Hello.
I am new to the forum, so I will thank you in advance for your help.
I am considering purchasing a Glock 40 to carry for bear protection. I have attempted to do as much research as I can; however, there are so many "opinions" it gets a little crazy. Can any help me with the following question:
Is the 10 mm, with the right ammo, a capable round for bear protection? I would also emphasize that without practice, range time, I'm not sure any pistol will help!
Thanks for your time!!
Black - Sure. Guys hunt black bear with 10mm.
Brown - Dicey. But any handgun, including my Desert Eagle gets dicey with a big brown.
10mm Auto 200 grain FMJ will run nearly 1300 fps from a Glock 40 and has a sectional density of .179.
44 Mag 240 grain Keith from a 4" 44 mag will run about 1250 fps* and has a sectional density of .186.
Those are pretty comparable ballistics and will result in very similar penetration. The 44 mag will cut a slightly bigger hole, but exsanguination is not a reliable way to stop a bear. You are really looking for deterrent pain if they aren't agressive, and a CNS stop if they are. CNS depends on penetration.
Hi Nor. Welcome to the forum.
We don't have many brown bears here in PA but I'll share some thoughts anyway. The advantage of a pistol compared to a shotgun or rifle is you never need to take it off. It is always at hand. This is not true of rifles or shotguns. A big bore rifle or 12 ga shotgun is nearly always a lot better than any handgun. The handgun is what you grab when your big gun is out of reach (or impractical to carry).
I never thought the 10mm was a capable round for bear protection but the reports from Alaska are pretty positive. Of course those reports may be lopsided because only the guys who survived give reports. Kidding aside, the 10mm seems to do well against big toothy things when the bullets go fast and penetrate very deeply. However, it's not unheard of to shoot a charging bear, miss the CNS hit and run out of your 5-6 revolver shots about the time the bear is close enough for an easier hit.
Another issue is recoil. You can practice endlessly with your G40 with hot loaded ammo without issue. Most of us can't do that with a 454. And finally, the G40 with the hottest loads gives you very fast recoil recovery and backup shots.
So, yes, I think the G40 with proper ammo is an excellent gun for 100% carry in bear country. But it is still a pea shooter compared to a 12 ga with slugs with a practiced skill.
I agree, a shotgun is the best protection available. But, tough to carry in certain circumstances. I really like the idea of having a high round capacity and the lower recoil of the 10mm compared to other calibers is very appealing. Thank you very much for your input!!
Shotguns are for birds!
There is nothing better than a big rifle but a handgun can be effective.
I have a Glock 20, a 40 MOS with RMR, 21 w/ 45 super and 21 pound spring, a1911 10mm, and a 44 mag revolver. I am comfortable in "bear country" with any of these.
I can definitely put more lead on target faster with the autos than the revolver.
A 200gr FMJ or hardcast at 1200+ FPS is nothing to sneeze at. They penetrate very well. My buddy pushed two 200gr TMJ thru a 6' black bear out of a Glock 20. Entrance in neck/shoulder junction exited out rear leg. Smashed a bunch of neck vertebrae on its way thru.
I think the 10mm is about the best power/packability/controllability out there. The bigger bore handguns are heavy, recoil is more difficult to control, and have limited capacity.
We do a "charging bear" drill, more just fun practice. Suspended balloon above a remote control car. Start at 20 yards with your back to it. Turn, draw, and fire as its raced toward you. It can be pretty humbling but you can get pretty good at it. Little tip, much easier if you take a knee.
My percentages are way higher with the 10 vs 44, 454, 500s. You won't get a second accurately aimed shot with the 460-500s. You might get 2-3 with the 44. You might get 8 or more with the 10mm.
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Mr Bear,
I really don't think there is much doubt anywhere that a 12 ga pump or semi with proper slugs is in the top tier of stopping big bears up close. Just too much history to think otherwise IMO.
But I could not agree with you more on the position you take with handguns. If I get only a single shot on a charging bear, let it be a 475 or 500. But that is not reality and you expressed it very well. It is a balance of all factors on a charge and for that I cannot think of anything off shelf better than a 10mm. Bigger revolver cartridges are better but cannot be delivered as well.
Glad to hear you do the balloon thing on the remote controlled toy car. Our group does it as well. Shooting a moving target is not all that hard but it is not intuitive. We have watched otherwise very good shots going into sort of a brain failure waiting for the target to stop moving so they can shoot it. It should be standard fair for training but is pretty rare.
Thanks for jumping in. You said a lot of important things with a good perspective.
I've witnessed very poor effectiveness with shotguns in bears. Specifically brown bears. Foster style slugs flatten out and fail to penetrate, buckshot also is ineffective. Only the hard cast like brennekke black magic have the necessary penetration.
A buddy of mine swatted an interior bear in camp with the classic buckshot/slug combo. 3 hits with the 12ga, Bear killed later with the 375, none of the pellets or foster slugs made it into the vitals. A lot of muscle damage to the bear but not immediately fatal.
I'll take a bigbore rifle over a shotgun every time! I have an AR15 in 450 bushmaster running 275gr TSX, a 45/70 guide gun, and 375 RUM and 338 RCM with light mounts and ghost rings. If I'm carrying a long gun it won't be a shotgun.
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Per the other comments I think the 10mm can do fine if you hit the CNS (and it's easier to shoot and carry than huge revolvers) but just remember those comments are specifically mentioning using 200 or 220gr hardcast bullets which have a flat nose and are made of hardened alloy. You'll want to make sure the bullet you choose cycles in your gun reliably as well since the hardcast rounds are usually loaded hotter.
I wonder how much of a pain it would be to carry a Shockwave or TAC-14 with Brennekke 1 3/8oz black magic magnum hardened slugs with a sling. I don't own one out so haven't tried it. It would kick pretty bad but I suspect it can be done.
What would I do? I'd probably just use my Glock 40 with 220gr hardcast since I already have it and can conceal it when hiking. I'm not an expert ... if I didn't mind it or if the threat was high I'd be packing a rifle or shotgun. Those bears are huge. I'd sure hate to kill one out of season as well ... but I'm not gonna be eaten if I can help it.
It's one of the pistols I carry for bear defense here in Alaska. As has already been said, hit the head, neck vertebrae or spine with a good hardcast bullet and you'll stop the bear. Shots to the body may kill the bear but it won't be immediate like a CNS hit.
So, Glock 40 it is. Thank you all for your input!!
and don't forget the wipes when the brown bear charges :)
Yep, a slug with a sling, and a high cap 10 on your hip, and or chest rig should cover it : )
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/09/pistols-bear-spray-stop-two-bear-attacks-on-archery-hunters-in-montana/
A pretty good write-up about some events here in Montana this fall. Bottom line, if an aggressive bear charges in the timber it's going to be very fast and chaotic. I like to hunt by myself a lot of the time but it's not without some risk. Glock 29 loaded with 220 grain underwood hardcast gives me some comfort but I'd rather not get into fray with an 800 lb grizzly. From the article it would seem a sub-conscience familiarity and proficiency with you handgun of choice would be an important area of preparation.
Looks like the same article I read yesterday, shot it in the nose with a nine, but apparently discouraged it enough to run off, very fortunate folks to be sure
It is logical to think an attacking bear does not give the victim much advanced warning. I know you can't carry a pistol in your hand every moment. But if you get little to no time before the bear gets to you, the speed of the draw can determine winning or losing. A handgun buried under a coat or pack strap would be false confidence in such as attack. A handgun that can be drawn with either hand would be a possible life saver. Of course a 10mm would be a lot better than a 9mm.
So here is my question (we do not have many brown bears in PA). Do those of you in bear country consider the speed of the draw under field conditions to be important?
I would sure think so, we only have black bears in MN, which rarely attack, however a quick draw, cupeled with proficient shooting skills certainly wouldn't hurt
I can only speak for myself, but I want my sidearm ready and easily available. That said, you would have to be gunfighter quick in a lot of the incidents I've read about. This also brings up an important point regarding bear spray. I carry it and it rides in a floppy holster like most everyone else you see hiking in Glacier Park. If you are in heavy brush or thick timber and it's not in you hand, it's hopefully in a place where you can draw it while the bear stands on your back because it's not quick or easy to get it out of the holster and safety off. I can draw my handgun faster but I'm no gunslinger. Truth is, I need to practice my draw and sight acquisition alot more.
Every bear encounter is different and many don't get as messy as the article, but those are the type that give me the most concern. Most of my encounters were interesting but not hair raising. These guys got the full load of hay so to speak with regard to a grizzly bear experience.
Absolutely, way scary stuff!
I'm a big proponent of a chest holster. There are several very good options out there now. If you are balled up by a bear the chest holster is the easiest place to draw from. A chest holster is above the waders and out of the way of the pack straps.
A true predatory attack will be almost impassible to draw before contract is made. It will happen in seconds.
The bear will most likely be chewing on your head, a double action revolver or an auto that can be fired easily repeatedly would be better than a single action revolver.
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Exactly, I have the Kenai Chest Holster for my G20 and really like it
It's hard to go wrong with a kydex chest holster. Gunfighters Inc kenai is a very good one. The Dimond D guide's choice is a very nice leather chest holster.
I'd give the kydex the edge in weather resistance.
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An "across the chest flap holster" might make the difference between life-and-death. A heavily-waxed holster and a 6-7" Stainless Steel Match Barreled 10mm loaded with 200-grain Underwood loads would get the nod.
https://youtu.be/WrMmQHSA6Cs
Jump to the 1:35 mark and watch this bear move. 1st time I saw this earlier in the year I thought, "That's a lot of agitated muscle to take on with a handgun".
Quote from: cmtmike on October 10 2019 04:07:57 PM MDT
https://youtu.be/WrMmQHSA6Cs
Jump to the 1:35 mark and watch this bear move. 1st time I saw this earlier in the year I thought, "That's a lot of agitated muscle to take on with a handgun".
No kidding. That's a lot to take on with a RPG!
Scary stuff, gosh
When you have one charging towards you nothing feels adequate. I remember my 375 RUM feeling under sized when getting charged. I had a 458 LOTT built just for backup at the bear baits.
I watched a fair sized grizzly nonchalantly reach down and shatter a 13" piece of pressure treated 2x6 that was being used as a lid on a bait barrel. Their power is hard to imagine.
I watched a grizzly kill and eat a small black bear one time, it was one of the most brutal things I have ever seen, Just the sound was terrifying.
I never go out without a sidearm but more important than all the firepower in the world is an ounce of common sense and precaution. Keeping a clean camp, making enough noise and staying vigilant in areas where likely to encounter bears will save your life many more times than your handgun. The odd freak encounter or predatory attack can still happen, but your odds are much better.
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This 10mm bear shooting took place in mid September and seemed appropriate to post in this bear defense thread.
Alaskans Stop Grizzly Bear Charge with Glock 10mm On Elmendorf-Richardson
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/alaskans-stop-grizzly-bear-charge-with-glock-10mm-on-elmendorf-richardson/#axzz62LP9Pbo6
Quote from: sep on October 14 2019 10:00:55 AM MDT
This 10mm bear shooting took place in mid September and seemed appropriate to post in this bear defense thread.
Alaskans Stop Grizzly Bear Charge with Glock 10mm On Elmendorf-Richardson
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/alaskans-stop-grizzly-bear-charge-with-glock-10mm-on-elmendorf-richardson/#axzz62LP9Pbo6
Thank you for the link. Good story. That is not much of a load with 200 gr at 1041 fps. But at least this once it was enough.
This actually occurred in Sept of 2018. I remember this story and thinking the HSM ammo was an odd choice for the stated purpose.
Did a little shooting this weekend with a few of my "bear guns".
I shot a 4" 500 smith, a 2.75" 44mag, a 3" 357, a Glock 40, and a sig tax ops 10mm.
Hands down putting more lead accurAtely with either 10mm, especially the RMR sighted G40.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191014/f31d97b4ddc757ff3d7d7fdb6fecd08a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191014/abab762c73f3b2cf51e9fe6157ca4574.jpg)
The 357 and 44 weren't terrible, 5 hits with the 357, 4 with the 44.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191014/3043c72c80b04bce58a0912f993b069f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191014/f22b67c7a3a11e25e0978d191399e1a3.jpg)
Chances are high that I'd be bear shit with the 500 SW! One round gotten off. But the 500 is impressive! Maybe the blast would be enough to turn a bear!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191014/7c3ff4f810c8ea46124ba74b23fe1774.jpg)
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The 500 smith, no question, an amazingly powerful weapon. As for on target followup shots in a stressful situation, that would be a tough one...at least for me
Thanks
Ken
As Sqlbullet said, black bears are no problem for the 10mm but grizzly are a bit of a different story.
I live in the Boise, Idaho area. I hunt different regions of my state from one year to the next. When I am hunting deer, and I don't do it often anymore, it is usually the southern desert regions or the nearby mountains. In these areas I carry my G20 for protection and sometimes as my sole firearm. It is perfect for the job as my only threats would be men, mountain lions, or black bears.
Where I hunt elk and moose is a different story. These efforts take me up to the far north. Every year I am hunting somewhere between Washington, Idaho, and Montana, most of it within 100 miles of Canada. That's grizzly country.
Men who have lived and hunted for a long time here don't carry a 10mm in the woods here. No matter what a 10mm shows on paper for ballistics, a .45 Colt with a 300 grain hardcast bullet will do it better every time. And guys who carry .44 magnums in the woods are usually intelligent enough to not load it with a 240 grain hollowpoint.
I don't know any of you guys here but I read your discussions for quite a while before becoming a member. Some of you talk a good story. Some of you are avid hunters. A very small number of you are dangerous game hunters who know what grizzly are capable of and you have no illusions about dangerous game weapons versus a "mag dump" with a marginal cartridge.
I KNOW my .45 Colt will shoot ALL THE WAY THROUGH a 16" Douglas Fir sapling, and my .480 Ruger will do even better. I've never found a 10mm load that will compare. I've had 3 successful grizzly hunts and been the "back up" gun on several others. I've seen a grizzly charge- it's fast beyond comprehension! You're not terribly likely to take advantage of those 10-15 rounds of Glock power- 3 or 4 rounds of accurate fire is more likely with an auto. If you do the same with a true HEAVY bullet, you will have real stopping power.
And to keep the comparisons factual, top-end 10mm heavy-bullet loads have a sectional density of .179 according to another posting here. Both the .45 Colt and .44 Magnum, loaded with bullets of 300 grains or more will have a SD over .220. Now THAT"S real penetration.
I'm not bashing the 10mm here- I've been a fan and collector since the late 80's with my first Colt, a Delta Elite. But it, like any thing else, has limitations. Thinking a 10mm will be "just fine" against grizzly is an exercise in false expectations.
Again, if you're in black bear country your G40 will be perfect. It will be great fun against running coyotes too! If you're going to places where the the bears are at the top of the food chain, get a bigger gun!
My friends are always amazed when we go hiking in Grizzly country and I just bring a 22. I assure them it is all I need. I just shoot them in the knee and run away while the bear eats them. :P
On a more serious note, I just came across this article:
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/alaskans-stop-grizzly-bear-charge-with-glock-10mm-on-elmendorf-richardson/#axzz61zXRCBGZ
Unfortunately, to many 10mm fans fail to recognize that a citation of success can just as easily represent an aberration rather than validation. Such is the case with the 10mm and large aggressive grizzly bears.
Just because this guy was successful doesn't mean that statistically this is a sound practice. Grizzle bears are in a different league.
I guess we don't have as tough of bears here in Alaska as you do in Montana. The 10mm is very popular here, it's also used regularly year in and year out against bears here.
16" trees aren't much of a threat up here either.
There is nothing wrong with your 45 colt, but I wouldn't get to quick to bash the 10mm. A 200gr stout load in the 10mm will get in deep enough with good placement and up the odds that a bullet gets there.
A quote from Phil Shoemaker...
"
The formost virtue of a handgun is that they are portable and likely to be with you at all times. Any handgun beats no gun and a determined person with one should be able to survive most situations. My choice is usually my S&W 44 Mtn Gun as it is comfortable and familiar. I also occationally carry a S&W M-13 357 with hard cast 200gr Fn bullets. i wouldn't feel unarmed with a Glock, Ruger or other good auto but as we used to say in the military - the purpose of a handgun is to fight your way to a rifle."
This guy has more experience with big bears in tense situations than all of us on here combined.
It really boils down to what your shoot well. If that's a 357 or 10mm or a 500 SW it's up to you to figure that out. A lot more people are familiar with the Glock platform. If your shoot a 9mm Glock a lot the 10mm will seem pretty natural.
Remember all of them are a POOR substitute for your rifle.
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Quote from: sqlbullet on October 15 2019 12:35:08 PM MDT
My friends are always amazed when we go hiking in Grizzly country and I just bring a 22. I assure them it is all I need. I just shoot them in the knee and run away while the bear eats them. :P
$.04/ round for .22 Long Rifle... $.90-$1.00/ round for .45 Colt... time to update the "oh sh&t" plan to protect the retirement!
It's interesting to discuss bear defense. I'm certainly no expert and I have lived in interior Alaska on and off since 1985. I have hunted the interior, the north slope, the Alaska Peninsula and many other places in between. With respect to bears, I have hunted mostly Brown Bears which are larger than interior grizzly bears. I have personally killed one Brown Bear by myself and put bullets in five others backing up friends.
I use a 338 Win Mag and friends have used 300 Win Mags, an 8mm Rem Mag and 338 Win Mags. Despite shooting these bears with large caliber rifles, none of them have been dropped, immobile unless they were shot through the spine. I would expect a head or neck shot would produce a similar result. Chest shots and shoulder shots on all the bears I have witnessed were not very impressive. They can still move quite well even on three legs. I'm saying this simply to illustrate if you don't shoot the bear in the head, neck or spine, there is no telling how it will react. They do not die quickly when shot through the body and only need a few seconds to get on top of you and kill you.
So, my perspective is you need enough handgun and bullet construction coupled with the ability to shoot accurately to penetrate the skull, neck or spine of a charging bear to immediately stop the threat. If you hit the bear anywhere else, there is no telling what it will do. It may veer away from you or it may keep coming right at you.
So, whatever handgun you choose to carry, you should practice with it because when the time comes to use it, you will default to your level of training.
So, what do I carry? It depends, if I am big game hunting I'm carrying a rifle. If I'm fishing or dipnetting salmon or ATV riding I carry a pistol.
One of our local old timers here in Fairbanks is named Joe Nava and he has taught bear defense courses for all manner of agencies for decades. He prefers the 357 Magnum with 158 grain jacketed softpoints. He says he has shot through bear skulls, moose skulls, steer and bison skulls with his and it is enough gun for head shots. He believes you should take your first shot at the charging bear at 20 feet. The bullet will blow right through the skull. Why 20 feet? Because it may just be bluff charging you and up here, if you shoot a bear at 50 yards and try to say it was in defense of life or property you're gonna have some "splainin" to do when the state troopers arrive.
Personally, I prefer either a 10MM with 200 grain hardcast loads or my S&W 629 with 240 grain hardcast. I choose those calibers and loads because I can shoot them well and can make a followup shot(s) reasonably well. I don't think i could do that with larger big bore revolvers. So, I stick with what i can shoot well and I shoot handguns almost every weekend during the winter months.
I know four people who killed bears in defense of life and property. Three used rifles and one used a handgun. The handgun shooter told me he shot the small griz as it came at him on a riverbank. He fired one shot from his 44 magnum shooting 240 grain Hornady XTPs. He told me the bullet blew right through the skull and lodged in the body of the bear. Bear skulls aren't that tough to shoot through...if you can hit them.
So, enjoy your time in the woods with whatever you decide to carry...it just may save your life.
Sep-
My experience has mirrored yours. I've only seen one bear dropped like someone hit the off switch. A 7' sow shot thru the neck/ shoulder junction straight down thru the vital at 15 yards from a tree stand over bait. Hit with a 450gr TSX out of a 458 Lott.
Another buddy one shot flopped one with a 375 H&H. Bullet entered below the chin, took out several inches of vertebrae.
No handgun is getting the job done on horsepower, it's all about placement.
I was at the Russian river several years ago when a GI DLP'd a bear with a beretta 92 9mm. I'm not sure if he got all 15 off but it sounded like a firefight. Stopped it with a head shot.
Shoot as big as you can shoot well.
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Apologies for reposting an article that had already been linked. Guess I am getting old.
You asked specially about the Glock 40. I have both the 40 and the 20 and if I had to pick, for protection, not hunting, I would and do carry the 20. I also have a number of 44 Mags and a 500. I still carry the 20. 15 round mags...
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