I am new to reloading and am having trouble finding load data to go with Berry's plated flat nose 180 gr. and AA no.9 powder. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
I would start with 180 grain FMJ data, reduce 10% and work up. Watch accuracy as it may decrease significantly as you move past starting loads. Plated bullets can be finicky in ways that cast and jacketed bullets are not.
For reference, I have a range report in my log from 6 years ago when I was testing #9 with 175 grain cast bullets. I worked up to 14.7 grains at a COAL of 1.245". Case head diameters were in the expected range and there were no other signs of pressure. Velocity was tested with 10 shot strings in my Glock 29, EAA Witness and Para P16/10mm at 1243, 1294 and 1331 respectively. I had no feeding issues and no leading issues. It should be noted that this data exceeds Accurate's published data for 175 grain lead bullets and 180 grain jacketed bullets. It is a max load according to Lee Reloadings published data for 180 grain FMJ.
On that same range report I did test Berry's 180 TC with Unique. 6.7 grains loaded to 1.260". The P16 did not like the longer bullet and I experienced several three point jams. It ran fine in the other two guns.
Based on this if I were assembling loads for my guns using Berry's 180 and #9, I would load to a COAL of 1.250" +.000"-.005" and start with a charge of 12.0 grains and work up. That charge should produce a muzzle velocity of about 1,000 fps in a 5" barrel. I personally would use Lee's 14.7 grains and 1325 fps (5" barrel) as a max, whichever comes first. But, I would not be at all surprised to see if accuracy drops off significantly around 13.0 grains and above.
I load a lot of Berry's 180gr HP, but I don't use AA9. The Accurate powder website lists a range of 12.2 -13.5gr for a Hornady 180 XTP. Hornady lists the same load data for XTPs and FMJs of the same weight. Berry's will tell you to use data for cast lead, but their bullets can be pushed harder than that. I usually shoot for somewhere in the middle, between lead and jacketed data. At, or near their 1250fps speed limit, Berry's bullets work just fine.
So, if it were me, I'd start with a 12.5gr charge and work up .2gr at a time. The 12.2gr load is very anemic. My best guess would be that you'll end up settling on something in the 12.8-13.0 range, maybe a little higher, with a COAL of 1.250.
The 13.5gr XTP load is nowhere near max pressure for a 10mm. You should be fine if you work up slowly and check for signs of being overpressure. I would think your greater concern would be stripping the plating off before you get to an overpressure situation.
Perhaps someone that uses AA9 will chime in.
Study through these pages and you should find good data that will work...yes the plating on the Berry's Bullet can be easily damaged so care with seating and crimping is also needed...
http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/10mm-load-data-collection/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/10mm-load-data-collection/)
Hey, thanks for the replies. I'll post the results after I go the range.
Since you are just starting out, I assume you already have the basics of reloading down but haven't acquired the usual library of loading data. I would suggest you get your hands on a Lee 2nd Edition manual. It's pretty much a compilation of all of the others. Unless your reloading tools are Lee, I wouldn't suggest using it to learn or to find a "how to" in it. It's going to have a major Lee slant to it. But for raw loading data, it's hard to beat. You can pretty much find most any loading data online too. Most of the bullet makers now have their data online, like Speer, Nosler, etc. At one time, Midway also had loading data for the Rainier bullets. The Lee manual now has it so most any plated bullet will be in the Lee manual. All of the powder makers have loading data online too- Hodgdon, Accurate, Western, Alliant, Ramshot, etc. And when you don't seem to be able to find the exact answer to your query, there's always this forum. Lots of reloading experience here with lots of folks willing to help. Welcome to the world of reloading.
Trapper is right on the money. Work up slow being as anal as possible. Be safe and have fun!!!
Welcome to reloading for a fantastic cartridge.
Good advice so far in the previous posts. Accurate no. 9 is my favorite powder for 10mm, having loaded more than 10 different types. However, with plated, my preference is for a medium burner like WSF, Unique or No. 5. That being said, you can get good results with A9.
You've received some good advice above. I'll just add that Berry's plated 180s can be fussy. It took me some fiddling, but I've managed to get them to work fairly well, but never at max velocities. If you find that groups are pretty inconsistent, then there are a couple of things to look for.
Load a few dummy rounds, then pull them. Look for these problems:
Shaving copper: Needs more case mouth flair and/or need to start straighter into the case when seating.
Excessive crimp: The case mouth should be leaving a faint impression on the bullet -- at most -- or none at all. Beyond that is excessive. Just need to remove the bell enough to kerplunk into the chamber.
Reduced diameter: The diameter of the bullet should be identical after seating as it was before seating. Berry's plated bullets have soft lead, and the act of squeezing them into a case can swage them to a smaller diameter. This is no different than what we find with cast bullets. Swaging down diameter is bad for groups. The remedy is to get an expander plug that adds more interior diameter of the neck. I use an RCBS expander die retrofitted with a "401 Cowboy" expander plug assembly. Marketed as the 38-40 WCF Cowboy expander. It is a couple of thousands larger than the standard size expander plugs and my soft cast and plated bullets will not get swaged down when I use it. Just the right about of neck tension. Note that I'm not talking about case mouth flair. It is the shank of the expander that sets the interior diameter of the neck.
If that doesn't work, slow the velocities.
Taterhead has offered some excellent advise and the only thing I can add is to seat bullets fully to the proper cartridge length without any crimp being applied. So seater / taper crimp dies may need to be raised about and 1/8" to prevent the crimping area from squeezing the casing. If the casing starts to close while the bullet is in motion you will cut, wrinkle or shave the plating or as in the case of a cast bullet shave bullet material on the edge of the case mouth.
I have my Seater/taper crimp die locking adjusted for a slight crimp just leaving a shine on the very edge of the case mouth. However when seating bullets I place a 1/8" spacer under the locking ring to raise the die up preventing the crimp closure... I actually have 2 of the 0.125" - 1/8" and use them for 40S&W. With 357Sig and 9x25 Dillon I can raise the 9mm expander die with one or two spacers for these.
These spacers have several uses and benefits to help not having to readjust the locking rings on the die for several cartridges.
Redding sells the spacers individually or as a kit; https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=Redding+Die+spacer&userItemsPerPage=48 (https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=Redding+Die+spacer&userItemsPerPage=48)
Here is a picture of the 10mm casing with a 9mm casing sitting on two spacers, the two spacers are used for 9x25 Dillon and only one for 357Sig as mentioned above.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/3ypq40vql/IMG_0154.jpg)
My Lee Modern Reloading Second Edition has some copper plated recipes, but I am away from my home right now and can't see if it has any for that caliber and powder preference.
I use Accurate Arms powders exclusively, for handgun.
Go on their website, and look at their most recent loading data. I rely on AA's data for all my reloading.
Range report Aug 4
Glock 20 with 6" Stormlake barrel
Berry's plated 180 gr. Flat nose
assorted brass once fired brass
accurate no.9
Fiocchi large pistol primers
12.5 Gr.: 1320, 1317, 1322, FPS . Case expansion .424, .425
12.7 Gr.: 1363,1347,1554 FPS.Case expansion .426
Once I saw 1554 FPS I stopped shooting my hand loads and shot some factory Fiocchi FMJ 180 Gr. To check my Chrony and I got 1239 FPS.
Needless to say I am going to pull the bullets out of my 12.7,12.9,13.1,13.3 and 13.5 loads and scale back and start with 10.5 and work my way up to 12.
Here is a photo of the 1554 FPS
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FlyingDtnt1, how close to the chronograph were you, sometimes being too close can have powder particulate out run the bullet and trip the timing circuits... Usually you need 10 to 12 feet for pistol rounds.
Around 5-6 feet. :(
That close distance would likely explain the chrono reading of 1554 FPS. Not trying to beat up on anyone just help everyone to understand things based on the info you and others experience and present.
I think you will find that your other cartridges will be within proper range with your powder charges. 8)
Quote from: The_Shadow on August 19 2018 09:15:58 AM MDT
That close distance would likely explain the chrono reading of 1554 FPS. Not trying to beat up on anyone just help everyone to understand things based on the info you and others experience and present.
I think you will find that your other cartridges will be within proper range with your powder charges. 8)
I was kind of wondering about that number because I thought Berry's recommended not to exceed 1250 fps on their plated bullets. Because that velocity might shed the plating and cause inaccuracies.
Hey Shadow,
So at 10-12', your readings will be the most accurate, correct? A friend of mine is getting a new chrono, and has offered me his old one for next to nothing. Not sure of the manufacture or model, but hey, the price is right : )
Thanks
Ken
It depends on the particular unit and sensors, but most say 10 to 12 for pistol so as not to pick up particulate to start the timers. Rifles need about 12' to 15".
The Lab Radar is a different system as it tracks the bullet in flight to target by radar and is not affected by the light sources, blast and particulates that can affect other units.
Great, Thanks!
So what exactly in the reloading process could cause hangfires/misfires? Bunk primers,dirty primer pocket, primer not seated properly,C.O.L or a combination of these? I got about 15+ misfires in 200 rounds.
I don't think it's the gun because I ran 2 magazines of factory ammo with no problem.
(//)
Edit:hangfire to misfire
I'm no expert to be sure, but sounds like a primer issue
Here are the offending cartridges.
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Quote from: Kenk on September 02 2018 04:52:24 PM MDT
I'm no expert to be sure, but sounds like a primer issue
I'm using Fiocchi large pistol primers. Does anyone else use these?
Could be hard/bad primers. Could be they weren't fully seated. The one on the bottom right has the biggest dent in it and certainly looks like it should have gone off, I'd lean towards bad primers. I've had the same experience with Fiocchi loaded ammo many times. Recently a rented XDm wouldn't ignite 6 or 7 Fiocchi 45s for me. I loaded them in a Kimber 1911 and they all went off.
To be fair, I've also had a batch of CCI small pistol primers do this. I'm working through those as plinking ammo right now.
Did you try a second strike on any of these?
Doesn't go off with one hit, likely a primer not seated properly.
Doesn't go off with two hits, then it is likely a bad primer. Which can be too hard, or just a dud.
Recently Intercooler had some primers that didn't ignite even after I tested using my pistol. When I pulled them down it looked like the priming pellets were loose and crumbling. The result was no priming mixture where the anvil was to get started.
His was Fiocchi Ammo
I ran most of them through a second time only a few did not go off. I'll be more wary of making sure they are seated properly. I am going to make the switch to Winchester primers, going to pick some up Friday. I still have about 1,200 Fiocchi primers left, lol.
Yep, gotta always watch for these hangfire's, I have not had this happen personally, but will be on my guard for them for sure
Primer strikes look mighty light to me. Have you had any custom work done to that Glock, assuming you bought it new? I couldn't find the materials used in the Fiocchi cup to tell you if they are hard or soft. Not all primers are easily set off with Federal being the easiest due to their being the softest. You might also measure with a caliper the actual size of the primers, especially the height. If the cup is short, you're going to get light hits. Here's the SAAMI chart on primer sizing.
(https://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/Dollar_Bill_2009/PrimersandPrimerPocketDimensions_zps55bbb886.jpg)
There can be several reasons for light primer strikes, short casings with extra headspacing and cartridge movement with the strike.
Firing pin or striker channel having debris inside, this can be carbon fouling, dry oils or grease, plating from primer cups or from primer smear from previous loads.
Also as I mentioned above there may not be enough priming mixture between the anvil and the base of the primer cup. This can be from shrinkage, broken or crumbling priming pellets where the mixture has moved from its original placement. Although rare, it is possible for some mixtures to move during vibritory cleaning or packaging or shipping.
Quote from: Trapper6L on September 03 2018 06:55:18 PM MDT
Primer strikes look mighty light to me. Have you had any custom work done to that Glock, assuming you bought it new? I couldn't find the materials used in the Fiocchi cup to tell you if they are hard or soft. Not all primers are easily set off with Federal being the easiest due to their being the softest. You might also measure with a caliper the actual size of the primers, especially the height. If the cup is short, you're going to get light hits. Here's the SAAMI chart on primer sizing.
(https://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz53/Dollar_Bill_2009/PrimersandPrimerPocketDimensions_zps55bbb886.jpg)
Funny you say that because I recently had my feed ramp polished on my 6" storm lake barrel in my G20 by a gunsmith who lubed the shit out of my gun, well past what the Glock recommendations are.
If he used grease on the firing pin part, I could see how it would slow down the forward movement and maybe even stop the firing pin early. Might give it a good cleaning and see where that gets you. You can use a gun scrubber or the green labeled brake cleaner for a spray. You have to use any of them outside due to fumes. The green brake cleaner is non-flammable which is why I use it.
Since you reload and after you clean it, if you have a safe place to do this, size 5 cases and prime the cases only- no powder, no bullet. Single load these in the gun and see if they all go off. You'll get a bang like a small firecracker and usually a little flame out of the barrel so make sure it's pointed in a safe direction. That should give you an indication that you either have a different issue or cleaning was the fix.
FWIW, if you are in a fairly dry climate, might consider using the WD-40 PTFE dry lube. It's basically a teflon spray and it works fabulous on guns. It doesn't attract dust or dirt. It takes the place of gun oil for a lube but not gun grease.
https://www.wd40specialist.com/products/dry-lube/
That's a great idea, I haven't seen the Specialist version before, Thanks!
So I got a Sellier and Bellot case with wee bit flattened primer, and ran in through my Dillion and ended up with the primer seated a little bit to high. My question is, is this cartridge still good? Or should I toss it?
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With the new primer
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Evening FlyingDtnt1,
I'm sure the more experienced folks can answer better, however for me, if it's not seated correctly, I won't shoot it. Some may seat it deeper, but a hot rd is a hot rd, I'm not going to mess with it / take any silly chances
Thanks
Ken
If it is Flush or slightly below flush it will be fine. Clean primer pockets help to seat fully and some pockets can be out of spec. Pocket uniformers can help things too.
Might be an incompatibility.
I can't use Hornady brass in .45 ACP. It's good brass, but the primer pockets are too tight for the Winchester primers I use. Very tight seating and I don't trust it. When I run across a Hornady I put it in the scrap can.
So last week I took out some zero jhp 180 grain loaded with 12.2 Grains of accurate number 9 and Winchester large pistol primers. Shot about 160 down range with no misfires/hangfires/duds. I had couple ftfs, the C.O.L on those that jammed where 1.264. Anyways it looks like I'll be sticking with Winchester'S from now on.
Today at the range I was changing barrels in my G20 and I ran across this.
It looks to me like unburnt powder and I was wondering is this the result of of loose primer pockets? I have never seen my gun dirty like this before.
[attachment deleted by admin]
More than likely the powder being unburned results from bullets not held by case neck tension tight enough to fully ignite. However slower burning powders may require hotter primers to help ignite them fully. BTW there is always some powder that may not burn fully... ::)
Insufficient neck tension?
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Would need to know the load data to say for sure. This is the result of low pressure. That can be caused by low neck tension, but I see it more often in light loads.
Yeah, I agree about the light load and too slow of powder. You have to stay near peak loading data when using some of the slow powders like AA9. It requires significantly more pressure for the slow powders to ignite than a medium or fast burning powder. If you want reduced velocities, use a faster powder. If you want reduced recoil use real fast powders like the ammo makers use. For plinker ammo, I generally stay with the medium powders like Unique or Blue Dot on the slow end of medium burning. For nuclear loads I usually pull out the Blue Dot or AA7, depending on bullet weight. For reduced recoil, try 231.
I was running 11 grains of Blue Dot over a 155 grain Speer TMJ, which is a starting load. When I fired this round it made puff noise and sounded like it might be a squib.
One thing that needs to be done, is to insure the insides of the cases are clean and dry! I have seen where people are using liquid methods of brass cleaning, not that, that is a bad thing...however insufficient drying or in some instances the water can develop a surface tension as a contained a bubble of liquid that will not dry out easily. This type of bubble, sort of seals itself inside the casing and it is only broken by the powder charge which dampens the interior powder charge and can also kill the primer itself. ???
I have found many things inside of casings to include but not limited to, spiders and webs, sand, dirt, rocks, other smaller brass cases, moisture, using dry media tumbling you can get media stuck inside the flash hole. The bottom line here is case inspection, using a case neck brush can help sweep the inside of the casings to loosen most debris.
I always check inside each and every case before the powder goes in, yes it is a slower process, but I load each and every cartridge like it is Match Grade / Hand Weighed so I see inside that case as the powder is poured inside. Yes I am ANAL! ::) But I also know I have done everything to insure the best possible ammo. ;D
Even if it didn't ruin your powder or primer, it would likely ruin your day if the round went off. The expansion ratio of water to steam is nearly double that of nitrocellulose to gas. Adding a grain of two of water would have a serious negative impact on pressure.
Absolutely, when it comes to hand loading, serious anelness is always your friend
Blue Dot doesn't meter all that well in a progressive press either. It also runs better with heavier bullets, in my experience. Short bullet + light charge could equal poof instead of bang. Sounds like it made enough pressure to at least drive the bullet out of the barrel?
The scorching on the outside of the brass is definitely indicative of a low pressure round. I see that all the time on downloaded .45s.