Hi, I'm relatively new to loading 10mm, and none of my friends do, so I found this place and decided to ask for a sanity check on what I'm doing. As usual, my manual doesn't have the exact bullet I'm loading (165gr Blue Bullet RNFP) so I started low and worked up for similar bullet weights using Power Pistol and Blue Dot. I'm using the Lyman 49th Edition, and I wanted to get to 1200 fps, which doesn't seem like a stretch for 10mm w/ 165s.
So I worked up a Power Pistol load first:
- 7.9 gr, 1130 fps
- 8.1 gr, 1150 fps
- 8.3 gr, 1175 fps
- 8.5 gr, 1185 fps
- 8.7 gr, 1210 fps
Do these seem reasonable?That last load with Power Pistol launched 5 bullets within 10fps of each other. Then came the Blue Dot, which I regularly had +/- 25 fps with (is this normal for a G20.4?).
- 9.1 gr, ~1039 fps
- 9.3 gr, ~1071 fps
- 9.5 gr, ~1087 fps
- 9.9 gr, ~1103 fps
- 10.2 gr, ~1112 fps
- 10.4 gr, ~1173 fps
It could be my imagination, but these Blue Dot loads seemed to have a lot of blast and recoil for the velocities I was seeing. Also, I have 2 scales I check against each other especially when I get near a book max. I was seeing differences of up to 0.2gr with Blue Dot (maybe that explains the velocity variation). Am I on track here, and do these numbers seem reasonable to you guys that have loaded a lot more 10 than me? The brass looks fine, resizes fine, no flattened primers. I did put a Brass Stacker 22 lb spring in.
What was the COAL on these?
1.279"
Wow, 1.260 is max length for 10mm. I'm surprised they fed and cycled.
1200fps is indeed no big deal w/165gr bullets. You got there with the PP because it's a faster burning powder and more forgiving of the extra internal case volume with the 165gr bullets loaded over length.
BlueDot, because of it's slower burning rate, wasn't burning completely with the extra internal case volume. You probably didn't have any more recoil, but did have a much bigger fireball when shooting those. Your 10.4gr BD load should launch a 180gr bullet as fast, or a little faster, while still being well under max pressure.
BD doesn't meter as well as PP, so that may have been part of your spread issue. Being over length with a short bullet to begin with was probably the bigger factor.
I tend to get better results with 180gr bullets and up.
Hope this helps.
Caboose, welcome to the forum! Looking at the COL you listed does show why the velocities are slightly lower that what I would expect.
I use COL of 1.2500 for most all of my 10mm ammo. This helps to build the pressure needed for performance. I powder tends to burn better with the higher pressures as well. I take that the Blue Bullet is a poly coated lead and as such lead alloy data is good for their use.
Your readings look good and would even be higher with your COL being shorter...
The reason for the 45ACP using 1.275" was because of the 230 grain FMJ being long and you would see shorter numbers for FP and HP styles.
As graybeard says, the blue dot was loud and firebally because of the unburned powder. Reduce the COAL and keep working up.
10.4 is the starting load for a 165 grain Gold Dot, with a COAL of 1.255". Your bullet will be shorter, and probably have less bearing surface and friction, though it should seal the bore a bit better. These factors means you have additional "headroom" in your load. Blue Dot should get you to between 1275 and 1300 fps with this bullet, if loaded to 1.255". At your length you might see 1350.
Thanks for the info, guys. Yes, they are poly coated bullets. I got to this COAL by making some dummies and doing the "plunk" test. They actually plunked at even longer COALs just fine. Then I pushed them in until they would fit in the mag, and I've had no reliability issues. I decided the extra length was some margin for error in terms of pressure as I worked loads up. Sometime this weekend I'll load a new batch and push them in a little more and see what happens with Blue Dot. So far, 10mm has been fun. Even these loads make my 9mm +P carry ammo out of a G26 seem wimpy.
Also using slower burning powders, the extra case to bullet tension helps burn the power and prevent bullet setback.
It may not seem like much but wit Blue Dot it will help.
OK, looks like 1.263" is as deep as I can go with these bullets. Any shorter and I'll be taper crimping air at the case mouth. Loading some up with Blue Dot that is measuring 10.5-10.7 grains per throw.
If flash is an issue, try Alliant BE-86. Burn rate falls between Unique and Power Pistol. BE-86 meters very well, similar to Power Pistol.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=165&shellid=30&bulletid=41&bdid=1246
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=165&shellid=30&bulletid=330&bdid=1249
And...
BE-86 is the fastest of the powders Alliant lists for 165 grain at 1344.
Thanks. When I burn up the rest of this Blue Dot I'll check out BE86. Alliant powders are typically available locally. I do like how Power Pistol meters, it's very consistent.
You could switch bullets and use your BlueDot with them, too. The profile of the blue bullets is somewhat similar to a LSWC. The reduced diameter above the power band allowed for the plunk test to work at the greater lengths that you mentioned. It would have plunked until the power band hit the rifling.
Something like the Berry's 165gr HBRN heavy plate would be a safe choice for your load work up. They can be seated much further, and take the speed of a jacketed bullet. They also have more bearing surface/neck tension (as Shadow mentioned). They are a bit more expensive, though.
Interestingly, it looks to me like the Blue Bullets you're using would be perfect for a gun with a 40/10 chamber. Like they were designed for it.
I have a few thousand of these Blue 165s (I use them for .40 minor loads mainly), maybe I'll check into a different bullet after those are all gone. I shoot a lot of steel so I prefer to stay away from anything plated or jacketed. I got a piece of jacket in the face once from properly set steel, not fun.
What's a 40/10 chamber?
I participate in steel shoots quite often. Getting hit with stray bullet bits isn't fun, but it is why we wear eye protection. I've never really noticed plated bullets to offer up more shrapnel than straight lead. In fact, one of the worst ones was lead. I had to dig that one out of my finger with a pocket knife.
A 40/10 chamber involves using .40S&W brass loaded to 10mm lengths and with 10mm powder charges. The chamber is cut to headspace as a .40 but the rifling starts as if it were a 10mm. It's really only useful on race guns. Easy to make major power factor and the extra gas feeds the compensator/brake. Guys who like it argue that .40 brass is cheaper, small primers, mitigates recoil better than a .40 or a 10mm. The goal isn't to achieve the speed of a 10mm or bullseye accuracy, just a fast shooting, low recoiling .40 that makes major.
Hence my comment. A poly coated bullet that can only be loaded long by design, using lead data, and gives you a big gas ball with slower powders was practically made for this.
Maybe if you shoot enough steel you're just asking for it with any bullet. I guess I've been lucky so far with the PC lead.
It isn't just steel. I've probably been hit with small fragments between 50 and 100 times. The vast majority were no big deal. Only 2 times was the skin broken. Bowling pins are just as good, or better, for sending pieces back. Sometimes entire slugs. But pins are so much fun, it never put me off.
Had a conversation a couple of years ago with a coworker (non shooter) about this subject. He was somewhat aghast at the thought of being hit by bullet fragments. When I pointed out he was in the ER 3 times in the last 2 months with hockey injuries that involved stitches and a concussion, it added a little perspective to it. I've been hurt worse by bees.
Cool info!!! Thanks!
Quote from: Goetztalon on May 27 2018 10:52:08 AM MDT
Cool info!!! Thanks!
Assuming you meant the 40/10 stuff, not how many times Caboose and I have been hit with bullet bits!! :)
Yes not the injury's lol!
At the shorter COAL w/ Blue Dot, my velocity went up about 15 fps at the same charge of about 10.5gr. But I'm still seeing lots of unburned powder specks all over the shooting bench and my arms. I think I like the Power Pistol loads better, at least with this bullet, and I'll burn the rest of this Blue dot in my .357 probably.
Those bullets just aren't going to let you get enough pressure to burn BD efficiently. On the plus side, you got what you were going after with the PP. It's a win/win since PP is easier to work with!
I hope you were shooting at an outdoor range. BlueDot has a pretty nasty smell you can eventually taste when it doesn't burn completely.
Yup, I got my 1200 fps with PP, I'm happy. 1200 fps with 165gr bullets seems pretty warm to me for an autoloader, and it sure knocks the steel down compared to my 9mm loads. Plus I'm basically within my Lyman manual loads, and they seem conservative, which makes me feel good. Honestly it was hot and humid here today, and even with a good solid grip, the G20.4 was squirming in my hands. I think I'll stick with the PP load for now. Thanks for the help, sirs.
Second thought, would the Blue Dot do well in 9mm or .40, due to the smaller case volume?
I use Blue Dot in my 40S&W and 9mm as well...
Caliber-40 S&W (fully supported bbl) has been shot in many BBL with no problems
Primer- CCI –550 SPM
Bullet- Truncated 175grains
0.4015" Dia. COL 1.125"
Powder- Blue Dot 8.4grs
Velocity - 1070 fps
Caliber-9-MM Auto
Primer-Winchester –WSP
Bullet- Turncated 122grain
Hard Cast - .355" Dia.
Powder- Blue Dot 8.2grs
Velocity - 1170 fps
Cool, thanks. I bet that fills a 9mm case pretty good.
Shadow is correct. It should be fine in .40 and 9mm. BD is only a really bad choice in lower pressure calibers like .45acp and .38 Special. They'll go bang, but won't burn well at all.
I can push the 40S&W a little harder in my guns but I don't really trust the used brass at upper pressured loadings because sometimes my niece will ask for a few rounds to shoot in her little pistol.
With Power Pistol (10 gr), in my RIA I get 1321 fps with a Extreme 165 RNFP HBCP, COL 1.255. Lots of flash and noise, but that is PP! ES 37, SD 11.9. This is a good round to get attention at a range!
11.5 gr. Blue Dot (RIA) gives me 1264fps, (COL: 1250), ES 79, SD 25.02 (more then I like!!)
9.0 gr. BE-86 (Sig P220) gives me 1268 fps, (COL: 1.255), ES 63, SD 20 (again, I like to see a ES less then 50, and a lower SD)
Have been testing 155 XTP's and Nosier 135's, and all I can say is WOW! Many VERY good loads with power Pistol, BE-86, Blue Dot, and CFE Pistol. PP had the fastest speeds, very good ES & SD, BUT a LOT of flash and noise!
Got some Nosier 200's ready to go now for when the rain stops!
Good to hear more low SD from Power Pistol, as I have seen. It leaves a bit of a mess in first 1/2" of my barrel compared to other powders (even in other calibers), but that's OK. Scrubs out easily. I also get a kick out of the flash and noise from certain powders.
Blue Dot for example, the guy next to me at the indoor range last weekend, looked at me and said, what the H*#^ buddy 😀
Yup, 10mm is fun so far. It kind of rolls what I like about Glock pistols and magnum revolvers into a medium sized loud burrito.
Also, I will be ordering some heavier bullets to try at some point.
With the Extreme 200 gr. RNFP HBCP I have had VERY GOOD numbers with 800X. I seem to get higher then stated fps from 800X, but no abnormal pressure signs. From the RIA and Sig., most ES less then 30 (OK, one 42, one 36, 2 @ 21, rest under 20!!), and this is with 10 different loads! Many SD in the single dig. Blue Dot did OK, not great. Trying CFE this time too.