I just got my Underwood 135gr HPs. All I can say is wow this stuff is strong. I know I saw one test into gel online that said it only had like 10 inches or so of penetration but at 800 ft lbs the shockwave alone has to be seriously damaging. I'm liking it and can't wait for the 180gr GDs to be available again. This round seems like a great carry round and doesn't seem like it will have problems with over penetration. Good Job to the Underwood folks.
"Shockwave" (often referred to as "hydrostatic shock") is not a wounding mechanism. There are essentially four factors in projectile wounding: penetration, temporary cavity, permanent cavity, and fragmentation. The relative effectiveness of a handgun cartridge is measured by comparing the width of the crush cavity (which is determined by the frontal area of the bullet) to the depth of penetration. Crush cavity refers to the tissue that is physically removed by the passage of the bullet. The temporary cavity is tissue that was pushed to the side as the bullet passed but returned to its place and it is not considered a significant factor in handgun wounding. The reason is that handgun bullets don't generate the velocity needed to push tissues beyond their elastic limit. They simply stretch and snap back into position like a rubber band. Human tissue is remarkably resilient. The exceptions to that are liver and brain tissue, which are not particularly elastic. For a much better understanding of projectile wounding mechanics and to disabuse yourself of some of the notions you might have gotten from Bubba at the gun counter, start here: http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm (http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm)
I presume you're talking about tnoutdoors9's YouTube test. He got 10.5" of penetration in his Cleargel media. I've got some issues with using Cleargel. It looks like it gives results that are somewhat similar to calibrated gelatin but I've seen a few tests where it varied a bit from a published gelatin test. On the other hand, my own tests are performed with gelatin but it's not actual 250A bloom photographer's gelatin so I can't claim that my tests are necessarily more accurate. Nevertheless, my results were a bit different than he got. My test showed 7.9" of penetration with significant fragmentation and much less retained weight than in his test.
In any case, the bullet failed to reach the FBI recommended 12" in both tests. While 8"-10" might be adequate for a situation where your attacker obliges you by presenting a full frontal, stationary shot by doing his best impression of an E-type target, it is often inadequate if the bad guy is actually trying to hurt you because that often puts limbs in the way, necessitating deeper penetration. From what I've seen in 10mm so far, 165 gr is my favorite weight for defense. I've seen good results from a wide range of bullet designs at that weight.
tnoutdoors9's test:
my test:
This may be of intrest to some you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tku8YI68-JA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tku8YI68-JA)
I've been carrying Atomic as I like heavier bullets anyway. Have you done any gel tests with that? I would like to try Underwoods 180 GD load.
Quote from: P33v3 on February 08 2013 08:08:28 PM MSTI would like to try Underwoods 180 GD load.
I'ld say they should be a very good carry load. I really liked the results of Raggedyman's gel test with the Underwood 10mm 155gr Gold Dot load.
Good video Shadow. Everyone should watch it.
The too long, didn't watch is this. To incapacitate you need to cause big bleeding an primary tissue disruption. Unless the projectile is moving at least 2,200-2,300 fps, the secondary wounding doesn't matter.
This means a bullet that can both expand and penetrate.
Well said sqlbullet.
I haven't tested an Atomic, yet but I think Intercooler sent me some in the last batch.
Quote from: sqlbullet on February 10 2013 11:05:53 AM MST
Good video Shadow. Everyone should watch it.
The too long, didn't watch is this. To incapacitate you need to cause big bleeding an primary tissue disruption. Unless the projectile is moving at least 2,200-2,300 fps, the secondary wounding doesn't matter.
This means a bullet that can both expand and penetrate.
What do you mean by
secondary wounding?
Hydrostatic shock or temporary wound channel.
If you watch the videos in slow motion, you will see a huge swelling of the wound cavity as the bullet passes through. It is the tissue stretching from the shockwave of the bullet passing through.
In a high velocity round (above 2,300 fps or so) this stretching exceeds the elastic limits of human muscle and fatty tissue, meaning even though the tissue returns to original position after the shock wave, it is badly damaged and will continue to bleed severely. This is the secondary wound cavity. It was not caused by direct contact with the projectile, but by the shock of it's passing through nearby tissue.
While you do see some stretching in "handgun" cartridges like the 10mm, it is not enough to cause the kind of tissue disruption needed. It will not contribute significantly to blood loss or loss of motor control. It will manifest in an ache the next day like you were punched hard.
Thanks! I agree except for the ~2300 fps part. For example I've seen the difference in wounding between 38 Special +P hollow point loads and 147gr 9mm hollow point loads compared to hot factory 357 Magnum 125gr hollow point loads and hot 135gr and 155gr 10mm factory loads. The difference, depending on shot placement, ranges from noticeable to big difference (IMO), and it didn't take anywhere near ~2300 fps to show those differences.
Even going a bit outside the box look at the difference between wound damage of 38 special hollow point loads ~950 fps and 44 Magnum 180-210gr hollow point loads ~1400 fps. There's just no comparison, and that's without getting anywhere near even 2000 fps.
IMO, enhanced wounding throughout the wound track, along with quicker incapacitation (sometimes but now always), begin at ~1350 fps with hollow point bullets in any common self defense caliber/cartridge, beginning at .355 diameter projectiles and going up from there (in other words stuff like 22 caliber from handguns just doesn't cut it in my mind).
BTW, how/where did you come up with the 2200-2300 fps numbers? I've just never heard reference to that range before. I've seen 1500 fps, 1800 fps, and 2000 fps argued before, just never till now the 2200-2300 fps range.
Quote from: REDLINE on February 11 2013 12:34:48 PM MST
Thanks! I agree except for the ~2300 fps part. For example I've seen the difference in wounding between 38 Special +P hollow point loads and 147gr 9mm hollow point loads compared to hot factory 357 Magnum 125gr hollow point loads and hot 135gr and 155gr 10mm factory loads. The difference, depending on shot placement, ranges from noticeable to big difference (IMO), and it didn't take anywhere near ~2300 fps to show those differences.
Even going a bit outside the box look at the difference between wound damage of 38 special hollow point loads ~950 fps and 44 Magnum 180-210gr hollow point loads ~1400 fps. There's just no comparison, and that's without getting anywhere near even 2000 fps.
IMO, enhanced wounding throughout the wound track, along with quicker incapacitation (sometimes but now always), begin at ~1350 fps with hollow point bullets in any common self defense caliber/cartridge, beginning at .355 diameter projectiles and going up from there (in other words stuff like 22 caliber from handguns just doesn't cut it in my mind).
BTW, how/where did you come up with the 2200-2300 fps numbers? I've just never heard reference to that range before. I've seen 1500 fps, 1800 fps, and 2000 fps argued before, just never till now the 2200-2300 fps range.
The "secondary wound" as stated by SQL, is valid, as is the velocity. Pistol projectile velocity range can't do it, and never will. The hydrostatic tissue damage is completely separate from projectile physical damage. Of course, larger and/or faster projectiles case more damage than smaller and/or slower projectiles, but more damage doesn't equate to hydrostatic tissue damage. I think it's also interesting that this affect only appears as projectile velocities pass the transonic barrier, x2, and only at target impact velocity. This may also explain the velocity range for this to occur, as the transonic velocity varies, depending on atmospheric conditions.
Pistol bullets rely on brute-force tissue damage. They either push a large area of tissue through and through (or until all its energy is transfered to the tissue, such as the WFN bullets), or strategically increase their cross sectional area as encountering tissue (the hollow points) and push until the energy is expended. Soft point bullets fall somewhere between the two. This is also why we don't (and shouldn't) use "pointed" bullets in handguns and low-velocity rifles. They don't work.
Hydrostatic tissue damage does not rely on energy transfered from the projectile in contact with tissue alone. The affect is damage caused at a molecular level, meaning, molecular cell disruption is transferred from projectile, to tissue cell, to tissue cell, until the energy "wave" expends itself in a range consistent with kinetic energy the projectile imparts on the tissue as a whole. Molecular cell disruption (rupture) is the result, and the affect decreases as the bullet velocity, within the tissue mass, decreases. This is the affect explaining the extensive tissue damage observed by a 56 grain .223 FMJ bullet wound channel, although the relatively small caliber projectile passes through the tissue with the bullet profile essentially unchanged. No "brute force", no expanding cross section, low projectile mass, and essentially low sectional density. Something caused all that damage, even though the small caliber projectile passes through the tissue, not unlike a practice arrow.
I don't know why you aren't familiar with the 2200-2300 FPS range. This is essentially irrelevant to almost all handgun and handgun velocity platforms. While it can be a factor with specific .460 S&W cartridges, most other handguns just can't get there. Unless you've made an effort to become familiar with high velocity rifle cartridge science (very few shooters/handloaders do), you'd have never had any reason to look into it, or acknowledge it, if you had heard of it. Many/most folks just don't study or familiarize themselves with information not relative to their efforts.
It isn't a "magic number" Redline. Your post reads as if you are interpreting this very black and white. At normal pistol velocities, 1200 fps and below, it is completely insignificant. At rifle velocities and above (2200-2300 fps and up) it is definitely a huge factor. In between, depending on a huge number of variable it can become a factor.
The relevant point for those of use carrying handgun calibers, up to and including, the 10mm auto, is that our projectiles won't still be moving 1600 fps when they get to the body parts we need to damage. Parts of the body that are accessible enough at the core that we will see it don't usually house anything that will matter if we hit. The parts were we need to cause the damage are too deep to reach with enough energy for secondary wounding to occur.
So, we need big, deeply penetrating projectiles. A 155 grain is a great choice. Same sectional density as the 357 Magnum 125 grain bullet, close to the same velocity, more energy. It will expand big and drive deep.
A 44 magnum will certainly convey some shock damage. Big bullet, moving fast, and doesn't slow down easily. But keep in mind, a 44 Magnum 240 grain has 30% more sectional density than a 155 grain 10mm. At it is moving just as fast, and putting down 1300 lb-ft of energy. It is going to carry that velocity MUCH deeper into the target than the 10mm ever will. With a 190 grain bullet, which is more on par section density wise to a 155 grain 10mm or a 125 grain 357, you are seeing 1850-1900 fps at the muzzle.
We can argue the nuance of secondary wound channels in human targets all day. Watch the video. The doctor who has been present for lots of them in humans is very clear that they don't matter at "handgun velocities".
Quote from: DM1906 on February 11 2013 01:21:34 PM MSTUnless you've made an effort to become familiar with high velocity rifle cartridge science (very few shooters/handloaders do), you'd have never had any reason to look into it, or acknowledge it, if you had heard of it. Many/most folks just don't study or familiarize themselves with information not relative to their efforts.
I'm well studied and aware.
I'm happy agreeing to disagree.
Still, regardless what's been covered overall and why, I have yet to come across the velocity range of 2200-2300 fps as specifically considered in what has been discussed already. I'm not saying it isn't written somewhere. I was just hoping to be pointed in a direction showing the teaching of that velocity range for the reason it's been discussed below.
Quote from: sqlbullet on February 11 2013 02:33:27 PM MSTIt isn't a "magic number" Redline.
You just made it up?
QuoteYour post reads as if you are interpreting this very black and white. At normal pistol velocities, 1200 fps and below, it is completely insignificant. At rifle velocities and above (2200-2300 fps and up) it is definitely a huge factor. In between, depending on a huge number of variable it can become a factor.
That would suggest to me we are on the same page overall. You don't agree?
QuoteThe relevant point for those of use carrying handgun calibers, up to and including, the 10mm auto, is that our projectiles won't still be moving 1600 fps when they get to the body parts we need to damage. Parts of the body that are accessible enough at the core that we will see it don't usually house anything that will matter if we hit. The parts were we need to cause the damage are too deep to reach with enough energy for secondary wounding to occur.
How much energy are you suggesting the projectile needs to still be carrying through the vitals for enough secondary wounding to occure?
QuoteWith a 190 grain bullet (44 Magnum), which is more on par section density wise to a 155 grain 10mm or a 125 grain 357, you are seeing 1850-1900 fps at the muzzle.
In a longer barrel, yes. I was thinking more of a 4-5.5 inch barreled revolver.
QuoteWatch the video.
I did. Every second.
QuoteThe doctor who has been present for lots of them in humans is very clear that they don't matter at "handgun velocities".
In reference to 9mm and 45 Auto fodder, yes. In reference to 357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, or 44 Magnum, no. Did you watch the whole video? Did you see where he got the info from outside of actual wound treatment related methods, considerations, and actions? My point is, none of it was his. He got all the other information elsewhere and didn't know it because he was a licensed MD of any kind.
Quote from: REDLINE on February 11 2013 04:20:41 PM MST
Quote from: DM1906 on February 11 2013 01:21:34 PM MSTUnless you've made an effort to become familiar with high velocity rifle cartridge science (very few shooters/handloaders do), you'd have never had any reason to look into it, or acknowledge it, if you had heard of it. Many/most folks just don't study or familiarize themselves with information not relative to their efforts.
I'm well studied and aware.
I'm happy agreeing to disagree.
Still, regardless what's been covered overall and why, I have yet to come across the velocity range of 2200-2300 fps as specifically considered in what has been discussed already. I'm not saying it isn't written somewhere. I was just hoping to be pointed in a direction showing the teaching of that velocity range for the reason it's been discussed below.
The number isn't "magic". It's relevant, and empirical. Supersonic velocity creates a disruption in the atmosphere, within a range around the object at speed, consistent with its mass. A jet fighter traveling supersonic can shatter glass at as much as 100 feet or more, and can be heard and felt for a mile or more. A supersonic small arms projectile creates the same affect, but at a much smaller scale, which can be heard/felt for feet/yards. The same affect will happen within fluid tissue, only at a much more narrow window, due to absorbtion by the tissue, vs. the much less dense atmosphere. This affect will occur within fluid tissue, as the projectile is continuing supersonic velocity. Supersonic handgun projectiles may reach a target at supersonic velocities, but that velocity is immediately reduced to subsonic upon impact, or very shortly after, never having reached the mass of fluid tissue. A rifle round at much higher velocity will penetrate the fluid tissue, retaining supersonic velocity through much, or all, of the fluid tissue. Also consider, the density of the mass encountered by a projectile affects the transonic velocity. More dense is lower. A projectile encountering increased density will decelerate at a greater rate, and more so due to sonic friction. The same affect that can disintegrate aircraft not properly designed for supersonic velocities. Handgun projectiles are designed to transfer energy very quickly, and will rapidly decelerate as density increases. While some slower projectiles, although supersonic upon impact, may cause some very shallow hydrostatic affect, it can't be maintained into deep tissue. This is essentially the reason handgun rounds are not effective, historically, unless a vital organ is struck. A high velocity rifle projectile can cause vital organ rupture without ever striking it, and often several inches from the physical wound channel. I've seen these affects first-hand during autopsies, some at homicide scenes (too obvious to not see), and in small, medium and large game I've taken.
Another excellent example of this was shown on an episode of Myth Busters. They fired several small arms into a pool, and found that only the slower handgun rounds would actually penetrate into the water and maintain lethal velocity (a few feet), while the high velocity rounds fragmented shortly after impact, with almost no lethal penetration. The large body of the water far exceeded the projectile's integrity at that velocity vs. medium density.
I posted a link near the top of this page which points to a lot of information on this very subject from folks whose job it is to analyze and predict projectile wounding. The "magic number" referred to by the FTU's paper, Dr. Roberts, and other experts is 2,000 fps. As mentioned, there are a lot of factors involved but typical handgun bullets, including the 10mm do not reach the threshold required to make TSC a significant wounding mechanism.
sqlbullet, I tested Underwood's 155 gr Gold Dot and it demonstrated insufficient penetration.
Quote from: DM1906 on February 11 2013 11:44:11 PM MSTThe number isn't "magic". It's relevant, and empirical.
I realize that's been said already. And therefore within the context of the conversation it's possible the 2200-2300 fps range is based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic. I'm not arguing that at this point as I already threw out my thoughts in other posts below. I was simply looking for any reference material stating the same. It would seem the 2200-2300 fps was made up as general example to make a point. Cool. I don't agree with it, but I would have thought you could have just said that to begin with.
QuoteSupersonic velocity...hydrostatic shock...
I've never bought into a sound wave(s) from a projectile up to the highest speeds high powered rifle rounds like the Weatherby line of cartridges are capable, themselves producing wound damage beyond the permanent cavity. A sound wave simply doesn't do that in and of itself.
A pressure wave, yes. Not a sound wave. I'm not saying super sonic sound waves don't do damage to tissue, as it's proven they can. But it's more on a cellular level at best, if at all, in the time frame common projectiles like the ones were're generally refering to, take to penetrate while still at super sonic velocity. We're talking about something that at best causes cell damage, but does not even cause additional bleeding from a peramanent or temporary stretch cavity where tearing did occur. It's a pressure wave from the projectile, supersonic or not, that causes damage (tearing/overstretching of flesh to the extent of additional bleeding) beyond the permanent cavity. Not a sonic effect.
Hydrostatic shock is simply poor terminology for pressure waves doing what they do. Not the worst terminology in general, but not correct either.
It's not about whether a projectile is supersonic or not in regards to pressure waves. All common projectiles down to the diminutive 25 Auto produce a pressure wave when going through flesh, supersonic or not. The 25 Auto simply doesn't produce a kinetic energy level with enough force to damage tissues beyond their elastic limits, and therefore isn't capable of any damage outside the direct path of the projectile.
Move on to the common handgun cartridges at higher velocity ranges (~1350 fps and up) carrying greater levels of kinetic energy (~500 ft-lbs and up) using hollow point bullets (because they transfer more available energy than non expanding bullets) and we do begin to see varying levels of additional damage (even if still minor compared to most rifle rounds) outside the permanent cavity.
Add more velocity and energy with bullets that trasfer energy well compared to nonexpanding designs and the damage is enhanced further. And further and further yet as more of what's required to build on the force that damages tissue outside the permanent cavity is added to the equation. And eventually you get to such catastrophic level, like with some 257 Weatherby Magnum loads on a normal vitals broadside shot on Whitetail deer, and the whole front half of the animal may have to be discarded.
Hence why some hunters prefer not to go beyond the level of power offered by the 30-30. Sure, a 30-30 produces blood shot meat, just a lot less of it compared to higher powered rifles yet, and it still allows the use of something higher powered than most handgun rounds out of a rifle platform with a little better tradjectory than handgun rounds from rifle/carbine platforms.
You're absolutely correct when you say there is no magic number, especially when considering it's not just about velocity when considering projectile wounding. But to suggest any wounding outside the permanent projectile path is nonexistent to any meaningful level till 2200-2300 fps is reached is simply not true. Nor does it
directly have to do with what's at supersonic velocity for any amount of penetration depth for tissue damage outside of the permanent projectile cavity to occur.
Quote from: Raggedyman on February 12 2013 08:43:26 AM MSTI posted a link near the top of this page which points to a lot of information on this very subject from folks whose job it is to analyze and predict projectile wounding. The "magic number" referred to by the FTU's paper, Dr. Roberts, and other experts is 2,000 fps. As mentioned, there are a lot of factors involved but typical handgun bullets, including the 10mm do not reach the threshold required to make TSC a significant wounding mechanism.
This - http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm (http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm) - is the link you're refering to?
I missed it. Could you point me to where it mentioned 2000 fps? Maybe in a link within the links?
AFAIK the only time anyone in the IWBA every mentioned anything about 2000 fps was where they pointed out that the 2000 fps velocity was required for bullet fragments to create their own meaningful wound tracks outside of the main permanent crush cavity. If you could show me anything else they've mentioned regarding the 2000 fps mark in regard to wounding I would love to get a look at it.
Quote from: Raggedyman on February 12 2013 08:43:26 AM MST
I posted a link near the top of this page which points to a lot of information on this very subject from folks whose job it is to analyze and predict projectile wounding. The "magic number" referred to by the FTU's paper, Dr. Roberts, and other experts is 2,000 fps. As mentioned, there are a lot of factors involved but typical handgun bullets, including the 10mm do not reach the threshold required to make TSC a significant wounding mechanism.
sqlbullet, I tested Underwood's 155 gr Gold Dot and it demonstrated insufficient penetration.
Do you know what they claim happens at 2000fps? It specifically says that the temp cavity can cause tissues that were weakened by fragmentation to tear at that velocity. That is what they say, not that it is sufficient enough at that point to overcome the elasticity of the tissue.
Velocity alone is not the decideing factor here. That's why you have through and throughs without much damage with rifles such as the Dr mentioned in that video. But why is that? The bullet was traveling above the "magic number"? That's because bullet construction and the rate of transfer of energy is what is mostly important. The hydrdynamic pressure must be great enough to damage tissues not directly in the path of the bullet. According to others outside of the Fackler camp, handgun bullets can have damaging effects outside of the direct path of the bullet. They have to have a fair bit of energy and they have to transfer their energy more quickly than rifles. Rifles have it easier since they posses more energy and velocity but that does not mean that it does not happen with handguns. There is no magic threshold, it is linear. Sorry, but Fackler et al have not proven that this does not happen with handgun projectiles.
How are you, Miguel?
Long time no talk!
I was out yesterday....But it has been covered I think. Yes, I watched the video.
Redline, I think we are all on the same page. It just sounds to me like you are saying this...."There is a range over which velicity/secondary wounding becomes significant". But it also sounds like you are saying that such wounding can be a significant contributor to thread stoppage in 10mm, 357 magnum, etc. And I don't agree with that.
Quote from: 4949shooter on February 12 2013 07:31:58 PM MST
How are you, Miguel?
Long time no talk!
Hey Buddy, doin' good on my end. Hope all is well your way! Hit me up via PM when you get a chance, we'll catch up a bit.
Quote from: sqlbullet on February 13 2013 10:03:33 AM MST
I was out yesterday....But it has been covered I think. Yes, I watched the video.
Redline, I think we are all on the same page. It just sounds to me like you are saying this...."There is a range over which velicity/secondary wounding becomes significant". But it also sounds like you are saying that such wounding can be a significant contributor to thread stoppage in 10mm, 357 magnum, etc. And I don't agree with that.
I'm happy agreeing to disagree where our thoughts vary. I think we all brought forward some good food-for-thought.
Quote from: Raggedyman on February 12 2013 08:43:26 AM MST
I posted a link near the top of this page which points to a lot of information on this very subject from folks whose job it is to analyze and predict projectile wounding. The "magic number" referred to by the FTU's paper, Dr. Roberts, and other experts is 2,000 fps. As mentioned, there are a lot of factors involved but typical handgun bullets, including the 10mm do not reach the threshold required to make TSC a significant wounding mechanism.
Sorry to bump an old thread but I just got my first 10mm (Glock 20 gen 3) and just joined the forums after this thread caught my eye since I just ordered some Underwood 135 gr JHP's. So I understand they don't have the velocity to make the temporary cavity significant since they don't reach 2000fps (1580 avg chrono I've read). Let me ask you guys this... my Glock 20 can fire 9x25 Dillon with just a conversion barrel. Double Tap makes a 90 grain 9x25 Dillon that advertises 2100fps out of the muzzle. Assuming it does that, Since that's higher than "the magic number" would that round make the TC significant? Or are there other factors at work? Yes i know its not a 10mm but it is fired from a 10mm platform and its a 10mm casing Thanks.
The DT 9x25's were based on 6" test. The shorter barrels don't yield the upper velocity for the 9x25's, commercial loadings are expensive for the most part.
The TC is usually shallow with bullets of this style, the projectiles like the 90 grain 0.355" dia. were made for performance from pistols like the 380ACP's. Therefore I would think these in JHP would likely have total expansion on or slightly after impact.
Also these shorter lighter 0.355' projectiles seem to have poorer accuracy at distance.
There are some who have pushed the 135 gr 0.400" projectiles to 1700-1800 fps from the 10mm platforms with 4.75"-5" barrels. This is pushing the envelope of the brass based on chamber case support and actually some have blown out the primers. ???
Quote from: The_Shadow on April 24 2014 10:48:17 AM MDT
The DT 9x25's were based on 6" test. The shorter barrels don't yield the upper velocity fosr the 9x25's, commercial loadings are expensive for the most part.
The TC is usually shallow with bullets of this style, the projectiles like the 90 grain 0.355" dia. were made for performance from pistols like the 380ACP's. Therefore I would think these in JHP would likely have total expansion on or slightly after impact.
Also these shorter lighter 0.355' projectiles seem to have poorer accuracy at distance.
There are some who have pushed the 135 gr 0.400" projectiles to 1700-1800 fps from the 10mm platforms with 4.75"-5" barrels. This is pushing the envelope of the brass based on chamber case support and actually some have blown out the primers. ???
Ahh I knew there had to be a catch. Oh well, I appreciate the info. :) Trying to get my hands on some Underwood Gold Dot 155 or 165gr BJHP's as these seem to be the best choices for 10mm SD ammo. Also need to get some 200/220 TMJ's or XTP's for inawoods activities.
The Speer Gold Dots are another good choice, if there were some HST offerings (projectiles not offered as components other than from pulled 40S&W) would also make a great SD round from 10mm.
But hey if the perp is not wearing a vest, they aren't bullet proof! There are cast HP bullets that would actually work well.
Quote from: The_Shadow on April 24 2014 12:22:16 PM MDT
The Speer Gold Dots are another good choice, if there were some HST offerings (projectiles not offered as components other than from pulled 40S&W) would also make a great SD round from 10mm.
But hey if the perp is not wearing a vest, they aren't bullet proof! There are cast HP bullets that would actually work well.
HST's!!! Best SD bullet available imo. I carry 7+1 230 grain HST's in my CCW (XDs .45). I was so disappointed when I found they weren't offered in any 10mm cartridges. So you're saying they won't even sell .40 HST projectiles? You actually have to buy a box of 40S&W HST's, literally pull the bullet out ofthe brass, then load it into a 10mm casing with whatever hand load you choose? Is that even possible to reload a projectile that's been crimped already? I know nothing about reloading but I'm gonna (try to) start soon and buy reloading for dummies or the equivalent ofthat book ;D
BTW the cast rounds shouldn't be fired from a stock glock barrel correct? Because of the weird rifling I think? So I'd have to grab a lone Wolf barrel for cast bullets. I was probably going to get a 6" barrel anyhow .
Every once in a while, RMR http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/ (http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/) will get a run of pulled HST bullets, they will have some pulling marks on them but still perform well. I've only seen them offered in the 0.400" caliber so far and they usually don't last long.
The crimp marks usually don't affect the reloading of the rounds, however plated rounds if they are crimped too deep, it can cut through the plating...that is not good!
Glock says no to lead or reloaded ammo as their policy. Polygonal rifling is used in quite a few makes of guns. About the cast bullets, I shoot my cast bullets from my factory Glock barrels, and accuracy great. Care and inspection is needed, looking for lead build up or shaved bullet material at the end of the chamber that can prevent full chambering of the rounds. Bullet Fit and quality lube helps.