Was shooting the Kimber target II a couple of days ago and was having feed issues big-time. It occurred when ever I tried to feed the first round after inserting the mag. I would say it was 8 or 10 rounds that I couldn't feed. Once I got it to feed a round it shot very good and then fed OK on the next round. I was shooting\testing 3 different rounds 180g JHP 8.0g 8.3g 9.0g Power Pistol all 1.25 cart overall length and measured after the width was all .42 per spec. Shot some of these rounds before with no problems so don't understand what the issue was this time. One other thing to note the non feeding rounds seem to stick half way to battery?? Checked the gun and mag all seemed OK. I will shoot some more to see what the problem might be. Craig
Craig, not sure what you are experiencing exactly, the cartridges seem to be right as described. May have just been a quirk. Did you tap the magazine as you loaded it to insure the cartridges were fully to the rear of the box?
Check the breech face for smoothness or any abnormalities and extractor to see if the casings will slide up and under.
Good luck with the issues...
Craig,
I have had similar troubles with my Kimber Target II. It sounds like what you're trying to describe is a round that won't go all the way into battery, or "failure to feed". Mine occasionally does it when the incoming round gets jammed between the extractor hook, the top of the feed ramp, and the "roof" of the chamber. A "3-point jam" if you will. I believe it is the extractor, & one day I will muster the courage to remove it & put a file on it. Mine is just a range toy & the issue is frustrating, indeed, but it's still a great gun to shoot, when it works. Good luck.
Well I'll ask the question. How old are your springs? Kimber recommends changing the springs every year. Sounds to me like the recoil spring is getting lazy and needs replacement. I'll also state I think their recommendation is a little too much but if the springs are more than 3 years old, I'd be looking for new ones. Per Dennis at Kimber, the springs are to be replaced regardless if you shoot the gun or not. Considering how cheap springs are, that's where I would start for the fix.
This KImber is very new maybe 2 years old. The slide is very hard to pull back and I have to manually cock it first before racking the slide. I have oiled it and it is better but still very hard to pull back on the slide. This gun ran fine last time I had it out so was looking at the rounds as the culprit. Really only 100 rounds run through it if that many. Craig
Ok. Barrage of questions time. Some are for clarification of my assumptions, others are follow-ups to those assumptions and may be invalidated by a previous response.
About the malfuntions and the gun:
1. Can you confirm that all the jams occurred when releasing the slide on a fresh magazine (first round)
a. If the slide was locked open, was it released by depressing the slide stop lever?
b. If the slide was not released by the slide stop lever, or if the slide was not open, are you certain you didn't "ride" the slide forward?
2. Was the jam a typical three point jam, bolt over base jam or other? (Sounds like 3-point based on the description)
3. Do you have a flat bottom firing pin stop installed?
4. What strength of recoil spring is installed?
5. How old are the magazine springs?
6. When was the last time the gun was field stripped?
7. Detail stripped?
And about the ammo:
8. Does the same issue occur with factory ammo? (I get that you may not have any, I don't)
9. Did the reloads get tested in a case gauge? ( See that they were measured by caliper as in spec, but a case gauge may show different results)
10. How does the ammo perform in other 10mm firearms? (Again, this may not be an option)
A 3-point jam is characterized by a round that is partially fed into the chamber. The three points of contact are the case rim against the breach face, the bullet/case mouth against the top of the chamber and the case wall against the feed ramp/bottom of chamber. The head of the round is below it's final chamber position and the jam is resolved usually by tugging the slide a millimeter or two to the rear and releasing.
Assuming this correctly defines the behavior and that it is on the "charging" round then this is caused by insufficient slide momentum or by a geometry issue in the gun or with the ammo. It can also be caused by a weak magazine spring, though a weak spring will manifest less often when charging of the gun and more often mid-magazine.
Insufficient slide momentum can be caused by not releasing the slide when fully to the rear or by riding the slide forward, however slightly. As an initial test use the slingshot or overhand method to release from slide lock by pulling the slide smartly to the rear and letting your hand slip off the back of the slide. This ensures that the slide is fully the rear, and that you are not riding the slide forward. I know this is a basic, but it is easy to fall into the habit of riding the slide (ask me how I know :D).
If the slide was gummed up (looking at you FrogLube) by a lubricant that can degrade over time, then the lube could be the culprit to slide momentum woes as well. Clean, lube and try again.
Same goes for factory shipping grease and oils. These are designed to protect metal from oxidation during shipping and storage and are terrible at providing functional lubrication during operation. Clean, lube and try again.
Recoil spring strength could also be an issue, however, in general even a 14 lb spring should be enough to chamber a round in a properly set up 1911. Probably not the issues.
Geometry issues can be caused by excessive COAL for the round. The_Shadow has written here extensively about tipping angles, especially as they apply to rounds with a large metplat. However, this is rarely the issue with a 180 grain bullet in 10mm and 1.250" is a very reasonable COAL for a 180 grain RN, TC or JHP design.
The final issue can be actual geometry in the gun. And this is beyond my skill set to explain.
sqlbullet, Boy I will try to answer your questions one at a time. #1 the slide is locked open and I manually release but the spring takes it home I do not follow it in at all. #2 This is a Stock Kimber and I don't get extra stuff like you need to make the Glocks work. #8 no factory ammo ever used. #9 I can't find my 10mm case gauge. good idea and I will follow up on that. I have a Witness I can try these loads in and will go for that when I can. I think this was a fluke of some sort and I just need to try these loads again. Thanks all for the input. Craig
Well I just ran a bunch of rounds through the Kimber and all fed fine. Will shoot asap in a day or too. Thanks to all for the input. Craig
Good to hear!
I find my 1911's to be the most finicky feeders in my safe. Every one has shown a three point jam at some point. They are just a bit more sensitive to tipping angles than more modern designs.
Don't get me wrong, I love 1911's. They are the most prolific design in my gunsafe.
I found with my S/A 1911 TRP 6" that I need to insert a loaded magazine when the slide is locked back. Then pull back sharply on the slide to load the first round. It won't load that first round reliably any other way.
marlin39a, thanks for the input and I agree as that is one of the ways I got it to work. The other was to drop a round in the chamber and then let the slide fall, then put in the mag, Boy I have never had these issues before this time and I hope they go away. Craig
Quote from: gadabout on June 30 2019 02:48:39 PM MDT
marlin39a, thanks for the input and I agree as that is one of the ways I got it to work. The other was to drop a round in the chamber and then let the slide fall, then put in the mag, Boy I have never had these issues before this time and I hope they go away. Craig
That's likely the start of your problems with that gun. 1911s, particularly those with internal extractors, should never be loaded by dropping the slide on a round in the chamber. You are forcing the extractor hook to snap around the rim of the case. Feeding from the top of the mag, the rim slides up behind the extractor hook.
If you have done this often, it's very likely you have slightly bent the extractor and might have chipped it, too.
I gotta second Graybeard on that. The internal extractor on 1911's so equipped does not have the range of motion needed to go over the rim. Dropping a round in the chamber and letting the slide go will definitely cause long term problems. The 1911 is controlled feed and meant to be operated as such.
I only did it when nothing else worked and don't make a habit of doing it. Boy as soon as the heat breaks I will test some more. Craig
Since you have a little time, why not remove and inspect your extractor. Things to look for would include chips or any peening of the front end of the extractor hook. The inside of the extractor hook should be free of any chips, or rough areas, machine marks, etc. You could also check the extractor tension. If you aren't familiar with how to do that there are many videos out there. It doesn't hurt to clean out the extractor tunnel in the slide, either. Pipe cleaners, Q-Tips, even a .22 bore brush can be used for that.
Good luck with it!
My Kimber T2 was experiencing frequent failure to feed when it was brand new. Tried a few different bullet styles of factory ammo. My Kimber is a bit fussy over ammo. I too was experiencing the occasional 1st round "failure to go into full battery". I believe it's from having elevated mag spring pressure on the full mag which causes the slide to loose some energy and not fully close. If I load only 7 rounds I never observe a battery issue. I ended up using some 600 grit sandpaper and some light oil and did some light polishing work on the slide contact areas and the feed ramp. I also polished the inside of the feed lips on my mags. I also keep my Kimber very clean and lubed with Mobil 1 oil. This has made a big difference in my Kimbers feeding reliability. It's taken some time but my mag springs seem to be softening up a bit. Ive got about 700 rounds through my Kimber and it's running excellent . I'm running handloads , RMR 180 RNFP's 13.2 gr of AA9 and i'm at 1210 fps. Excellent cycling, and a very consistent , well grouping load.
Well just lost my whole update I guess. Shot the Kimber today and all went fine. The load was 165g v-chrown with 10g Power Pistol
.Boy was it stout!!!! The most power I used in years but fun and OK I think.It was Alliant max recipe for this bullet so I deemed it safe. but work up as the Kimber is a heavy steel gun. My range is under water so shooting was in ankle deep water. Nice round but I will down load it for the 165g gold dots. Craig
Was looking for something to reload and came across 50 remaining Golden Sabor so I loaded those. I did find something I had done wrong on the first fifty. I had the COL at 128.2 on most which I think gave me problems on the feed issue. If you remember from earlier in the post I was shooting 3 different rounds when I had problems I think this was the main issue and I fixed the 40 or so I had left over from the first go around.I am loading these at 1.25 now. should be perfect but I will report back. Craig
Well one more thing I did measure the other two loads I shot when I had the feed issue and "YUP"you guest it right they were long also. Every thing is now fixed. Boy what a struggle. >:( Craig
Well OK shot the Kimber today with the Springfdield and Sig Sauer. The Kimber shot the worst of the three but I think I am on the problem with suspect reloads. The other two shot so good It was boring after a few rounds. I measured the 10mm when I got home and some are a little fat all were the correct length. I think I need to resize the Starline when I have new never fired brass for 10mm. Hey the big news is I found a brass catcher that binds to your wrist and it will be here in a couple days. Anyway you can't shoot a lot when there is no hope of getting the brass. Boy finding the Springfield in the safe made my month as I love shooting it although I am better with the Sig. :P Craig