This can be the first sticky.
By Intercooler EAA 4.75" and 6" barrels/drsjr1969 (YouTube) Stock G20 4.6" barrel:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E#gid=0
By drsjr1969 (YouTube) Stock G20 4.6" barrel:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjsXvXEryDJjdFhsRUcwSHRUcktCMmhOMTVFa25xa1E#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjsXvXEryDJjdFhsRUcwSHRUcktCMmhOMTVFa25xa1E#gid=0)
Nice. Great list.
Great list, Thanks
I get back and will be doing three more.
Cool spreadsheet. I carry the Underwood 180 GD, is that what is listed, or another HP?
I did the gold dot... every one I think.
Quote from: Intercooler on June 11 2012 01:00:26 AM MDT
This can be the first sticky.
Agreed. Thanks much for all your fun hard work!
Great info! Has anyone tried Blaser 200gr aluminum cased ammo? Picked up my G20SF today, and that's the only 10mm ammo my dealer had. Not going to get a chance to try it out till the weekend to see for myself.
It's really weak. I would do an on-line order for some good stuff. About the best deal right now is Scottsdale Ammo (HPR) for $21.99/50. It's real 10mm to boot!
What is the difference between what is highlighted in green, and those that are not?
What tells us which were shot from the 4.6" and which were shot from the 4.75"?
Forgot to ask in the post above.....Did you personally chronograph all those?
All the green I personally did. The whites were David Sneed 4.6. Between him and I we are within 30-50 FPS. That's never seemed significant to me like 100-250 FPS some were off their rating.
Thanks! And now it's a sticky! SWEET! 8)
Updated with Thunderbird info.
Quote from: Intercooler on June 27 2012 09:46:50 PM MDT
It's really weak. I would do an on-line order for some good stuff. About the best deal right now is Scottsdale Ammo (HPR) for $21.99/50. It's real 10mm to boot!
Did the price go up or am I looking in the wrong place? It was listed for $31.99 just now.
Thanks in advance.
Scottsdale changes often. Its not on sale right now.
That Thunderbird offering okay. Nice to see they aren't fudging the velocity claims! Koodos to them.
Quote from: Intercooler on July 19 2012 06:44:25 AM MDT
Scottsdale changes often. Its not on sale right now
Computer and I don't do well sometimes, thanks for responding. Also thank you for all the work with the chart.
Added Precision Cartridge results.
The Precision results don't make me want to buy it, but at least it is honestly fairly above 40S&W spec.
Another option. For the money and it being HP ammo it isn't bad. Better than 60% of the .40-lite stuff!
Changed the PPU results to todays. Seems they had a shift or something becuase it's not bad now!
Definately good news! In cases like that I always wonder why? Was something purposefully tweaked?.....Does their quality control allow for such a difference?... Who knows. Still, regardless why, it's good to see it headed in the right direction.
It looks that Underwood would make a great choice for a personal defense round, would most agree?
Second, looking at the data, seems Doubletap is not being up front about their published velocities. Any thoughts on this?
We shall see in the Fall when tnoutdoors9 starts his 10mm testing. As for DoubleTap and Buffalo Bore I don't see anything they can give at 2X the cost that Underwood can't. I hate BB's packaging to boot!
I did see he on his channel about the 10mm testing. Should be interesting and can't wait to see his results.
Quote from: Panzer on August 02 2012 02:25:40 PM MDT
It looks that Underwood would make a great choice for a personal defense round, would most agree?
Currently they are the best available for various reasons.
QuoteSecond, looking at the data, seems Doubletap is not being up front about their published velocities. Any thoughts on this?
That is only the half of it. I will never buy Double Tap ammo again.
Sheet was updated for new Winchester Silvertip and Hornady Critical Defense 165gr. numbers.
Quote from: REDLINE on August 04 2012 02:53:12 PM MDT
Quote from: Panzer on August 02 2012 02:25:40 PM MDT
It looks that Underwood would make a great choice for a personal defense round, would most agree?
Currently they are the best available for various reasons.
QuoteSecond, looking at the data, seems Doubletap is not being up front about their published velocities. Any thoughts on this?
That is only the half of it. I will never buy Double Tap ammo again.
I have never bought it and will not if they are lying about the numbers that badly. I think I will be going Underwood for the PD and when I want some good punch at the range.
I am switching to handloads, but I would be buying Underwood. Buffalo Bore is just too dang expensive.
Link to ammo sheet is down
Anyone able to make this sheet accessible again?
It is Intercooler's document and it appears the sharing has been turned off or the link has been expired. I am sure once he notices this thread he will update the sharing or the link.
thank you I appreciate the update. I'm on a mission to share this link as much as possible.
Anthony posted this today:
Parabellum Research Jesse,
Starline swears they are boxing it right now, Hal called them today. We'll
have that 200gr loading available in the new "V-Supreme" line, nicknamed
Adkins Ammo around here.
Regards,
Anthony Mowry
Parabellum Research, LLC
P.O. Box 163
Buda, Texas 78610
(512) 666-7279
Intercooler: I just checked my can of Georgia Arms Canned Heat 165 FMJ's. The can is marked 1250 FPS. I chrono'd them out of an EAA Witness Limited @ 1245 ave. I saw the factory FPS was missing in your link in the first post.
The sheet has 1250 but never got any to Chrony. Georgia Arm's site always says out of components.
Quote from: Intercooler on November 16 2012 05:09:24 PM MST
The sheet has 1250 but never got any to Chrony. Georgia Arm's site always says out of components.
My bad. I got that backwards.
One day if they ever get stock I will get them tested!
If you try to order when they are in stock, it may be a long wait. The fill backorders pretty quickly in my experience. Seems like I was told 4 weeks and had ammo about 10 days later. FWIW.
I think the prices will come back down eventually, although maybe not to $400/K. Problem is inflation has made all the components pricier in terms of dollars.
And while I really, really think Obama health care solution is bad, I can't argue that the constitution does give congress the power to tax. I just wish the courts had judged it as presented, then said if congress wanted to re-pass it as a tax they would let it stand.
I was a huge supporter of the read the bills act a few years ago. It would have made it a violation of federal law for a congress-critter to vote on legislation that either they or a staff member had not read in it's entirety. It also required each bill to be read aloud in congress before a vote could be taken.
How many years would it have taken them to read the Obama-care act?
I am quite interested in that 220 gr lead Underwood. I just ordered some 220 gr lead bullets and might try to replicate that load. I have some 800x on the way from Cabela's that should be here Monday. Might be my new bear load for the wilderness areas of northern Washington on the Canadian border.
A 220 grain slug at 1200 fps and 700 f/lbs is amazing.
I sent you an e-mail with the data for you to look over... :D
Quote from: The_Shadow on May 19 2013 09:30:50 AM MDT
I sent you an e-mail with the data for you to look over... :D
Thanks. Good info. I don't imagine shooting these on a regular basis, if ever. But having them in my gun on my hip in bear country will be quite comforting.
My first post here.
I just picked up a g20 to go along with my TC Encore and barrels. Half of my Encore barrels are wildcats and I bought a program "QuickLoad" to help with load development. Its an internal ballistics program that does quite well by my use.
I just ran the numbers for the Underwood 135g/13.2g Longshot load, and It comes up with a chamber pressure of a whopping 48,752psi. Hot indeed!!!! QuickLoad comes very close to the velocity at 1629 fps out of a 4.6" barrel.
Pressure scares me a bit if that's close to accurate.
Greg
Hello Greg, yes the workups people have run in "QuickLoad" program has be scary, indeed!
This one was done based on the SwampFox Ammo as sold 1240fps using 9.4gr of LongShot (I load and shoot this one), he also sold one listed at 1325 fps using 10.0gr of LongShot.... ???
Some were 58K +
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/HodgdonLongShot.jpg)
I wish "QuickLoad" had data for the IMR 800X powder...its not in their database from what I was told by the sellers. ???
I see you corrected the pressure to the latest SAMMI figures too.
I tried multiple search engines to find 800X numbers, but no go. I know they update every so often with new powders, but handguns aren't their main focus.
I must say I kinda like my right hand, and I want to keep it. I tried a load I believed to be ok and it had a pot bellied swell using 800X in two cartridges, one missing the primer. There were a total of 4 others that had smiles, and the rest were put in my empties to be reloaded. I'm still trying to figure out how there could be so much difference in weighed charges. Maybe Winchester primers (for standard and magnum loads) caused a spike.
I have a storm lake barrel on order to support the base better, but the hot loads are fun if I can figure out how to reload them safely. Plastic frames might not be so good of the case fails and I don't want to go there. I was close!!!
Greg
I totally understand... :D There are many chambers not just Glocks, that allow for too much expansion and even "SMILES" because of the lack of case support as you have seen.
BTW I don't have the QL program, but some who do have crunched the data and shared the info and even screen shots like the one pictured.
If you haven't looked over the "pull-downs" please do so, I have had a great time studying the data as I documented each of the rounds.
Does the QuickLoads show any 9x25Dillon information? ??? I am working up loads using various powders for this one, working blindly but methodically to see how it goes! It would be nice to gather pressure data for this cartridge with some of my loads.
The Dillon is there.
Wildcats are where QuickLoad starts to pay off. You can even create the ones that aren't there. I had to create one for the 338/284 Encore pistol round. How about 3000 ft-lb in a handgun ;D
Greg
The 10mm from a semi-auto is too dynamic with respect to the upper end performance, as tested from one gun to the next as far as chamber support and setup goes. What works from your gun may not work from mine so to speak. ::)
This cartridge from a stout revolver with full case support or the TC Encore's heavy barrel can take more by design. Brass is another limiting issue as some go plastic sooner than others with the same loads, hence the case expansion and flow to "SMILE". There are some that are brittle by nature and even split/crack on the initial factory loads, Federal has be the worst that I have seen in my experience. Many things can cause brass issues, like different alloys and forming processes, annealing process, work hardening, another is primer pockets getting loose. :-\
Having studied and loading this cartridge since its beginning, I have learned many things, do's and don't's but the most important thing when it comes to reuse of the cartridge case has been inspection and "pass-thru" sizing/reconditioning.
As it pertains to a "Smiled" casing, no amount of reconditioning will repair it to be safe. The alloy has started to shear on the molecular level. Test I have done purposely, do not correct the issue and a next firing things got worse even with good case support.
The best advice I could offer is to know your weapon, its limitations and be safe! 8)
Try the NFP 155 load through there if you can. I bet that will get your head spinning around like an Owl :o
Looks like the 155g XTP Underwood loading also made the transition to Longshot. I measured it at 10.5g, but I may have lost a few granules.
I will say they are hot.
Greg
The links posted in the first reply seem to be working fine. I did make a change to it today (6/10/14) though.
Where did you get your loading data for the 135gr Nosler using LongShot powder? The load listed is 13.2grs of LongShot, is this a load you worked up yourself or is it in a loading manual? If it is in a loading manual what loading manual did you get it from? In the Lee manual and the Hodgdon manual I find no data for using LongShot with a 135gr bullet of any type. I would really like to know.
Quote from: Quick 2 on July 09 2014 03:42:00 AM MDT
I would really like to know.
Shadow, Intercooler & Raggedyman have been hard at work tearing down factory 10mm ammo and posting the stats on the very first post in this thread. Its a great resource for 10mm fans!!!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E#gid=4 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E#gid=4)
The 13.2g Longshot load is a factory Underwood loading.
Greg
I really love this site. Thanks for the work you put on that sheet. That's the, loads I've been looking for. To get real power ammo.
I've worked up the 135gr nosler with longshot. Got some wicked numbers at 12gr. 1670 outta my lonewolf 6.61 barrel. Wicked hot as dugan Ashley would say.
Keep up the awe-sum work. I'm amazed you guys could id these so well.
Thanks for adding the Sig. That BE-86 powder looks interesting. It seems to run my 10mm AR better than other "conventional" pistol powders in commercial ammo, seems fairly clean.
Just and observation; I think Underwood has abandoned IMR 800-X powder and maybe Longshot Powder too in the 10mm. If so, those 10mm loads by Underwood should be moved to the "Discontinued" tab in the Master Sheet.
Quote from: REDLINE on September 23 2017 06:27:23 AM MDT
Just and observation; I think Underwood has abandoned IMR 800-X powder and maybe Longshot Powder too in the 10mm. If so, those 10mm loads by Underwood should be moved to the "Discontinued" tab in the Master Sheet.
What bullet type and weight used those powders? And what are the differences in velocities for those bullet types/weights with the replacement powders?
Underwood has been using the rebranded LOVEX powders as sold by Shooters World and may have dropped the velocity some, I can see why those with the other powders could be considered discontinued. However it might be possible Underwood may actually load some lots with those powders again... We never know what will happen with regards to imported powders. ???
About when did the change occur?
Quote from: Mike_Fontenot on September 23 2017 07:20:50 AM MDTWhat bullet type and weight used those powders? And what are the differences in velocities for those bullet types/weights with the replacement powders?
I wish we had all the answers. One thing we know is that what put Underwood on the map was in the beginning he loaded all his 10mm ammo with IMR 800-X powder at max pressures, and possibly beyond, and all velocities from all loads surpassed box flap claims. It was a hay-day for the 10mm crowd! But then there was the occasional Case Failure/Ka-BOOM with said ammo, and while it didn't seem Underwood made any changes overnight, IIRC the first thing they did was to add a watered down Colt Delta Elite 10mm load to their lineup (which has since been discontinued) and later over time began experimenting with different powders.
To date we know Underwood has/does use: IMR 800-X, Hodgdon Longshot, Alliant Power Pistol, Ramshot Silhouette, and Lovex D037.1 powders. I suspect Underwood is now only using Lovex and Silhouette, but don't quote me on that, and most probably (in some cases we know for a fact) lowered velocities across the board (that don't meet all box flap claims anymore). As an unrelated side note Underwood's prices have gone up over time but are still a relative bargain for 10mm Auto, and they have ceased offering premium bullet loads in 50 round boxes in favor of 20 round boxes while the plinking loads can still be had in 50 round boxes.
What I wish is that I had the money to buy a fresh box of everything in 10mm, from at least all of; Underwood, Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, and others. Then take it all apart, and see what's what, all at the same time, currently.
I haven't done an exhaustive search related to your questions but you can glean some info hear in Intercooler's Master List at the beginning of this thread and the 10mm Pull Down Data spreadsheet sqlbullet created from The_Shadow's work stickied in the Factory 10mm Ammo pull-downs subforum. How much is current on YouTube to represent the Lovex powder Underwood is using, I don't know and just don't have time to research the heck out of right now.
No doubt not everything about 10mm ammunition is the same as in some years back that the average 10mm shooter still thinks applies today. It would be great to compare all fresh and current 10mm loads again now.
I actually have a bunch of the original Underwood 10mm loads from when it was all Nuclear loads of IMR 800-X powder. 8 different ones to be exact. ;D
I wonder why 800-X was the craze for a while and now nobody loads with it? Did they change it or discontinue?
Quote from: Intercooler on December 11 2017 03:06:55 AM MST
I wonder why 800-X was the craze for a while and now nobody loads with it? Did they change it or discontinue?
Other powders meet the performance profile but meter much better. Longshot comes to mind. In fact, Longshot exceeds 800X performance in published data, but also takes a bit (8-10%) more powder. Perhaps early on the boutique loaders where trying to meet performance at a reduced cost. Issues with metering probably showed that to be a false economy.
My 2ยข
Any data on the basement products? S&B and Magtech? Great stuff for shooting steel at the range. Magtech claims 1160 fps. Wondering how accurate that is. I know that it gives my steel targets a good thump.
Nobody? :(
Quote from: terdog on November 30 2018 09:46:01 AM MSTAny data on the basement products? S&B and Magtech? Great stuff for shooting steel at the range. Magtech claims 1160 fps. Wondering how accurate that is. I know that it gives my steel targets a good thump.
Numerous basement products are listed in Intercooler's links in the first post of this thread including S&B. Maybe you didn't notice the links? No Magtech 10mm has been chronographed by anyone yet to my knowledge, at least at 10mm-firearms.com. If you get a chronograph please fill us in.
Accuracy? What accuracy are you looking for? Compared to what? At what distance? From what platform? It would be surprising if it wasn't capable of hitting steel at the range consistently from practically any platform unless it is below subpar. Not many specific accuracy results have ever been posted, but more so generalities when they are.
Thanks for your response REDLINE.
Sorry, but I guess that I'm having trouble finding S&B. I saw PMC & BLAZER (BLASER?)
I think that you misread my "accuracy" question. I was asking how accurate the 1160 fps claim is for S&B/MAGTECH.
MAGTECH is consistently the least expensive 10mm that I can find. One would expect it to be 'weak" based on its cost.
Quote from: terdog on January 24 2019 08:12:53 AM MST
Thanks for your response REDLINE.
Sorry, but I guess that I'm having trouble finding S&B. I saw PMC & BLAZER (BLASER?)
I think that you misread my "accuracy" question. I was asking how accurate the 1160 fps claim is for S&B/MAGTECH.
MAGTECH is consistently the least expensive 10mm that I can find. One would expect it to be 'weak" based on its cost.
LOL, you are correct, in your 1st post I took "that" to mean the ammo in general as opposed to the velocity claims. My bad.
You will find Sellier & Bellot in the 1st google doc Intercooler listed here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gex6ItGeWQunVZR9B14mseacyEGoreRRrBEXZavfciM/edit#gid=13 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gex6ItGeWQunVZR9B14mseacyEGoreRRrBEXZavfciM/edit#gid=13), under the tab/page "170gr-180gr", on lines 51 & 52 showing both the JHP and FMJ loads.
I know it would take a lot of work to research what's what, but it would be nice if the loads that don't exist anymore were either highlighted or whatever to differentiate between loads that currently exist.
Some of the discontinued offerings were moved to the last tab "Discontinued". I can research and move some of the others over. It's been a while since I really went into the sheets :)
One easy way to weed out some is that nobody is using 800X powder anymore so any of those can be moved to the discontinued section.
One of the best things about handloading is you know what you are loading with and how much! ;D
The S&B ammunition is becoming one of the quick to be restocked brands locally, though I have no experience with this line. Yay or nay? Plan is for close range use through a couple handguns as well as close/medium range through PCC. Thanks in advance!
S&B has been a good plinking target round over the years! It is not the highest velocity but has cycled reliably for most.