I've been loading pistol and rifle since 1972. I'm far from any beginner reloader but I've run into a problem I've never even heard of before. My nephew brought me 1000 rounds of military 9mm brass, bullets, primers, and powder to load for him. I've reloaded tons of military brass before but never 9mm. I cleaned it, sized it, flared it, swaged the primer pockets, primed the cases. Now I'm ready to stuff them. Here's where the question and problem is at. Some of the cases will NOT take a bullet at all. It's like the Rockchucker press hits concrete. If I really put the meat to the press, it destroys not the case, but the bullet. The bullets are Gold Dot 124gr. I put a magnet on the cases that refuse a bullet and they are not brass coated steel. Not all of the cases refuse a bullet, only some. I've looked at the head stamps to see if there was a common denominator- there isn't. Some of the same head stamp and date will take a bullet and some won't. Anybody run into this before? It's a first for me and I don't understand how the case can stop a bullet from going in. No issues with sizing any of them. I've even resized some of the bad cases and flared them again but the same issue pops up- you can't seat a bullet in them. I've measured as carefully as possible and find no dimensional differences with the brass or the bullets. Any ideas?
Trapper the only thing that comes to mind is the cases ae not holding their size after the expander plug is pushed inside the casing is closing or spring back closed...
There's no problem starting the bullet so the flare is right. But I'd have to agree that the case is not expanding to accept the bullet. But you'd think it would be just the opposite. Most of this brass looks like it came out of a machine gun so the cases should be blown open. I don't have a clue but I'd sure like to know what's the problem. It's hard to believe that a piece of brass can literally stop a Rockchucker press just like it hit concrete- it stops HARD. HHHMMMM, I gotta check my stock. I think I'll see if I have any soft lead 9mm bullets, load a couple and see what changes there, if anything. If it loads, it should be interesting to see what it measures as it comes out with a puller.
Any chance some of those Gold Dots are oversized?
Either some of the brass is just too brittle or some of the bullets are oversized or are not perfectly round. Or possibly a combination of the two.
Trapper do you have a 357 expander to try out to see if it will open the cases a little more?
Just got up from playing with it a little more. The .357 expander ball was a good idea, of sorts. I used an expander ball from a 35 Remington RCBS die set. It interestingly measures .356 at the expansion ball part. I could not get a case to go over it. The case mouth measures at the smallest point .355. Seems like that should have worked but I couldn't even get it started. The press, just like it hit concrete. Even pounded on it a little bit to see if that would start it-nope. Yes, I did measure to make sure the case could reach the expander ball and yes it would and have about 1/8" to spare so it wasn't bottoming out on the expander ball.These cases must be made of something mighty strong and probably brittle. I took a pair of 8" pliers and tried to crush the case at the mouth. It crushed but it took quite a lot of grip. The case was NATO marked and WCC 04 that I worked on. But the issue is spread out among all of the brass which is random military headstamps. While I still don't have a clue why I'm having the issue exactly, I guess the message is don't buy military brass in 9mm. I have loaded over 20,000 38 Special in Military brass and who knows how many tens of thousands of 45ACP but 9mm, it's not for me.
WCC is Western Cartridge Company. They're part of Olin Corp. You could always shoot them an email and see if they reply. Maybe spin it as a safety concern. That might get someone's attention.
The only time I've run into something similar was with my Dillon Press and the case(s) being slightly out of alignment with the die(s).
Are the cases marked +P or +P+?
Could the case head/lower body have been seriously misshaped by being shot in some super-violent MG action, so even though the head is in the shell holder, the upper body of the case is "off center" even after sizing? This guess doesn't make a ton of sense if they have been full length sized, but if they are far enough out of spec./off center before sizing, maybe the slight amount of slack in the shell holder is enough to not correct for it entirely.....?
Have you checked the brass thickness at the case mouth (before belling)? Maybe the brass is just too thick in your lot and it's springing back more than expected after the expander ball passed by...
It's a mystery Batman. ??? ::)
As I was scratchin my head thinking about this, the thought occurred..
What if you were to anneal one of the problem cases, quench in water, then see if it behaves better. You wouldn't want to try to use that case for ammo, it would most likely be too soft now, but it would be interesting to see if this softens the brass up. Load it without primer and powder. If it works then we know the brass is much too hard.
Do they all weigh close to the same?
You might just have to toss all the problem children and chalk it up to experience.
I like RDub01's idea. Clearly not a solution to salvage the brass, but it may shed some light on the cause.
Another long shot idea occurred while I was re-reading this thread and thinking about it...Could the brass mouth/neck area be rough? Tiny little burr's that you can't see but are grabbing the copper? Maybe grab the Dremel tool and some rouge and polish up the inside of a case and try it? I know that sounds nuts, but grasping at straws.
Edit to add....This is probably the result of a storage condition or some kind of treatment that some cases received at some point.
Thought about annealing a couple of cases out of curiosity. I have 2 propane torches, neither can be found. Trouble is I have too much crap. I have a garage full of tools, a reloading room full of tools, and a shop full of tools. I have several of everything, I think. One of the torches is still in the plastic wrap retail package- I've never used it. So I think tomorrow I'm going to fire up the gas grill- I only have one of those, and just use a pair of pliers or something like that to hold on the flame and then throw it in a glass of water.
I've checked, rechecked, measured, remeasured, I can't find any difference except the cases are stronger than steel and I don't have near enough body weight at 280lb to seat a bullet in one. I've worked with steel cases for the State Gov't, the former ADC to be exact. These cases are totally different cause the steel cases will resize, it just takes a little more muscle. Short of a D9 Cat, I haven't found anything to load these things right.
Another thing I'm going to try tomorrow is a different press. Can't imagine anything wrong with the ol' Rockchucker but you never know. It's had probably close to a millions rounds go thru it over the last 48 years. Still works like usual for everything else I load for like the 10mm. I just got 500 rounds of Starline brass and it went thru the press slick as glass. But I'm going to try a different press tomorrow anyway. Got to be something some where wrong but I have no clue where or what. Now that I think of it, I also have another set of 9mm dies to use with the other press. Should get interesting.....or not.
Did something get stuck inside of the die by chance? Something break off inside the die? Or will it still work with regular cases?
Very strange situation! ???
Everything works fine with the Remington +P brass I normally buy. Loaded some of that last week for test loads in a Kimber Pro Carry II. Haven't had the time to run them thru the gun yet but I expect it will shoot good enough. No issues with sizing or bullet seating with that Remington brass, about 100 rounds worth.
Quote from: Trapper6L on January 25 2019 05:38:50 PM MST
Trouble is I have too much crap. I have a garage full of tools, a reloading room full of tools, and a shop full of tools. I have several of everything, I think. One of the torches is still in the plastic wrap retail package- I've never used it.
I hear ya. I spent the morning looking for a new in box welding helmet I bought on sale a year or two back. I want to do some welding today and one of my son's wants to learn. I can only find my one ratty old helmet.
Looks like I driving over to harbor freight to buy another of something I know I have!
I swear years ago I read SOMETHING about MG 9mm ammo having tough brass, thicker but mangy or something......... ;D
Look inside the cases. Any chance you've encountered any with stepped brass? Maxxtech and Ammoload are examples of offending headstamps. Total crap.
Good photo of one here.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?375549-The-mother-of-all-stepped-9-mm-brass-cases
Edited to add: WCC brass is good stuff. Not an example of stepped brass. If your issues occur with this brass, then something else is mechanically going on. It's not the brass.
Hey Trapper, did you ever figure out what was the cause of this?
Never did find out what the deal is. I had 2 other guys that are old like me that have been competition shooters too to look at it. They scratched their head like me. I also tried different bullets but still wouldn't load. Yeah, I'm aware of stepped brass and there was a few of those mixed in with this batch of brass. My nephew was an armorer in the Army and I asked him about MG 9mm brass. He said it's all the same as the brass isn't subject to extreme pressures in a 9mm round, even in a machine gun. No where near the 64,000 PSI limit of the brass cases. But yes, MG ammo is hotter just not hot enough to need heavier brass. I have a bud that is the machinist at the family gun shop. He's always into custom chamberings and does reloading for the 1 mile rifles he builds. I'm going to have him look at it next time I'm in his neighborhood.
Has that die worked for other 9mm brass? Possibly the wrong die? The reason I bring it up is there are dies for 9mm, 380ACP, 9mm Makarov, 9mm Largo...
It has to be frustrating, but usually 9mm luger/parabellum is fairly easy to load for. If it is not the incorect seater/crimp die try the following...
The seater/crimp die may be closing the casing before the bullet can enter the casing. Try backing the die out (raising the die body higher) and then adjust the seater plug deeper to see if it will seat the bullet.
The inside of the die is tapered and also has the taper crimp section as well, if the casing is encountering the crimp section. it could close the expanded case mouth and prevent the bullet from seating.
I think the biggest clue is that you couldn't really crush the case mouth with 8" pliers. Makes me wonder if those weren't made of a brass alloy similar to what Henry makes their frames out of.
Thanks for the quick response. I hope you get it figured out.