TFB video that dropped this evening.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/08/10/guns-vs-bears-2-glock-or-44-magnum-for-grizzly/
Good video.
The interesting thing here is it is the same argument used to justify 9mm over 40s,&w. Lots more control and more rounds in the smaller package make up for less energy.
Glock 20 would be my choice for defensive carry. But I do have a Redhawk if I want a44.
Ruger RedHawk 44 mag is a very, very fine firearm. I too enjoy the 44 magnum, mine is the far less refined and asthetically pleasing Raging Bull 6.5" barrel. Although I enjoy shooting it, days of hunting/hiking carrying it literally become a pain.
These days the G20 & 200gr WFNGC hardcast fits the bill nicely when venturing off road in your neck of the woods (N.E. Utah, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho). Incredibly amazing, WILD, diverse and unbealivable beautiful region. In trips to that area I've seen many bears (grizzly & black), bison, elk, moose, wolf (Yellowstone), deer, countess pronghorn & although haven't seen them in person yet, know cougar are present as well.
Alaska is still on the bucket list! Want to be able to give that trip the extended time, energy and focus that place demands. Too many other irons in the fire at the moment... BUT someday...soon.
I've hunted on the Alaskan Peninsula several times and lived in AK for parts of 15 years. I've seen a few bears on the peninsula that make my .338 seem puny and would take a .375 JRS or the like if I ever did it again. My carry handgun when not carrying a rifle was always a Ruger Redhawk loaded with 320 grain very hardcast bullets, which have been used successfully on elephants. The thing to consider is that if you're forced to use a handgun against a griz you're going to be VERY close to it so the ability to shoot numerous times will be limited and the first shot is the only one you can be sure of getting off. So in my estimation a .44Mag, .454 Casull or comparable are the ways to go and the additional firepower stuck in the magazine of your 10 will be found along with your corpse. If you get more than one shot with a griz charging it's not going to be many more. Bigger is definitely better in that scenario and penetration rather than expansion is far more likely to be the main factor in putting one down. I can not even imagine a scenario where having numerous rounds available is going to be helpful although you might want at least one left to put under your chin if the griz gets to you.
If you were defending against a pack of wolves, something I've never heard of, then the large capacity 10 would be nice but I kind of doubt that's likely.
Hey Sneed,
This sounds right on the money when it comes to an attacking bear, but would still feel better having a large mag of something slightly less powerful. There must be something to many Alaskan guides prospective when it comes to swapping out there 44mag for a G20
While I think 10mm is one of the best all around rounds, if there's grizzlies around I want my 300 grain loads in my .454 Casull. This is one case where I DO believe bigger is better.
I love the 10mm but after recently shooting my .44 S&W 629 alongside my 10mm Witness, the 10mm felt like a .22! :o ; I have no doubt that a single WELL PLACED 10 mm could bring down a brown bear but if I get the chance to go to Alaska, I'll be carrying the .44. like said above, in an attack situation its going to be close and quick. if I only get one shot, I want the bullet to weigh 300 grs. instead of 200 grs. besides, I am a lot more accurate with the 629 than the Witness
Quote from: Kenk on August 11 2018 03:40:02 PM MDT
Hey Sneed,
This sounds right on the money when it comes to an attacking bear, but would still feel better having a large mag of something slightly less powerful. There must be something to many Alaskan guides prospective when it comes to swapping out there 44mag for a G20
Oddly enough I can recall only one guide who carried a handgun in addition to his rifle and it was a .22 in case we came across ptarmigan or grouse. I suspect the others thought if they needed to backup the hunter they had a rifle for that purpose so a handgun was just extra weight. I do not recall ever discussing this so it's just an inference. Also remember though that most guides are not "gun" people, they're guides and their rifle is one of their main tools (along with binoculars and a spotting scope). If something was not sufficiently helpful to justify its weight then it simply was not carried. Thus, I'd be suspicious of a rumor that guides were swapping their 44s for 10s.
Hey Sneed,
This is only what I have been told by a couple of friends that lived there recently, however, I have no idea of the validity to be honest
Ken
This is an interesting article on Sirius Patrol, a 14-man Royal Danish Navy patrol, and their polar bear protection sidearm, the G20
Thanks
Ken
https://www.google.com/amp/s/laststandonzombieisland.com/2015/09/22/the-glocks-of-greenland/amp/
Another video along similar lines...
https://www.full30.com/video/fc1998e08f3bdcf23ae7ffbff03fe511
Good video Rojo. Thank you. The guy makes more sense than most.
I think we have to start with the fact that if you need to shoot a big bear with a handgun in defense, you are in very deep weeds. There is simply no handgun that is proper for 1,500 lbs of charging anger. But if that is all I could carry it would be something I shot well under great pressure. If that is a double action revolver then that's what I'll carry (once upon a time that was the case). But for the last 12 years my handgun world has been 99.9% Glock's. I can run a Glock better than anything all the time. So the choice is simple. G20 or preferably a G40 with 200gr WFN hard cast bullets. I have far better handguns for shooting bears but when life goes sideways my best odds are with a platform I can run in my sleep. Throw in the overall versatility of the Glock platform and the decision is twice as easy. If you are a single action guy and it's your platform then just get a big one you can master.
Nobody talks about it much but if time is limited the speed of the draw becomes a life and death issue.
Edit to add... If it takes you 3 seconds to draw and fire on a bear that is 2 seconds away.... what you really need is to have your affairs in order. Same thing when carrying a gun socially. I have never been charged by anything but if time is at a premium a very fast under stress draw can make all the difference. It is always better to have the gun in hand and sights lined up before the charge but I have grown too old for fairly tales. If you flub the draw you die is the importance here and I have watched tons of guys flub draws in training classes where just a little stress was added. Real world is not practice.
Just my 2 cents on a summer evening.
So I made it to the range this afternoon. Brought the G40 with the almost new 6" KKM aftermarket barrel. Among other loads I shot the 200 gr Montana WFN bullet with 8.6 gr of Longshot (the KKM barrel left no smiles on the brass). 5 rounds chrono'd today averaged 1,290 fps. It is an easy shooting in the G40 and very very fast recoil recovery considering it is a "big boy" load.
It is still a pipsqueak compared to big angry toothy things but the bullet is ideal in profile (WFN) and toughness, heavy for caliber, moves very fast at nearly 1,300 fps and is quite easy to control with speed. Not ideal but pretty good all things considered. Hope to take a hog with this come May.
Quote from: Spudmeister on August 21 2018 09:30:14 PM MDT
Hope to take a hog with this come May.
We hope you do too! May is a long time away, hope you get the opportunity before then.
In SD situations against beasts with great weight (power), speed, and or ability to reorient the food chain with you on the lower wrung.... Deep penetration is preferable above most everything else....
Bet your bullet choice would go close to 3' in proper ordenence gel. Very doubtful you could expect exact same against a wild animal but it'd be very good medicine and work well (assuming you get the drop) in the interim while companions are sharpening sticks and looking for rocks to throw😏. I prefer the 200gr WFN hardcast for that job but wouldn't hesitate to carry your prescription where the wild things live.
I'm with Spudmeister on this one.
I got a 5.5" Redhawk in 44M for a hunting defense sidearm a couple years ago. One buddy I hunt with a lot is a born and raised wheel gun guy, and even though I've been a more practical/tactical shooter his influence carried weight.
After a couple thousand rounds through the Redhawk, I'm ok with it. I got an RIA 10mm earlier this year and it shoots 200gr WFN's really well. While out with said buddy (who was present for a lot of my shooting the Redhawk), he watched me hammering targets with the 1911 fast and intuitively. Well enough that he was prompted to ask me "why the hell do you even bother with a revo if you shot like that with a 1911?!?!"
After looking further, my research leads me to believe (as I've always trained folks) that only hits count in a gunfight.
So everyone can say and do what they will, but the fact that I can draw and fire two mags (including a reload) out of my 1911 faster than I can draw the Redhawk and get 6 rounds on target (tested under stress by a twenty yard run to truck and back to firing position included), I'm gonna carry the 10mm.
And I will agree to disagree with the comment on this thread that "you are only guaranteed one shot".
Think about how you carry, the situation (will the encounter include a tumble before you can draw, is your strong side going to be injured, will you lose the gun on the first swipe of an attacking animal, etc, etc), and you may soon realize that which gun you can print a smaller group with, from support, taking time at the range, may become an argument you don't wanna hang your hat on.
How many of you practice support hand only, on the move? Practice means doing what you hate/are weakest with until you don't hate it anymore. Regardless of caliber/platform, the will to win and preparing for the worst is the foundation of the equation.
Oh, and think about a lanyard, unless you plan on giving up when the fight starts.
Quote from: Rojo27 on August 22 2018 06:16:31 AM MDT
Quote from: Spudmeister on August 21 2018 09:30:14 PM MDT
Hope to take a hog with this come May.
We hope you do too! May is a long time away, hope you get the opportunity before then.
In SD situations against beasts with great weight (power), speed, and or ability to reorient the food chain with you on the lower wrung.... Deep penetration is preferable above most everything else....
Bet your bullet choice would go close to 3" in proper ordenence gel. Very doubtful you could expect exact same against a wild animal but it'd be very good medicine and work well (assuming you get the drop) in the interim while companions are sharpening sticks and looking for rocks to throw😏. I prefer the 200gr WFN hardcast for that job but wouldn't hesitate to carry your prescription where the wild things live.
+2
Yeah I kind of agree, heavier bullet better. But that's still why I want my ,454 Casull loaded with 300 grainers.
Absolutely, prepare for the worst and hope for the best
Because most of my regular forty plus year trips to the deep backcountry of the West for mountaineering have taken me to some very remote places in Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming, Montana and Idaho, over the years I've come to think more about personal safety than when I first began. Maybe it's due to the fact that when young, a person thinks they're somewhat bullet proof. I did but as I've gotten a 'little' older, perhaps I've also gotten somewhat wiser.
Along the way, one time, I had to pull a 9mm out of my pack when we ran into two strange guys about a mile in from a Colorado trailhead in the Collegiates when these guys thought my girlfriend and I were two... peaceful... hippy types and could cause no defense. WRONG assumption on their part. We were returning from a day's long climb and sat down for a quick drink and snack, tired when they approached. I sensed them out from the git-go and when they 'pressed' the conversation, I calmly had to reveal the S&W 3913 and say to them... "I think it's best, and you should agree, that you should move on". They complied! I reported them when we got to town.
Then there have been times in bear country that we saw mounds of recent bear scat dump and knew they were not too far off. At night or very early morning under headlamp on approach, one has to keep their wits... all the time.
I share this because we NEVER know when some strange thing could happen and being older, with all the craziness in the world, one needs to be 'prepared'.
I bought a Glock 20SF back in 2012 and been carrying it with DT 200gr H.C. with a spare mag of Underwood 165gr G.D. JHP. PLUS... always carry bear spray! Always!
There have been times that I almost bought a Ruger 4.2 inch or there abouts 454 Casull with some heavy Underwood loads and some lighter ammo as backup but weight has always been important while backpacking and climbing... so my choice has always remained... for a handgun... the Glock 10mm.
If I were on a horse or had a pack animal along, I'd probably choose a 12ga pump with the best penetrating slugs possible... or a carbine .45-70 with a heavy load. But I'm usually on foot so the Glock 10mm makes common sense... to me... WITH bear spray.
This post went on long enough... just wanted to share some real world experience with the forum.
Whatever you carry... hope you never have to use it... and... be safe! Also, carry bear spray!
Thanks climb14er,
Wise thoughts to be sure. In MN when deer, turkey, or coyote hunting, small to mid size black bear are the biggest threat, and are rarely seen, so the G20 in a chest rig with some UW 180gr would foots the bill. If I were in big bear country, and was not far in, or climbing, I think a 454 on my hip, and a G20 on the chest would lessen my fear of attack, oh, and a can of bear spray : )
Ken
Here is another Glock 20 10mm & bear story.... :o
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/09/dean-weingarten/a-new-mexico-bear-attack-finally-stopped-by-a-glock-10mm-pistol/
Thanks Rojo!
Great article
Wow... tough guy who fought hard! Large Cinnamon bear for the New Mexico- Colorado border. I keep those Critical Duty 175's in my G20 in the house and city. I think he'll be transitioning to Hard Cast either in the Glock or large Magnum revolver. He survived and that's what counts!
Absolutely, and yea, the hard cast for sure!
Black bear was 400lbs pissed off boar; phone booth fight (it began inside of 20'); hunter started the fight 30% short of his Glock's ammunition capacity; decent but not optimum ammunition selection for the purpose it was being utilized; less than 20 seconds from the moment gun was touched until it was all over (during which man and bear locked in mortal combat fell down a mountain together, man had clear a ftf by racking slide and getting back into the fight); added element of hunter' family (wife & kids) being in immediate proximity.....
Yes, hell of a story. Man is obviously a pretty tough hombre, although he's still very fortunate to be alive.
Quote from: Rojo27 on September 14 2018 11:25:30 AM MDT, man had clear a ftf by racking slide and getting back into the fight).
Is it really a FTF if bear hair causes the spring to jam? What's it called when you press the gun right up to the target? I though that was not supposed to be done with semiautos.
Seems like I have read something about this. Arn't You supposed to put your free hand (palm) on the back of the slide (pushing into it) when making a shot like this? Unless I'm thinking about something totally different. I think ultimately a revolver would have functioned correctly in this particular situation
Thanks
Ken
Like most other things in life & death, firearms each have elements of give and take.
Yes, it is possible sometimes for semi auto pistols (such as the Glock) can be pushed out of battery on contact shots. Revolvers can have something (hand, finger, claw, mud, rock, etc, etc) get between the hammer & firing pen and in any case its still likely short 10 rounds to the Glock. In the mortal combat, death match documented between those two combatants anything could have happened.
I'm still very impressed that the man had the wherewithal while locked in physical death match with a large bear, simultaneously falling down a mountain, hang onto his pistol and be clear headed enough to clear the stoppage and get the firearm back into the fight.
For an experienced bear hunting guild, I would have expected him to make better ammunition selection and avoided capacity limiting foolishness. There was another important area the hunter in hindsight might have made a different decision on. The story captures a moment very early in the confrontation where the hunter had an opening but passed on head shots for fear of hitting his dogs. First several shots with the Hornady 175gr were to the bears body. We talk here all the time about the only sure what to put down a 2 legged BG is CNS.... Less than 20 seconds beginning to end. Obviously a very angry, amped up Ursus (renowned for toughness) going to be a challenge with any handgun in the time & proximity of this donnybrook. I'm a dog lover but in this situation and the extraordinarily close nature of this confrontation, hunter would have been wise to have gone to CNS targets well before they were his last resort IMHO.
Fortunately this guy gets to continue living and hopefully learns from some of his missteps. That's one of the great things about this forum. Far from keyboard tactical operators, operating......Stories like these afford us the opportunity to digest and learn from other's close calls and hopefully be all the more prepared if and when our day in the barrel comes.
One thing I took note of....the Hornady Flexlock bullet, which Hornady designed specifically for law enforcement barrier penetration, did in fact penetrate the bear's skull.
Another attack which didn't end so well:
https://buckrail.com/two-elk-hunters-attacked-by-bears-guide-still-missing/
Said the hunter didn't shoot for fear of hitting the guide I believe. Then tossed the gun to the guide. Seems strange..
Quote from: 4949shooter on September 16 2018 04:17:39 AM MDT
Said the hunter didn't shoot for fear of hitting the guide I believe. Then tossed the gun to the guide. Seems strange..
Wow 4949shooter, hadn't seen that one.
While I can think of couple relatively recent examples of bear attacks where the companion used a firearm to shoot at an attacking bear only to hit the mauling victim (2011 Montana mauling victim died as result of shot, 2014 BC mauling victim was hit but survived)....
If I'm ever being mauled by a big ass bear; friends you have my leave and in fact are highly encouraged to shoot it! :)). I would certainly appreciate maximum concentration, focus and skill but shoot it!
Dude throws his unfired pistol in the direction of the other mauling victim then high tails it out.of the area.... Noted the surviving hunter's name (took search teams more than a day to find victims remains). Might seem cold but after this story, seriously doubt I'd be inclined to even go dove hunting with a dude woven with that level of intestinal fortitude & fiber.
As Jerry Clower said: "Shoot in here amongst us! One of us has got to have some relief!" :))
I read a book about the Great White Hunters in Africa and it was interesting that more were killed or forced to retire by errant gun shots than by beasties.
Quote from: Rick R on September 16 2018 08:29:07 AM MDT
As Jerry Clower said: "Shoot in here amongst us! One of us has got to have some relief!" :))
I read a book about the Great White Hunters in Africa and it was interesting that more were killed or forced to retire by errant gun shots than by beasties.
My thoughts exactly, Rojo..
Up here in Montana gun shot = dinner bell for Griz during hunting season not uncommon for them to be on a kill in an hr. I keep my rifle in reach while dressing out game while one of us keeps an eye out.
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Quote from: 38-40 on September 16 2018 05:52:57 PM MDT
Up here in Montana gun shot = dinner bell for Griz during hunting season not uncommon for them to be on a kill in an hr. I keep my rifle in reach while dressing out game while one of us keeps an eye out.
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Maybe keeping a handgun on one's person would have helped in the above case. The separated backpack is not a good spot to keep it while gutting game in griz country.
Quote from: 4949shooter on September 16 2018 05:57:19 PM MDT
Quote from: 38-40 on September 16 2018 05:52:57 PM MDT
Up here in Montana gun shot = dinner bell for Griz during hunting season not uncommon for them to be on a kill in an hr. I keep my rifle in reach while dressing out game while one of us keeps an eye out.
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Maybe keeping a handgun on one's person would have helped in the above case. The separated backpack is not a good spot to keep it while gutting game in griz country.
I agree but 35 Whelen hits harder than any 44 mag
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On the hip or chest for sure, should never ever be out of reach
...I though the funniest part of the NM story was when the guy was jumping from bolder 2 to 3 and the dogs passed him...guess he knew where the bear was at that point...
What is sad about the elk hunters is that guide didn't have the mindset of having a backup gun himself... A friend went to Montana elk hunting last year and his guide also told him that he didn't think my friend needed to carry a backup gun as he never did... my friend brought his G29...just in case.
As to the client who tossed his gun to the guide who was being attacked...what is said, cowards die a thousand deaths, a brave man just once. The problem of course is that the coward just gets to continue to walk among us...
Bob
Seems like a good idea to have a designated spotter when dressing out a critter in bear country
Quote from: Kenk on September 18 2018 06:28:50 AM MDT
Seems like a good idea to have a designated spotter when dressing out a critter in bear country
I suspect a lot of guides will be doing that from this point forward!
Totally, fresh critter blood in the air, gosh, you should almost expect the big boy will come looking
New update on the Montana bear attach fatality, and thrown pistol story......
Clear as mud but we do have a new element about bear spray being deployed but not stopping the attack.
https://www.ammoland.com/2018/09/bear-spray-failure-at-mark-uptain-fatal-grizzly-attack/#axzz5RbdrXJMt
Yea, I'm sure bears, as with humans, all have different dispositions, Some May have such a strong drive, Bear spray is is just a minor inconvenience they are willing to endure
If I'm not mistaken the percentage of capsaicin was reduced several years ago seems like I had a can that was 10% now its 3%. Anyone else recall this?
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Quote from: 38-40 on September 21 2018 12:21:35 AM MDT
If I'm not mistaken the percentage of capsaicin was reduced several years ago seems like I had a can that was 10% now its 3%. Anyone else recall this?
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This is a common mis-conception.
For years pepper/bear sprays were advertised based on the content of oleoresin capsicum. These values would vary from 10-30% depending on the maker.
A few years back an act of congress placed the regulation of the ingredients of products advertized as bear spray in the purview of the EPA. Today bear spray will have an EPA registration and associated numbers on the can, usually on the bottom of the front label. The EPA noted when establishing regulating parameters that there could be a wide variance in the capsaicin/capcaicinoid content of oleoresin capsicum. Therefore they change the measured active ingredient to be the actual capsaicin content independent of the oleoresin. For bear spray it must be between 1% and 2%.
This change does not reduce the efficacy, but rather standardizes and improves that efficacy.
Sorry to make my first post a link, but I've been following this thread and thought this article was relevant:
https://craigmedred.news/2017/06/29/bear-spray-yes-or-no/
The theory in the article is that predatory bears approach with a much different mindset and physiology than a startled, defensive bear. Defensive bears are trying to gain as much information as they can...nose pulling in large quantities of air and eyes wide open; all very vulnerable to pepper spray. On the other hand, a predatory bear has already decided they're going to attack and comes in with nose and eyes in a protective orientation...imagine a bear going after the honey in a bee hive. They've already decided what they're going to do and are willing to accept some pain in the process. Not only does a bear in this attitude get a much lower dose of spray into the areas it affects (nose and eyes), but they've already anticipated and accepted that their contact will probably come with some pain.
I don't know if it's true, but it's an interesting theory.
On another note, I'll be taking any and all information that comes from WY Game & Fish with a grain of salt. They really want to sell grizzly trophy hunts, and one of the touted benefits is that by hunting bears, bears will learn to be afraid of people. This of course assumes that a bear can learn a lesson from dying...Regardless, WY G&F isn't above putting whatever spin on this they think will help them legalize trophy hunting for grizzlies.
It totally makes sense
I'm far from a bear expert Muskrat but the article makes sense to me.
Welcome to the forum!
Speaking from experience (I have both been sprayed with OC spray in training and have used it on humans), the spray has different effects on different people.
Dark eyed people tend to feel the effects less. Levels on intoxication and adrenaline also effect the efficacy of OC spray. I am sure animals (while not intoxicated) do have various levels of adrenaline and determination that differ between other members of the same species.
In essence, what may work on one particular bear may not work on another.
As well as how determined they are for a tasty lunch
The only way I would ever consider a Glock over a .44 magnum for Grizzly would be if Glock made a model chambered for .44 magnum. Even then, I'd prefer a .12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs for a Grizzly. Because, even with a .44 magnum, depending on how close the Grizzly is, you're probably going to end up being hors d' oeuvers for the Grizzly bear. For Brown bear and especially Black bear, a .44 magnum will probably be sufficient to deal with the bear. But, Grizzly bear, no. Unless it is a Grizzly bear cub.
I have read about Alaskan fishing guides that carry a 12 gauge with alternating ammo, first out some 00 buck to soften things up, and then slugs
Quote from: Kenk on September 22 2018 11:10:50 PM MDT
I have read about Alaskan fishing guides that carry a 12 gauge with alternating ammo, first out some 00 buck to soften things up, and then slugs
When we visited a gun store in Homer, the guy behind the counter said his choice for bear was just that. I don't remember the brand, but the shotgun had two side-by-side magazines that fed rounds in an alternating fashion. He said he would load one with slugs and the other with buckshot. I guess it carried at least 11 rounds, maybe more.
G20 saves the day!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/299589237107193/permalink/685978508468262/
QuoteAt this point we haven't spotted the moose yet but has seen the crows kick up, and less then a second after that you hear the roar, from our 12 o clock, and boom freaking 7 1/2 foot brown bear yards 10 yds away and full charge
Quote from: 5pins on September 23 2018 07:02:56 AM MDT
G20 saves the day!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/299589237107193/permalink/685978508468262/
Thanks for sharing 5pins! Hair raising encounter!
"Jimmy" must be a cool cat stand tall facing charging 800lbs+ Alaskan Griz which broke from ambush inside 10 yards, coolly draw G20 & plant two rounds (one to head, one to chest) ending the charge 10' or less from his face.
Absolutely kept his composure...Wow!
Interesting story. While I cary a Glock 20 for big furry things, and prefer it over all other handguns for that roll, I'd certainly bring a long gun if I was looking for a ten-hour-old moose carcass in grizzly country. Perhaps there were game regulations that prohibited doing so?
Regarding the Glock vs .44 debate...I see both sides, and both are valid. For me, a bear encounter is the very definition of close quarters combat, and a weapon that can be shot quickly and accurately is needed. I can shoot a Glock 10mm on target much faster than a large-bore revolver, so that's what I cary. I also cary bear spray in grizzly country, and it is my primary defense where conditions allow.
Quote from: inv136 on September 22 2018 08:20:14 PM MDT
The only way I would ever consider a Glock over a .44 magnum for Grizzly would be if Glock made a model chambered for .44 magnum. Even then, I'd prefer a .12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs for a Grizzly. Because, even with a .44 magnum, depending on how close the Grizzly is, you're probably going to end up being hors d' oeuvers for the Grizzly bear. For Brown bear and especially Black bear, a .44 magnum will probably be sufficient to deal with the bear. But, Grizzly bear, no. Unless it is a Grizzly bear cub.
I thought that brown bears were bigger than grizzly bears. and the Kodiak bear is a larger sub-species of the brown bear. also polar bears are a relatively recent evolution of the grizzly. this info (polar - grizzly) came from a biologist friend who used to work as a naturalist on some of the Alaskan cruise ships.
All grizzly bears are brown bears, but not all brown bears are grizzly bears. Scientifically the grizzly bear is usually called a North American brown bear. Globally there are 15 recognized sub-species of brown bear, and five of those are generically considered "grizzly": mainland grizzly (Ursus arctos horribilis), Kodiak bear (U. a. middendorffi), peninsular grizzly (U. a. gyas), California grizzly (U. a. californicus - extinct), and Mexican grizzly bear (U. a. nelsoni - extinct)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_bear
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursus_(genus)
Another handgun vs bear. Doesn't give caliber though
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/28/hunter-in-montana-kills-grizzly-bear-injures-cub-in-self-defense-officials-say.html
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Gosh, they are just really big critters
Yes the tourist want to hug them and squeeze them and pet them and call them George
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😂
Obviously I am late to this party, but if I was going into known Grizzly bear country, my first choice would not be a 10mm.
I would carry my S&W 329PD loaded with something like Underwoods 220 gr. Xtreme Penetrator or a 300 gr. Hardcast load. If all I had was the 10mm for a pistol, I would load it with a heavy hardcast bullet and then buy or borrow a 12 gauge and load it with slugs.
A good combination for sure
Quote from: tcecil88 on October 08 2018 07:44:01 AM MDT
Obviously I am late to this party, but if I was going into known Grizzly bear country, my first choice would not be a 10mm.
I would carry my S&W 329PD loaded with something like Underwoods 220 gr. Xtreme Penetrator or a 300 gr. Hardcast load. If all I had was the 10mm for a pistol, I would load it with a heavy hardcast bullet and then buy or borrow a 12 gauge and load it with slugs.
where you get a .40 cal 300 grain hardcast?
Quote from: gandog56 on October 09 2018 10:49:12 AM MDT
Quote from: tcecil88 on October 08 2018 07:44:01 AM MDT
Obviously I am late to this party, but if I was going into known Grizzly bear country, my first choice would not be a 10mm.
I would carry my S&W 329PD loaded with something like Underwoods 220 gr. Xtreme Penetrator or a 300 gr. Hardcast load. If all I had was the 10mm for a pistol, I would load it with a heavy hardcast bullet and then buy or borrow a 12 gauge and load it with slugs.
where you get a .40 cal 300 grain hardcast?
He isn't referencing a .40cal 300gr. He referenced that in a 329PD, which is a 44Mag, and this particular gun and ammo combination happens to be exactly what I carry in grizz country on backpack hunts, despite my overall rabid enthusiasm for the 10mm.
My single uneventful experience with a black boar made me read a lot of blog/forum discussions about bear and I've come to believe that a lot of suggestions that are discussed as generalities are actually very location and breed specific. I think the challenges of an online bear defense discussion lie with differences in location and breed. For instance, a 10 year veteran Park Ranger in NC may bet his last dollar that black bears will always run unless the human acts in a negligent manner because that's all he's witnessed and nothing other than bear spray is needed. He's seen it 100 times. On the other hand, an Alaskan native may think a side arm is useless because of his experiences.
I believe bear spray is great for hikers, but it won't be too effective when I'm sneaking into my VA deer stand at 4:30am (and I've got 2 weeks of pics of a sow and 2 yearlings rolling through at 3:45 on the trail camera). Likewise, just based on the muzzle energy, a 200gr 10mm LCSWC moving at 1200fps will kill any bear up to 320lbs, but even a 0.4" hole going through the vitals of an attacking bear will take a little while to convince him he's dead. Safe to bet he'll be gnawing and clawing until he keels over unless you get a CNS shot.
I don't know where the OP is planning on going or what he's planning on doing, so I'll say this: In SE VA or Eastern NC, I'd hunt bear with a 10mm and use it for defense in places I know they're averaging 250-300lbs, but if there's a fabled blackie that's said to be 350lbs (or above) or I'm on the fringes of the Dismal Swamp, the Ruger Alaskan 454 will be on me.
Just my 2 cents.
Quote from: Muskrat on September 21 2018 09:01:17 AM MDT
On another note, I'll be taking any and all information that comes from WY Game & Fish with a grain of salt. They really want to sell grizzly trophy hunts, and one of the touted benefits is that by hunting bears, bears will learn to be afraid of people. This of course assumes that a bear can learn a lesson from dying...Regardless, WY G&F isn't above putting whatever spin on this they think will help them legalize trophy hunting for grizzlies.
I think this is a bit dismissive of game's intellect.
We had a park near here over-run with deer because one of the conditions of land donation to establish the park was no deer hunting. You went there, you saw them everywhere. Well, it got to an extreme level and they found a way to hold a disabled veterans hunt and cull a bunch of deer. Note, they did not kill them all, only a fraction. But now you go there during daylight and whereas deer used to stroll unafraid, they are now invisible and seen quite rarely.
Not all stalks are successful. Not all shots meet their mark. Animals learn they are being hunted, and it changes their behavior.
Yep, I see that a lot with coyote hunting, they become educated quickly
You're comparing the behavior of herd animals which are very much in the food chain to the behavior of solitary, pinnacle predators who evolved with no fear of anything other than another grizzly. If killing grizzlies was going to make them change their behavior, it would have happened long ago. If I recall correctly there have been 20+ killings of "problem bears" this year by authorities or trains or vehicles. Bears which choose to push into populated areas are already short lived, but that doesn't change their fundamental behavior.
Most grizzlies already go to extreme lengths to avoid conflicts with people, and the ones that don't end up dead anyway. The only way a grizzly is going to "learn" they're being hunted is if a sow and cub are targeted and one of them is killed in the presence of the other. So the hunter either kills a reproductive sow, which is NOT in any of the game management plans currently written, or they kill a cub, and probably have to kill a sow as well. A cub at the end of its tenure with its mother might survive after the mother is killed, but most cubs wont.
I guess you could include bears who are wounded by gunfire but not killed. THAT sounds like a great way to educate bears...I know I'd feel safer traveling around a bear that had a bullet in it's ass and associated me with that annoyance.
But there's really no reason to hypothesize...Grizzly bears have been hunted in parts of Alaska and Canada since europeans first arrived, and it hasn't altered their behavior. They still maul people who surprise them at close range, they still claim any meat they find as their own, and they still break into cabins in search of food. Why would it work in Wyoming if it doesn't work in Alaska?
It's a hollow argument which attempts to legitimize an activity many see as repugnant by preying on the deep seated, instinctual fear people have of teeth and claws.
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I think it's more of a selection of animal disposition. More aggressive ie less fearful animals are harvested thus reducing the number of animals with an aggressive disposition. While animals with a more reclusive disposition are less likely to be harvested. Thus fewer aggressive animals = less conflicts in the long run
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Quote from: 38-40 on December 13 2018 03:36:13 PM MST
I think it's more of a selection of animal disposition. More aggressive ie less fearful animals are harvested thus reducing the number of animals with an aggressive disposition. While animals with a more reclusive disposition are less likely to be harvested. Thus fewer aggressive animals = less conflicts in the long run
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Yes, but that only works for the destruction of "problem bears" which have unsolicited contact with people, primarily because of the sloppy food and garbage handling habits of people living in the boundary country where grizzlies might not live full time, but occasionally or frequently visit. The destruction of bears which are attracted to human food, garbage, or livestock, and thereby come into contact with armed people, is high enough to put the future of the species at risk. Hunting grizzlies for sport will, in no way, reduce aggressive bears from the population. But it
will further reduce the genetic pool and the longterm survivability of the species.
Grizzlies are open-country animals with little if any innate fear of their surroundings, and thus they have a generally low situational awareness. Most of their attention is directed at the ground directly below their nose, which is where they find the majority of their food. You couldn't pick an easier species to hunt. Anybody who can tell which way the wind is blowing can walk to within 200 yards of a grizzly without any risk of detection, and someone with moderate hunting skills can halve that distance, still without the bear knowing they're there. If anything, sport hunting is going to increase the destruction of bears which have
avoided human contact.
There is simply nothing about sport hunting which will reduce the number of overly aggressive or truculent bears in the population. There is nothing about sport hunting which will change the behavior of grizzlies, or make people safer in the company of bears. And in my opinion, there's nothing about sport hunting of grizzly bears that is remotely moral or ethical. After all, if the pinnacle value of an animal is something to be hunted as a trophy, when do we get to start sport hunting bald eagles? I could have bagged five today alone, and wouldn't they look splendid mounted in my house!
I have no issue with someone defending their own life by killing a grizzly bear (for which I'd pick the 10mm over the .44), but that's a totally different thing than going out to kill a grizzly for the thrill of it. That I find primitively shortsighted, and frankly vile. Grizzly bears live in less than one-half of one-percent of the lower 48 states...people who fear the great bear have PLENTY of other real estate to play in.