we wish to try in our own guns to maybe train and test feed function and accuracy at maybe a lower cost as handloaders. I have always stated that some of these BOUTIQUE ammos have a lot of hype to include their prices...when some cast bullets could do the job just as well...
To each their own as you test what actually works well for yourselves!
We could absolutely duplicate some of the "precious" ammo types that are available on today's market. I will likely continue to use factory ammo such as Federal's HST, Speer Gold Dot, as well as Underwood's offerings / others. The high cost of these types of "precious" ammo per the videos is a bit of a drag, as reliably / accuracy testing is not cheap. I guess my thought process is as follows...your carry ammo better work flawlessly in your given weapon, as well as group nicely. When an individual takes on the responsibility / liability of carrying a firearm, they best get it right
Here's my 2 cents worth....and that's probably all it's worth. I don't buy ammo except for 22 rimfire. I see no need to pay someone to load the same stuff I can at home for far less money. And actually, I can tailor a load to the gun that gives me the best accuracy with a specific bullet/powder. So as far as the boutique ammo, I'm not a player.
Then comes the "cycle your ammo" comments. I strongly disagree with his comments. I probably in my years shot far more in a year than some in their lifetime. WE shot a lot, over 1000 rounds a week and did it for decades. While I still shoot, it's not near the volume. But I happen to be sitting on a lot of components that in some cases are over 50 years old. I still have Hercules Unique on hand, for an example. And guess what? It shoots the same bullets out of the same gun in the same hole. So why would I cycle ammo? I have ammo that's been loaded for over 50 years. Shoots to the same point of coyote at 500 yds. In regards to the hot and cold, sweaty and dry conditions. I probably have the absolute worst conditions for any gun and ammo. It can go from sub freezing temps in the winter (15F) to over 120F. At the ranch, we have over 40 days of 120F+ temps during the summer. It's not uncommon to watch the 10 o'clock news and see the thermometer on the barn still pegged on 120F. And I'm the worlds worst at putting a gun on the seat of the truck in the sun and working around the truck for hours. Sometimes the gun is so hot you can't pick it up. Next day, ammo goes to the same POI. And I'm supposed to cycle my ammo for........?
If any ammo were to be so effected as this guy claims, the 22 LR ammo would be my prime pick. Bullets are never really TIGHT in the brass. So if there is a major effect of air or damp, I would think it would show up in 22 LR ammo first. I bought back in the early 70's several cases of Winchester EZXS Match ammo. Still have a few boxes. You would think by now that if there was going to be some bad effects from just sitting around that the EZXS would be the poster boy. I can load the Winchester 75 and put all of the bullets in the same hole at 50 yds. I can do the same thing with the Anschutz. So where's the intelligence of cycling ammo? I don't see it. And then there is the WWII ammo that we have a boatload of. That stuff in most cases is over 80 years old. It still goes off just like yesterdays handloads. POI is still on the mark for the POI of the sights. If the sights are set for 100 yds, POI is dead on at 100 yds. Even have some 1925 headstamped ammo. Don't have a lot of it anymore but it's Match ammo. Shooting thru a Winchester Garand, National Match, it shoots on the sights and accuracy is better than most folks are capable of shooting. I don't know guys but from my side of my eyeballs, cycling ammo just isn't sound or intelligent.
Okay, that was probably a nickels worth. But it and and 25 cents still won't buy you a cup of coffee, at least around here.
I agree with Trapper6L except I do cycle my carry ammo. not because of its age or storage conditions but because I get tired of looking at the tarnished brass & bullets. ;) I too have ammo that is older than me (69 yrs.) and it shoots fine. my ammo is stored in my downstairs work shop. there is no air conditioning there and the heat & humidity of S. Fla. is supposedly the worst conditions to store ammo. I have shot old ammo that was tarnished with green corrosion on it and it shot fine. (it was an experiment and I wouldn't recommend doing it all the time) I also rarely buy ammo. I trust my reloads and I like to practice with what I carry or hunt with. as far as the hypothetical prosecutor persecuting me if I ever shot a bad guy with it, I can truthfully say is that my pistol was loaded with target ammo.
I'd have to say I generally agree with Paul Harrell's comments, but I think his videos are geared for those folks that are a little newer to shooting than most of the members on this forum. He does not mention things like bullet performance, expansion, barriers, etc. I'm fairly sure we can all agree choosing a SD ammo tuned to a specific gun can be a definite advantage. Winchester white box hollow points may be fine ammo for practice, but I would never carry them in my .45acp 3" 1911. Speer Gold Dots for short barrels are a much better choice, in my opinion, as that's what they're designed for.
As far as cycling your carry ammo, with all due respect to Trapper, I do agree with Harrell, mostly. While I don't typically unload and reload my carry guns often, sometimes it is necessary. I can't remember the specific brand of ammo as this was several years ago, but one was having setback issues as it was chambering. I noticed the setback on the first chambering was very slight, but increased quite a bit each time after. After running a couple of them through my crimp die, the problem was alleviated somewhat. There was still setback if I chambered them multiple times. After dissection I noticed the nickel plating was on the inside, as well as the outside. Perhaps too hard for good neck tension, perhaps the nickel was too slippery. I decided to choose another brand without this problem.
The reason I said "mostly" earlier is that I have had some SD ammo degrade from sitting out in my truck in extreme weather conditions. Everyday I went to work my truck sat on a blacktop parking lot in Michigan. Winter down to -12 and summer as high as 100F on blacktop. After about 3 months I did have some rounds that were noticeably weaker and would fail to cycle the action. Definitely not what you'd want in an emergency. Since I've retired the same gun and brand of ammo have never failed. I've had other brands of ammo where this wasn't an issue at all.
So I would say test and know your ammo. I'm pretty sure Paul Harrell knows this, too, but didn't want to make a 2hr video trying to cover everything. FWIW, I completely agree with Trapper that .22lr is probably the most likely to fail over time as I've had it happen. I also agree that most ammo lasts a very long time. I have a pile of .308 Vietnam era surplus ammo that I picked up for cheap about 10yrs ago. Who knows what kind of storage and handling that's been through. It works perfectly, as expected.
Lastly, I would disagree with Harrell, there are some specialty bullets that are of benefit in some guns. Short barreled .357s come to mind. My feeling is some speciality ammo MAY be worth it, especially if it meets the manufacturer's claims and brings something extra to the table over standard factory ammo, in the particular gun you're using. If not, then it's really pointless.
22 RF ammo is far and away the leader in failed ammo, second would be paper shotshell loads. I can remember a fair amount of the shotshells failing in the late 50s and early 60s. It was still in use then. The primers in that old shotshell ammowere not sealed as they are now.
I agree with Graybeard that setback in pistol rounds is fairly common but you have to look for it as it starts out subtley . My wife and I have a testing system for ammunition where I leave it in the pockets of my clothes and she cycles it thru the washer and also machine dries(~180*) a limited number. And Ive subjected a limited number to swim-- er saltwater immersion. To date Ive seen "0" failures related to these "experiments". Every so often I find some old loads (70s) that fire OK. Surplus ammo, capalist ammo usual works, the others more variable.
As for possible setback issues for carry ammo, I put a small dot with a black sharpie on the brass every time my carry ammo is re-chambered for cleaning, and or other reasons. Once there are 3 dots, it goes into my range bag. I'm sure this is overkill, and a total waste of expensive ammo, but I feel better about it....I'm also the guy that pays a monthly fee to USCCA for carry insurance, likely another huge waste of money, but I still do it : )
While I watched the clip and he says things about old ammo I had a sudden realization that I have old ammo. They are mixed and kept in an eyeglass case so I went through my drawers and found them.
They've been in there since the mid 80s. :o
A mix of 22lr, 25s and 380s. Then there is a 30 Carbine, 38 special, 38 super and a 9mm.
Will they still shoot? I don't know. ???
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTbNbyX8/IMG-20200126-161826.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PN0c3tSD)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQ6Fvr77/IMG-20200126-161553.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3WkVFyF7)
I bet they all shoot fine.
Great, now I'll have to get a 25, a 380, a 30 Carbine, a 38 special and a 38 Super pistols. :P
I have some hand loads from the early 80's and they shot with in 10 fps of the newer stuff I tested...
I have a 38 super barrel for my Witness Match. I bought it with the intention to have it reamed to 9X25 and like shooting 38 super so much that never happened.
A shooting buddy has a 30 carbine Ruger Blackhawk, and man is that thing a cannon. Muzzle blast is impressive. Or maybe oppressive.
Old ammo should shoot fine, even the stuff from WWII era. Ammo is not manufactured with a 'best by/use by date'.
Absolutely, I have some old steel core 7.62 x 39 that goes bang every time, not that it's nearly as old as others have talked about, but still. The only reason I change up my carry ammo so often is our seriously cold MN winter's, as my G30 will go from my super cold vehicle, into the house, and then back into the cold. Considering I picked up a bunch of Federal HST + P 230gr for a great price around 2014, I'm ok with it, plus being almost exclusively for carry, it is critical that it works as advertised
Thanks
Ken
I've got one of the old AMT Automag III 30 carbine pistols. LOVE that pistol as the grips are huge to fit my apparent gorilla hands. I load 13.8gr H110 under a 90gr HP. You can't shoot it in tall dry grass or at night. The fireball is about 12ft round and 15ft out. It's an ear buster. It's also as accurate as any 30 carbine rifle too. Shooting our 6" steel plate at 100yds gets boring after a few shots.
Did a little reading on the AMT Automag III in 30, what a hoot. I need to pick one of these at some point
I have military M118 .308 match ammo from the 1970's that works just fine. It looks to be in decent shape so it appears to have been stored properly.
It shoots 3/4 MOA our of my two Remington model 700's.
Just watched the video. As far as it goes, I think he brings up some valid points. The problem is, he takes everything to extremes in order to illustrate his points. Yes, some crazy light for caliber ammo can shoot to a different point of impact. But it goes to show that we have to test our ammo choice and evaluate. We can either adjust or move on to another choice.
I also find some of his police information to be inaccurate or exaggerated. Again, he takes things to extremes which maybe gets us off what we really would have needed to take from his video. My "experience" here is 30 years in law enforcement. Take it or leave it.
Great point, I tried out some of Underwood's 100gr 10mm Xtreme Defense a few weeks ago, was so much fun to shoot, but the point of impact was very different than say Underwood's 165gr GD
Quote from: Kenk on January 16 2020 11:11:03 AM MST
I'm with you on your thoughts regarding Underwood 10mm ammo. For me shooting up 4 or 5 boxes of expensive ammo for reliability testing is not an issue, as it's critical you know it will function properly, as well as being accurate. Sure, no one wants to spend a ton on reliability testing, but at the same time, no one wants their weapon to have issues if a horrible situation were to ever go down.
I agree completely! I like to know how much recoil my gun will have, where it will hit, and if it will even feed the ammo. I like Underwoods Range Supply for full power practice.
Absolutely, it's not cheap after shipping, but is one of my favorite factory range loads
Ken
Quote from: The_Shadow on January 17 2020 10:48:42 AM MST
One thing that the Pull-Down Documentations here have shown, is that we could work toward duplicating what we wish to try in our own guns to maybe train and test feed function and accuracy at maybe a lower cost as handloaders. I have always stated that some of these BOUTIQUE ammos have a lot of hype to include their prices...when some cast bullets could do the job just as well...
To each their own as you test what actually works well for yourselves!
Remember to note, that my friend whom is a technician for Underwood, said they do not use off the shelf powders, and that similar looks is just a coincidence.
Massad Ayoob told me, the .40 S&W has produced more "pass-throughs" than any other caliber he has used, or seen used in the line of duty. On another note, carrying "Super Hot" ammo from Underwood in my 10mm, will penetrate LESS than the same bullet in a .40. So I don't understand you saying we need to take his advice. Underwood's 124 +P+ Gold Dot penetrated close to the same as the Speer offering, but had larger permanent cavities.
Plus I can't stand Mr pork shooter.
Quote from: Kenk on January 18 2020 11:17:14 AM MST
As for possible setback issues for carry ammo, I put a small dot with a black sharpie on the brass every time my carry ammo is re-chambered for cleaning, and or other reasons. Once there are 3 dots, it goes into my range bag. I'm sure this is overkill, and a total waste of expensive ammo,
I cycle my ammo by above method... Not that I've ever seen set-back on my ammo but also that it remains fairly new ( prob once a year )
The other good thing is that it gives me practice ammo the same as I carry.