The below link pertains to an officer involved shooting in my neck of the woods back in July of 2016. The articles author has a great point regarding the need for more officer training when it comes to CCW traffic stops, as well as educating the non- law enforcement folks that are legally carrying.
Thanks
Ken
https://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/article/can-learn-castile-shooting/?utm_content=buffer8681b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
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I think both LE and civilian sides are in need of more training. I know that in my case I want all the training I can as I have exhausted all the courses I can take. Lots of the available training I want to have in expensive in addition to being a long distance from me.
Absolutely agree, Thanks Chefgerg
I dont understand why SOME cops treat you like a criminal. If I have my ccp ,I obviously dont go around shooting cops. I'm always super respectful, and one night I was still asked to get out. They asked to search my truck, and then I had to wait for them to run the serial# on my Sig 229. I ended up having a good conversation with them about guns after everything came back ok, but I feel it was all uncalled for, just to have a tail light out.
Yep, Lol, can get time consuming, I leave for work at 3am and see multiple squads hiding in the shadows on any given morning. My only real benefit is the same law enforcement folks see me every day, plus I don't speed : )
Carrying or not, the few times I've been pulled over, you will find I turn the lights on the inside of my Supercrew (day or night), drivers window comes down along with the rear door window so the officer can see anything he wants inside the truck. BOTH hands will be IN the drivers window. The officer is in control, he supposed to be, that's the law here. I don't need to be doing anything to elevate his heart rate like giving him attitude. Yep, I've been pulled out the truck and patted down. It doesn't have to be an issue with the truck or anything to do with my driving to get pulled over. I've been pulled over, patted down at gun point by 2 DPS officers on a very lonely stretch of road that runs between 2 hiways in Webb County Texas. The reason, they had a truck stolen in Laredo that fit my truck all the way to the A.R.E. LSII top that covered the bed. They knew they had the truck in their grasp but since all of my insurance papers, license tags, etc, were proof that I owned it, they apologized for the seriousness of the stop. I offered to buy then supper in Freer but they refused and went on their way. I don't see it asking too much to give these guys all the co-operation in the world. Maybe to get a conceal license a person should have to do at least 3 police ride alongs so the ccp holder will have a clue what our police are having to deal with. There's no doubt in my mind, I can't do their job. I'd be far too quick to end the BS with some of the creeps. Like my little brother says about trapping "I have a problem, I go out and kill it, problem is permanently solved".
I'm definitely a cooperative citizen. As soon as I see blue lights, I pull my wallet out and have my license and permit in my hand, and do the same as you, stick my hands out the window or keep them on top of the wheel. I politely say I have my concealed carry permit, and my pistol is currently (wherever it is). I give them the license and permit. And my hands are never out of sight. I've only been asked to get out a couple times and that's by a PD that's notorious for having wet behind the ear officers making up for high school bullying.
Quote from: Overkill338 on November 17 2018 11:02:28 AM MST
I dont understand why cops treat you like a criminal. If I have my ccp ,I obviously dont go around shooting cops. I'm always super respectful, and one night I was still asked to get out. They asked to search my truck, and then I had to wait for them to run the serial# on my Sig 229. I ended up having a good conversation with them about guns after everything came back ok, but I feel it was all uncalled for, just to have a tail light out.
I'm calling bullshit on this dumb comment. This may have happened to you one time but this is a very broad statement and actually NOT common place and anyone who says it is is a lier. I would have had issues with my guys if they did this to someone. I have ran into several ccw holders and treated them with respect every time. And I make sure all my guys do as well. Maybe you dont know that cops , a vast majority I know and work with are very much in favor of ccw. I usually end up shooting the breeze about what we both carry and loads. To make a sweeping statement that cops treat you like criminals is a bad statement, think before you type.
Quote from: will965 on November 17 2018 10:10:46 PM MST
Quote from: Overkill338 on November 17 2018 11:02:28 AM MST
I dont understand why cops treat you like a criminal. If I have my ccp ,I obviously dont go around shooting cops. I'm always super respectful, and one night I was still asked to get out. They asked to search my truck, and then I had to wait for them to run the serial# on my Sig 229. I ended up having a good conversation with them about guns after everything came back ok, but I feel it was all uncalled for, just to have a tail light out.
I'm calling bullshit on this dumb comment. This may have happened to you one time but this is a very broad statement and actually NOT common place and anyone who says it is is a lier. I would have had issues with my guys if they did this to someone. I have ran into several ccw holders and treated them with respect every time. And I make sure all my guys do as well. Maybe you dont know that cops , a vast majority I know and work with are very much in favor of ccw. I usually end up shooting the breeze about what we both carry and loads. To make a sweeping statement that cops treat you like criminals is a bad statement, think before you type.
Well I'm sorry you dont believe it, but it did happen. So dont call me a liar because I'm the one who went through it. Like I said, I ended up having a good chat with them about guns. But when I got out he even took my pocket knife that was clipped on my pocket.
When I got back in the truck, one handed me the gun in one door, and the other handed me the magazine from the other side. Yes, plural, two cars for no taillights.
I should have phrased it as "some cops treat you like a criminal". Because not all my experiences were this way. So I will apologize for that, but do not call me a liar.
Oh yeah, in the long run it turned out to be a good thing. My old beater truck (87 Ranger) had melted the headlight switch. If they hadnt told me about the taillights not working, it would have probably caught on fire eventually.
Quote from: will965 on November 17 2018 10:10:46 PM MST
Quote from: Overkill338 on November 17 2018 11:02:28 AM MST
I dont understand why cops treat you like a criminal. If I have my ccp ,I obviously dont go around shooting cops. I'm always super respectful, and one night I was still asked to get out. They asked to search my truck, and then I had to wait for them to run the serial# on my Sig 229. I ended up having a good conversation with them about guns after everything came back ok, but I feel it was all uncalled for, just to have a tail light out.
I'm calling bullshit on this dumb comment. This may have happened to you one time but this is a very broad statement and actually NOT common place and anyone who says it is is a lier. I would have had issues with my guys if they did this to someone. I have ran into several ccw holders and treated them with respect every time. And I make sure all my guys do as well. Maybe you dont know that cops , a vast majority I know and work with are very much in favor of ccw. I usually end up shooting the breeze about what we both carry and loads. To make a sweeping statement that cops treat you like criminals is a bad statement, think before you type.
First off, good for you Will965 for your attitude toward legal carry. Also good for you for taking a proactive stance against poor treatment of legal gun owners/concealed carriers. But, your statement is equally broad and not always correct. There are police chiefs that have publicly come out against concealed carry. There are departments that are terribly sub par out there. It's a big country! LEOs are human beings, just like any other profession, there are some that aren't very well suited for the job. I truly believe most are.
Google Highland Park MI police problems if you want an example of sub par. Broke city, corrupt city government = police disaster. Most of their officers are hired as reserves at $15/hr and many have "resigned" from other departments, sometimes multiple departments, over disciplinary issues. They even had a convicted felon, who couldn't legally own a gun, as a full time police officer.
I had 2 uncles that were LEOs. One had the kind of personality that could get people to do pretty much anything without force. The other would readily admit, near the end of his career, that he was a hothead when he was younger. He also realized that all of his friends were LEOs and he had an us vs them mentality. I really believe that this is the root of most problems when it comes to bad interactions. I think the us vs them mentality is a dangerous downward spiral, like depression, alcoholism, that affects LEOs greatly. I understand why. Long periods of nothing followed by situations that may cost you your life in seconds could easily lead one to believe you can only trust your fellow officers. It's also a little sad that the guys with this attitude don't feel part of the community at large, just the law enforcement community.
Will , I just want you to know I highly support LEO's. I was one of the first people with the blue porch light, I fly an American flag with the thin blue line on it outside. I also have the the thin blue line flags on our vehicles. I know that's not much, but I try to show my support.
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I don't doubt at all the treatment that Overkill338 received. I have heard to many reports of these kinds of stops, not to mention I have a friend who is a LEO and was trained to treat stops of CCW holders very much like felony stops. He took issue with the training, and luckily had the Chiefs support to not follow that training.
I respect and support LEO's. I used to be one. But I don't consent to any search and don't take lightly to unlawful demands to surrender my property. If one demands on threat of force that I allow my rights be mistreated, I will comply with verbal objection. And I will sue.
Better training is definitely needed. And any officer who is not comfortable with a CCW holder keeping their gun during the stop should probably consider another line of work.
Adding...
Mod hat on
Lets keep this diplomatic and respectful. We have all had different experiences with LEO's. There are some comments here that are over the line that I have left in place because they also add context and color to the discussion.
Mod hat off
All the LEO's around here were the high School bullies! :)) :)) :))
Overkill, i wasn't calling you a liar brother, i was saying anyone who would say that this is common place for all police officers... and i have no doubt that your story is true, in 25 years police work i have seen crappy cops. No denying that, and like i said if the guys who work for me ever treated someone like that, there might be hell to pay. Crap like that makes other good cops look bad.
and Chefgerg, im sorry you got bullied in high school, if i was there i would have got your lunch money back, got you out of the locker, help you untuck that atomic wedgie and dried your swirlie hair, i dont like bullies either ;D
Will, at the time, I was tired and on my way home from work, it was about 1am. I didnt know at the time i could say no to the search. Although when you see that on TV, they just arrest you for something and search anyway.
Quote from: 10-7 leo on November 19 2018 05:44:07 AM MST
About seven years before I retired, CCW became "shall issue" here. If someone informed me they were CCW while on a minor traffic stop, I would ask for their license. After that, unless they were acting kind of squirrelly, they kept their weapon. If I encountered someone because of a serious traffic offense or criminal complaint against them, they would be disarmed.
How it should be. And thanks for your service!
The last time I spoke with an officer, I had my 29 in a Serpa, but my hoody was covering it. I told him, and pulled my hoody over the gun. He just said "ah man, you're fine" and we finished our conversation.
Quote from: 10-7 leo on November 19 2018 05:44:07 AM MST
About seven years before I retired, CCW became "shall issue" here. If someone informed me they were CCW while on a minor traffic stop, I would ask for their license. After that, unless they were acting kind of squirrelly, they kept their weapon. If I encountered someone because of a serious traffic offense or criminal complaint against them, they would be disarmed.
this
Thanks Will, but I got even with them I am a better shot than any of them and I do not hold a grudge. It was high school and I never gave them a chance to corner me alone.
Fact is, most cops are good people, just trying to do a tough job. Fact is, there are also a few bad apples in need of more training or weeding out. Broad brushes are not helpful.
I have had one singular experience with police as a CCW holder. I was the one who called them, to help retrieve stolen property I had located. It was a "must inform" state, in which I was carrying on reciprocity, so I lawfully informed police immediately when we came in contact. First officer was cool, but passed me off to a second, who was the bad apple. Basically I was treated as a felony stop. Extremely combative over the out-of-state issue, I finally had to tell him he could call into his boss (sheriff's office) and confirm reciprocity, or I would have an observing bystander call out the state police. And I did inform him if he arrested me (which he threatened to do) I would sue.
Confronted as such he elected to let me go. But he refused to give me my gun and ammo back. I informed him he had no legal right to keep them. He stated "but if I give them to you, you could reload and shoot me before I drive away". I kid you not. So I told him to lock the gun (38 revolver) in my trunk, hand me the ammo, and he would have plenty of time to drive away. So he locked my gun in the trunk, chucked the rounds broadly around (I never found one of them), and left in a hurry.
I wish I was making this up. But this guy was a real exception...but the kind we are always fearful to encounter. I have to say I do not live in a "must inform" state, and if stopped here and the weapon will remain safely out of sight, I'm now conditioned not to bring it up unless they ask.
Absolutely, as anywhere in life, there's always a few bad ones