Over the last few days I have been talking with one of Lehigh Defense's support reps. Peter has shed a great deal of light on their products, specifically their 150gr Xtreme Defense bullet. At that point I brought up Underwood's use of Lehigh products and Peter proceeded to tell me Underwood's owner Steve, is actually using the 150gr Xtreme Defense bullet in his Xtreme Hunter rd. At that point he showed me some hog autopsy pictures, and gosh, talk about a wound cavity. The interesting part is that the wound cavity hog picks were actually made by a 90gr 9mm Xtreme Defense bullet, not the 150gr. Barring any Minnesota DNR restrictions, these may be the ticket for this year's deer season.
Below are the comments from the guy that shot the hog
Ken, below was a correspondence from the customer, confirming our analysis of the photos. Yeah, a .355 Diameter bullet created a 1 inch hole with tissue damage out to 3 inches. Pretty amazing for a Solid Bullet!
See Below:
Customer Feedback:
The hole is at least 1 inch across, with tissue damage to at least 3 inches. Not sure if that is from bone fragments, or hydrostatic shock though. The damage to the lung is at least 3 inches on the one side. The photo of the first hogs lungs show at least 3 inches of tissue damage, and there was very little if any bone contact.
Thanks for passing on details of your conversation. Be interesting if you could attach the pictures too.
Here's one of them
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😀
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Depending on which gr the 9mm Xtreme Defender line was used (regular, +P, +P+) it would have had initial muzzle velocity of 1550 fps to 1400fps. Course we don't know the distance before striking target.
The interesting element of those pictures to me is the implications for the perpetual argument here and other places about the actual wounding potential of a non-expanding, solid projectile such as the Lehigh Xtreme Defender line.
Current conventional wisdom points to the only wounding mechanism of a nonexpanding handgun projectiles being exclusively limited to only tissues which the projectile face directly contacts...This is a position supported by a number of wise, experienced people.
Lehigh/Underwood of course asset that unique geometrical features of this solid projectile combined with high velocities provide similar if not superior performance to conventional JHP. Also a position at lest open for consideration by wise, experienced people.
Looking at these pictures in this particular situation, speaking for myself: I see wounding and damage well in excess of that which the bullet face "drilled" through. I don't know anything about fluid dynamics, fluid transfer nor am I a ballistician. However, I observe enough in those pictures that points to possibility of there being something to Lehigh/Underwood's claims.
These pics were from a 90gr 9mm, so the UW 150gr Extreme Hunter is bound to he a nasty rd.
Well, after talking with the Minnesota DNR, the only requirement for Whitetail hunting is that it is a center fire bullet. If the projectile happens to be a copper solid, it's not an issue he said. Now on to the testing phase : )
I still find it super shady that Lehigh and Underwood tout these xtreme lines as so superior, but have never proven or displayed this with any testing. One would think the inventor and manufacturer of a bullet would have oodles of sophisticated testing to display. But nope. Just words and apparently "dead hog autopsy photos". That's really not of any value since there are way too many factors. Size of hog, location of shot, angle, impacted structures, comparison to any other type of round in the same scenario, and on and on. Would a Barnes bullet have the same, less or more damage if shot instead? I'm not sure and unfortunately neither is Lehigh.
Quote from: SPDSR on October 07 2018 11:24:51 AM MDT
I still find it super shady that Lehigh and Underwood tout these xtreme lines as so superior, but have never proven or displayed this with any testing. One would think the inventor and manufacturer of a bullet would have oodles of sophisticated testing to display. But nope. Just words and apparently "dead hog autopsy photos". That's really not of any value since there are way too many factors. Size of hog, location of shot, angle, impacted structures, comparison to any other type of round in the same scenario, and on and on. Would a Barnes bullet have the same, less or more damage if shot instead? I'm not sure and unfortunately neither is Lehigh.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I've closely followed hunting ammunition for a long time and don't recall ever seeing any manufacturer produce the "oodles of sophisticated testing" your calling for. Barnes certainly didn't.
Barnes copper bullets caught on over time with an accumulation of personal anecdotal testing and personal reviews..
Speaking for myself, I'm not convinced of anything yet. I've seen enough ballistic testing & "hog autopsy photos" to conclude in my own mind that there is clearly something going on beyond conventional JHP wounding (only damage is from tissue directly touched by the handgun projectile); however, YMMV. I've seen what fmj wound channels look like and differences are apparent to me. I'm also not prepared to jump on the Extreme Defender bandwagon yet; cause I haven't personally tested it's effectiveness yet. I plan to at some point and so for now, I'm keeping an open mind on the topic.
Thanks Rojo, I'm a bit reluctant too, and will likely stick with the tried and true UW 200gr XTP for next months hunt
My answer is that in years of the past, meat was put on the tables with solid lead bullets before any Jacketed stuff existed. Animals were harvested with spears, arrows, etc.
The animals are not bullet proof if the bullet is of sufficient weigh and velocity to accomplish the task. Incapacitation is accomplished two ways, total shut down of the nervous system (brain or spinal cord) or trauma to vita organs with blood loss which can take time as they bleed out and no longer have 02 & food for the cells to work.
There is no 150gr Xtreme Defender. The Xtreme Hunter is 150gr, but penetration is way too high for self defense use.
Morning Overkill338,
The below email is from Pete Vogel from lehigh-defense. Also, I am considering this rd for deer hunting, not self defense
Thanks
Good Morning Ken, actually our XD's are the equivalent of UW's Xtreme Hunter. Kevin, knows the value of our XD's for hunting applications, so he wanted his customer's to understand that our XD technology can actually be used in multiple applications. When we developed the XP and XD bullets we did so to fill a gap in the Personal Defense Market, then we slowly expanded into Hunting. The hunting market is a tough market to crack, especially with a new technology. Hunters are creators of habit, they have a set-up that works for them so they are very reluctant to change.
However, we have found that Hog Hunters are not necessarily fixed on one certain set-up, they actually love to experiment. I think that's because the opportunities to drop hogs are much greater than a one in a life time shot at a prize white tail. Thus, our XD's were put to the test by Hog Hunters. Actually, I think a number of our customers actually shot hogs to prove whether or not our XD technology would be a solid choice for their Personal Defense needs. Then, a number of customers that hunt in Africa started to pick-up on our XD technology, because they are use to hunting with solids, and put it to the test in Africa. Needless to say, the results speak for themselves.
Sorry for rambling on here, but I thought that you would be interested in a little background on how the transition from PD to Hunting happened within our companies. As for UW's Xtreme Hunter, I have not studied his offering too close, but I would have to believe that Kevin bumps up the velocities with his Xtreme Hunter line. Kevin definitely likes to push the limits when it comes to velocity.
I hope this helps.
Thanks
Pete
My point here is the XD bullet and the XH bullet is completely different. The Hunter line has the smaller front glutes like the XP, with a dip in like a hollow point.
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Thanks, I was just going on what the Lehigh rep told me
Quote from: Kenk on October 25 2018 06:31:13 AM MDT
Thanks, I was just going on what the Lehigh rep told me
I wasnt really disputing what you were saying. I just dont understand because the bullet design is completely different. I also know what Justin (Underwood Technician) told me about penetration.
Xtreme Penetrator - 36"-38" average
Xtreme Hunter- 28" average
Xtreme Defender - 16" - 19"
Nice, Thanks for the penetration info
Ken
Quote from: Kenk on October 25 2018 10:45:26 AM MDT
Nice, Thanks for the penetration info
Ken
No problem. I hope you didnt take offense to my replies.
-Ken
Absolutely not, but thank you for asking
Ken
Quote from: Kenk on October 25 2018 05:48:21 PM MDT
Absolutely not, but thank you for asking
Ken
My name is Ken too, I wasnt mocking you..lol
Most of the YouTube videos show the 10mm xtreme penetrator only penetrating 25-27 inches in gel, and that's usually Clear Ballistics gel which tends to show several inches more penetration than the same round in actual calibrated ballistics gel. The Kentucky Ballistics guy has a video where he shot the 10mm Penetrator, Hunter and Defender together and they all penetrated basically the exact same depth. I suppose if you buy into the "wound track" hype there may be differences in gel disturbance, but the experts would tell you that has no correlation to actual disturbances in tissue.
Not sure they penetrate as much as some would expect. It would be interesting to hear from people who actually have hunted with them and how they compare to traditional solids.
I'm planning to try the Hunter next weekend for our opener, unless I change my mind and use the the 200gr XTP
Guess people can look at the same thing and see different
things.
XH - with the exception of little divot in the face, the flutes look
similar to the XD to my eyes.
The XP has the flatter more surface area face and much nowrrower scalloped flutes
to me.
You can watch a ballistic test by Kentucky Ballistics in which he fires all three different
10mm Underwood Extreme proctored in the same block of clear gel to compare.
When it comes to hunting, as well as many things in life, I tend to stick with the tried and true...Not that is always the best route. I really want to test out Underwood's Extreme Hunter next Saturday for our deer opener, but am having second thoughts, as I have had great success with Underwood's 180, and 200gr XTP, Thoughts...
How many deer can you harvest this season?
Maybe you harvest one with the tried & true. After you got meat in the freezer, you can experiment.
Or change up the order.... Use the Extreme Hunter and if results aren't what you want, switch back to combo you know works for balance of the season.
My friend at Underwood has tried to convince me to change to the X-D as my carry load. I just cant buy into it. I've been carrying the 200 grain loads (XTP & Nosler) because I feel confident in those choices. I've considered the 155/165 Gold Dot, and even the 135 Noslers. The 135 only penetrates 10", but man oh man is it violent!
Morning Rojo,
In the zone that I'm hunting this season, it's hunters choice, but I only get one, thus making my ammo choice even harder
Ken
I loaded up some of the 115gr Xtreme Defense in my 10mm longslide. Went coyote hunting. Ol Wiley stepped out of the brush at about 15 yds, the 10mm barked and you couldn't make a coyote hit the ground any harder. It was a full length body shot hitting him in the chest and came out the left rear hip. The bullet kept going. Per my data I'm getting right at 1500'ps using CFE powder. Accuracy has been 1 1/4" at 25yds from bags. I didn't open up the yote to see the damage inside but there was no question his blood was not where it should have been. It was like picking a balloon full of water. My intentions were to use this bullet in the 10mm and 40SW as carry ammo. It's not going to happen now. I'll load what I have for varmint hunting but the fact that the bullet did not stop means far too much penetration for me for carry ammo. IF I ever have to shoot someone, I don't want to hurt someone over in the next county too. For the 10mm, I'll stick with the 180gr HST bullets I bought from American Reloading as pulled bullets. They shoot great and open up like you'd expect a good HP to expand. The 40SW I'll stay with the 135gr HPs.
FWIW, I also have some of their Controlled Chaos bullets for a 7.62x 39. They'll make you think that junky Russian round is a match grade round. They hit like a ton of bricks. It really makes the 7.62 come alive. When I built the AR15 7.62, I bought a box of 100 from Midway for $32.00. That's just a couple of bucks above most any game bullet. Now, on SALE at Midway, they're another $10.00....on sale. While they are literally ptomaine on feral hogs, killing a feral hog can be done with a lot cheaper bullet. I should have bought more but the Sierra HP will work too.
I fully understand that a coyote is not a human, but then neither is any gel. I guess I 'm a lot of old school here but I feel responsible for any bullet that comes out of my guns. I'm not game for a bullet that has significant penetration for carry ammo when I might be put in the position to have to use it in a public area. For me, if any bullet only penetrates 10", that's a major plus to me. That'll just about be a pass thru shot on most men. I don't want a bullet that's going to keep going. That's one reason the 10mm will now be the truck gun and the 40 the carry gun.
Words of wisdom to be sure, and yes, collateral damage is the last thing you want. As for checking out the coyotes internal damage, I haven't done it either. I've shot a bunch of of them over the years, and they are one mange buggy critter : )
So...I am gonna say some stuff. And I want to give it this preamble: Be sure of your target and what is beyond always applies, even in defensive shooting. And I am not necessarily disagreeing with the words of others.
TrapperL6 has opined that one way to mitigate collateral damage is to try to choose load that does not have excessive penetration. I have long held many internal debates on this subject. Unless you are Officer John McClane and need to kill a bad guy by shooting through your own shoulder, it seems like good advice to stick to ammo that performs within the FBI protocol penetration profile of 12"-18".
There are some other realities to confront as well. Typical defensive shootings yield a hit rates that very low, even at point blank range. The NYPD keeps some of the best data on this topic. This paper (http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf) documents their data as well as data from some other departments. The short version is at 6' and less, police can be expected to hit the target somewhere about 40% of the time. A little better than 1 out of 3. Keeping in mind the rule of three's in personal defense (three shots at three feet in three seconds), this means a police officer who trains and qualifies at least once a year will fire two shots that hit nothing. And that third shot may or may not be center mass. Even 10" of gel will result in lots of over-penetration in a shot that hits an arm.
A common response to this is that often a diligent citizen that concealed carries is trained as well or better than a LEO. And that may be. But, this study (http://www.forcescience.org/articles/naiveshooter.pdf) shows that the gap between a "novice" and a trained individual is only 10% when shooting at ranges under two yards under stress.
There are well and good reasons to stick with the FBI profile of 12"-18". But considering that more than half the shots fired are likely to completely miss, I am not sure I agree that concern of a thru and thru shot is one of them.
Thanks sqlbullet, I have never been a licensed LEO, but did complete my bachelor's degree in criminal justice with an emphasis on information systems and security in 2014. It seems like they said 6 in 10 shots are missed, so yes, training training training is incredibly important
Thanks
Ken
Particularly where NY City has stupid trigger pull weight requirements!
Believe their police department side arms are required to have like 10lbs - 12lbs trigger pull weight and operating in double action mode (hammer fired pistols) only! :o
It's no wonder they can't hit anything and end up missing and hitting innocent bystanders with much too much regularity. :-\
Sounds like the trigger on my Smith Bodyguard, just awful
Here is a video that proves the Xtreme Penetrator is no where close to a replacement for a hardcast flat point.
https://youtu.be/qVwbZ0m2llQ
Agreed; there is ample evidence that definatively illustrates that someone needing 3 feet of penetration out of their 10mm, heavy hardcast is clearly the way to go.
In addition to Andrew's new video...
5pins demonstrated that some time ago.
Kentucky Ballistics has illustrated also.
Now if someone was interested in deep penetration (but significantly less than 3') and wanted decent wounding outside of flesh directly touched by the bullet, Xtreme projectiles start to have their advantages. Course from a cost perspective, hardcast gets the nod on much lower economic basis.
5pins did some testing with a solid heavy copper projectile with a very flat face and large meplat surface which also penetrated like crazy similar to a hardcast. But again for bang for your buck, when deepest penetration is what you require.... Hard to beat hardcast.