Would you like to see a 10mm Auto Rim???
If so please let Starline know and if enough people ask and state how much they would buy who knows...they are now making .41 Special aren't they...and there are not even any dedicated .41 Special revolvers commercially made...just customs.
https://www.starlinebrass.com/about-us/contact-us.cfm
Just click on Select One and put in New Cartridge Suggestion...
Thanks...Bob
I had contacted Starline about making a 9x25 head stamped brass previously. Their response was that for a price they would make it even with a personal headstamp... 8)
The case may get drawn long enough to get Herter's .401 PowerMag brass. That will be a hot seller. :D
From what the guy who had the first run of .41 Special brass made about 10 years ago said it was 55K pieces plus the cost of a headstamp die.
Don't forget you may need to convince Hornady, RCBS, Lee or somebody to make a shell holder to fit.
That said 10mm Auto Rim brass would probably lead me to buy a GP-100...
Quote from: The_Shadow on May 03 2018 07:42:51 PM MDT
I had contacted Starline about making a 9x25 head stamped brass previously. Their response was that for a price they would make it even with a personal headstamp... 8)
Done.
Sam
The concept is good but I would prefer to have a Charter Arms extraction/ejection system. Charter Arms is now selling .41 Magnum Revolvers under the Mag Pug moniker. It weighs 23 ounces and is a beast!
Why not just use full moon clips? I had a Smith & Wesson M1917 and later a Model 1955, both in .45ACP. The auto rim cartridges were a drag. I stuck to using full moon clips and they worked great. If I had a 10mm revolver that's what I would want to use, moon clips
Since the parent case is the 30 Rem, the twin rimmed version is the 30-30......... cut down down and stuffed was what I was working on .......30-30 has a large rim and may or may not fit in your 6 gun.......I haven't tried my RedHawk yet.....
Your mileage may very ...... :))
Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but it was interesting to me. I shoot 10mm through a Blackhawk, and I can't see where rimmed brass would make any difference in a single-action revolver vs. the typical rimless brass. But it seems interesting nonetheless.
So I started messing around a little. I found that chopping a .30-30 case to the correct length did indeed produce something of the correct diameter that would drop into my cylinder with no issue. I find the .30-30 also has a rim diameter very close to the .45 Colt, which means they will all fit in the cylinder without interfering with eachother. (yes, I chopped 6 of these and tried it out).
The one real issue is that cutting down .30-30 rifle cases results in a rimmed pistol case with a case wall thickness at the neck of around .025" thick. Regular 10mm brass is only around .010" thick at the neck. Attempting to bell the neck and seat a bullet did not turn out very well. It will be necessary to turn the case necks.
I don't have a neck turning tool for my RCBS trimmer, but I've been looking for an excuse for a while now so I went ahead and ordered one. Unfortunately this will only let me trim the OD of the neck. RCBS makes an ID boring tool, but they are caliber-specific, and only go up to as large a .375". So I'll have to see what it looks like if I turn the OD of the neck.
More to come...
Curious to see how this works out. I would try it too, but doubt it will work.
I am totally baffled as to why anybody would be doing this. I have auto pistols that chamber and feed the 10mm Auto cartridge just fine. I have revolvers in 10mm that do the same thing just as reliably. So why is this needed?
I bought a Smith & Wesson Model 610 in 1991. I still shoot it. I use moon clips. They work great.
I can honestly tell you that in all these years of being in a network of fellow 10mm collectors and shooters, I have never heard anybody say,"You know, I need some 10mm rimmed brass." ;D
Until now... :P
I had the same reaction when this thread was posted a year and a half ago.
But, there are revolvers in 10mm. Same basic principles that drove the creation of the 45 auto-rim are driving this request. I don't have a 10mm revolver, and I have never had a revolver chambered in a rimless cartridge. I can imagine that moon clips might get old.
Love my moon clips and can not imagine now having to load 6 rounds, one at a time. Sure it takes some time loading them before hand but not that much longer than loading magazines. Since I do not have to set up my brass catcher ( it is not that time consuming ) and chase down brass like I did before I made the catcher, it does not take any longer to use the clips and if fact seems to take less time. Have a 610, Gp100, and a 625 and love full moon clips. So for me, I am not interested in ar brass.
Well, jiminthe burg is right- using full or half moon clips takes no more time than using speedloaders. Since the first revolver was chambered in an auto pistol cartridge, it was clearly understood that a properly manufactured cylinder does not need rimmed brass.
This is a case of someone TRYING to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. And as a member and lurker on several other forums- some of which are very 10mm focused- I do not remember ever reading any comments about the need for this.
It's sorta like putting a screen door on a submarine. You can, but what does it accomplish?
If you're going to all the trouble to make special rimmed 10mm brass, you might as well make it full magnum length around 1.3".
With the new interest in the 10mm these days, it would not surprise me if one of the big guys trots out a 40 Magnum revolver. Maybe SHOT 2020.
Tony
Quote from: TonyRumore on December 05 2019 03:13:59 PM MST
If you're going to all the trouble to make special rimmed 10mm brass, you might as well make it full magnum length around 1.3".
With the new interest in the 10mm these days, it would not surprise me if one of the big guys trots out a 40 Magnum revolver. Maybe SHOT 2020.
Tony
And maybe I could convince you to build another M1 carbine like your dad's? I would even be willing to accept it in the standard 10mm case... :D
Quote from: TonyRumore on December 05 2019 03:13:59 PM MST
If you're going to all the trouble to make special rimmed 10mm brass, you might as well make it full magnum length around 1.3".
With the new interest in the 10mm these days, it would not surprise me if one of the big guys trots out a 40 Magnum revolver. Maybe SHOT 2020.
Tony
Every time I pick up my 10mm revolvers I think how ,I have more impressive they would be as a 10mm magnum.....
.401 PowerMag would be a simple solution...
If HKS speedloaders were made for the 10mm Auto RIm it may prove useful in the woods. A pouch used to carry .41 Magnum HKS speedloaders would function quite well. Then again, pouches used to hold 10mm cartridges in moon clips would allow you to carry between 18-24 cartridges for immediate use in a "combat" situation.
Either way, it would work rather well. (Six of one, a half-dozen of the other).
Quote from: RJM52 on December 06 2019 08:25:34 PM MST
.401 PowerMag would be a simple solution...
Like THAT round turned out a winner! ROFL!!!
I love the idea of a rimmed 10mm cartridge. Not so much because I can't do without it but because semi auto cartridges are so massively efficient/powerful for their size. If a revolver were specifically made for the 9mm rimmed cartridge (1980's) and made as small (shorter cylinder) as possible, you'd get a lot of gun in a tiny package. Same for the 40, 10mm and 45 acp. Problem is these cartridges either with rims or moon clips are put in revolvers needlessly large for these efficient cartridges. So we get a Blackhawk, GP-100, N frame Smith or whatever that is sized for a much larger/longer cartridge. So I can take a heavily loaded 357, lightly loaded 41 mag and all sorts of combinations of existing rimmed cartridges that are already in place. That is tough to compete against.
As good as full moon clips can be, America does not have much love for them. Great ideas often fail as gun owners have a hard to predict mix of tradition, cool, effectiveness and pointlessness. I think the 6 shot GP-100 in 10mm comes closer than anything else to maxing out the potential of a 10mm in a revolver. All the more so if the cartridge were rimmed. Pretty much what Ruger has already done with the GP in 5 shot 44 Special form.
Sorry. I know this is some rambling. But I love putting rims on semi auto cartridges. Moon clips are good but they are not the end all. They belong as an option on the 10mm case. But I don't think anybody is going to build a new gun around it and a LOT more existing guns will have to be sold before manufactures will spend any more money on the project.
Spudmeister,
Could you please explain how a rim on a rimless cartridge improves performance? This reminds me of the guy who wanted more chrome on his 'Vette "so it would go faster".
Did you ever stop to consider that the potential of the 10mm cartridge possibly will not and cannot be maximized in a revolver? Just because you can get the square peg into that round hole does not mean it works good or even better than it does in it's own square hole.
WW...
It is easy to explain. It's easy because I did not explain my point well in the first place. The rim, of course, has no effect on performance. But if you take a 41 magnum you get a much longer case that only gives a little bit more power. The shorter the barrel the less the difference is. Take a 9mm and a hot 38 Special. They give about the same performance but the 9mm is much shorter. So if you put a rim on a 9mm case you get about the same performance as that hot 38 but with a much smaller case that can be put into a revolver with a much shorter cylinder. Same thing with 10mm vs 41. Then you can maintain performance in a smaller gun. Not that the industry really does that. It is to say that many semi auto cartridges simply do more with less than a lot of revolver cartridges.... though revolver cartridges are sometimes more powerful. Just not as efficient. I've spent years with full moon clips. It is personal choice to prefer rims.
And you are quite right that it is mighty difficult for a revolver to match the velocity of a sealed breach semi auto. But it also mighty difficult for a semi auto to allow the variance in bullet design, pressure, bullet weight and LOA. So I think, like rims and full moon clips, it is nice to be able to pick your poison.
Spudmeister,
You can't always get what you want when using a shorter barrel. Some cartridges just don't perform in short barrels under ANY circumstances.
The 10mm has the same handicap that 9mm has in short barrels- the short case and minimal powder capacity restrict the choices of powder that would give desirable performance. Try to go to heavier bullets for the 10mm and your powder choices are restricted even further to the point of being like .40 S&W loads. In other words, some cartridges MUST have more barrel to perform.
Don't agree? Let's look at the .264 Winchester Magnum. When Winchester released this cartridge, all performance data was based on a 26" barrel. Put that cartridge in a 24" or 23" barrel, as most riflemakers use, and your performance drops dramatically. The cartridge MUST HAVE all of that barrel length to meet it's design parameters. The 10mm is no different.
There is definitely a point of diminishing returns with the 10mm- a 2.75, 2.5, 2.25 inch (or even shorter) barrel robs the load of so much performance that it is an exercise in futility. You are far better off figuring out how to put .357 Sig in a revolver.
On another note, could you explain why revolvers would need to get even smaller than they are? I have a Taurus 85 and a SP101. Do we need to go smaller? As we go smaller with revolvers, accuracy and control suffer.
One more thing...
Comparing the 10mm with the .41 Magnum is ridiculous. They are 2 different designs, made to work differently, in different shooting platforms, with different projectiles. How can you possibly say that a rim on a 10mm would allow you to match the performance of a .41 mag??? Since when could a 10mm cartridge shoot a 265 grain bullet at 1300 FPS? Or shoot a 295 grain SWC? What's the heaviest bullet the 10mm can shoot? 220 or 230 grain? There's that diminishing returns thing again- those bullets are longer, will require longer C.O.A.L. to get enough powder in the case to push them faster, and will not fit in your short cylinder.
You said,
"And you are quite right that it is mighty difficult for a revolver to match the velocity of a sealed breach semi auto. But it also mighty difficult for a semi auto to allow the variance in bullet design, pressure, bullet weight and LOA"
What do you plan to shoot out of your 10mm? A Volkswagon or a dining room chair? Virtually any load made to SAAMI standards will safely work in any 10mm pistol. Sometimes a bit of tuning is needed for a particular load or gun but if it is so odd that you need a revolver to make it shoot, maybe you should rethink your premise?
WW...
Well, I have explained my opinion twice to you and your purpose only seems to tear it down. You are not listening or you cannot understand or your experience is limited. In any case, I have said what I have said. If you do not like it, too bad. I am tired of you and your attitude. Carry on and go bother somebody else!
Yes, you did state some opinions and when asked to discuss FACTS, you get mad and start making personal attacks. Is it not possible for you to have a discussion about your ideas without turning nasty when someone disagrees with you?
Apparently you missed the point of a "Discussion Forum". Someone makes a statement and others respond. It's too bad you don't have either the faith of conviction in your ideas OR the ability to engage in a conversation. The differences between people often produce better results than their similarities.
Quote from: TonyRumore on December 05 2019 03:13:59 PM MST
If you're going to all the trouble to make special rimmed 10mm brass, you might as well make it full magnum length around 1.3".
With the new interest in the 10mm these days, it would not surprise me if one of the big guys trots out a 40 Magnum revolver. Maybe SHOT 2020.
Tony
I'd really like to see this happen. Particularly if all I needed to change was my shellplate with my current 10mm dies. That would also justify a rimmed 10mm case for lighter loads like the.38/.357.
Something the .41 mag has always lacked is a commercially available lighter practice round.
Quote from: woods_walker on December 07 2019 09:52:42 AM MST
Spudmeister,
Could you please explain how a rim on a rimless cartridge improves performance? This reminds me of the guy who wanted more chrome on his 'Vette "so it would go faster".
Did you ever stop to consider that the potential of the 10mm cartridge possibly will not and cannot be maximized in a revolver? Just because you can get the square peg into that round hole does not mean it works good or even better than it does in it's own square hole.
The original expression was "if it dont go- CHROME IT! The expression is self explanatory.
Second part; there are revolvers rounds that produce uver 50,000 PSI SAAMI certified. Actually 60,000. Thus if you wished to and say a Redhawk was your vehicle you coulld possibly reach 1500FPS with the 10mm and 180gr bullets. Thats increased potential. Next in line is that there are some semiautos that can group in the 1" at 50 yds standard, but that not with standing there aremore than a few revolvers that can shoot that well at 100 yds with proper sights and a tight nut on the handle. Verry, verry few semis can do that- some can but not in the same quantity. That is another potential boost for the 10mm.
Ive never handled a 401 Powermag. They were few in number many years before Cooper birthed the 10mm. The 10mm is from a different era and for differentneeds. I personally wish the 10 had a smidgen more capacity and perhaps 10% more horsepressure. Id be delighted with a 10 mag semiauto. My hands are big enough to handle the increase in stock/grip size.
rognp,
The hoped-for point of my analogy was the concept of believing you can do more or get more by changing the appearance of something.
The prior "discussion" offered up the idea of putting a rim on a 10mm case with no other changes, stuffing it in a smaller revolver than the .38 Special class, and believing one would somehow get more performance out of it.
On the other hand...
You can have everything you want - 10mm bore, Super Redhawk, 10mm case having more capacity and more horsepower, 1500 fps with a 180 grain- by reaming the 10mm Super Redhawk to 10mm Magnum. My Automag IV runs 180 gr. Hornady XTP's at over 1600 fps. My 10" Contender will run them scary fast. And every bit of the accuracy you would expect from the 10mm is still there in the 10 Mag. But you can't get there with the standard 10mm case because it doesn't have the powder volume.
The 10mm Magnum is the cartridge everybody wants when they say they want a 10mm to perform like a .41 Magnum. The problem is, there ARE big heavy bullets made for the .41, and the magnum case (and the guns) shoot them quite well. There is nothing in the .400" diameter that compares unless going to rifle bullets. Do that and it's yet another issue with overall length and barrel twist.
You REALLY owe it to yourself to look into the 10mm Magnum. I'm baffled as to why so many 10mm Auto fans have never heard of it.
I get what spudmeister is saying.
Taking the 41 magnum as a case in point. It is slightly smaller 44 magnum, which was a slightly longer 44 special. The case capacity of the 44 Special was determined based on the needed case size for smokeless powder circa 1907. However, the technology of smokeless powder at that time was much lower energy density than we have today. It is no small coincidence that the case length was the same as the 38 Special (1898). This allowed tooling to be standardized on a cylinder length.
What is my point? Revolver cylinder length standards were driven based on state of the art energy density 1898. There have been more than a few advancements in that regard since that time.
Putting a 10mm in a revolver with a cylinder frame sized for a 1.60" length cartridge is a recipe for waste. The bullets are jumping nearly half an inch of freebore to reach rifling, which is not great for accuracy or velocity. And the guns are not only 1/2" longer than they need to be, but are disproportionately heavier than needed because you are carrying the extra weight times six for each cylinder (probably close to 3 oz of weight).
A scandium frame "310PD" built from the ground up around a 10mm Auto length cartridge could weight under 10 oz and be less than 6" overall length, while delivering 5 shots of full power 10mm defense. That sounds like a pocker revolver I could get excited about.
Now, how much a 10mm auto-rim would contribute to this reality I don't know. But it wouldn't hurt.
Another thing that bugs me....
Back in 1898 when the 38 Special came out, prototyping and bringing to production was hard, labor intensive work. Today, the costs to bring a new cartridge to market is much lower. Yet the evaluation is based percentage of market capture, not number of end users. This expands profit margins at the expense of product diversity in a large market. The cost to introduce and produce limited runs of a 10mm Auto-Rim would be a fraction of the costs of the 45 Auto Rim, especially since it can be derived from 30-30. But, the profit margins would not be huge, so no one does it.
One thing that has recently happened in the bullet market is the Solid Copper and Solid Brass projectiles with same for HP and break apart designs. While these bullets tend to be somewhat longer that lead core copper jackets stuff they could prove to be better suited as true hunting performance projectiles. We have seen many copper plated, lead core copper cup jacketed bullets perform poorly when driven at excessive speeds. Jacket separations, loss of accuracy are but a few.
Therefore with such bullets from Cutting Edge, Barnes, Lehigh I see the potential of using such projectiles for the 10mm magnum in the field for the purpose.
However, its tough to beat the great performance of the 44 magnum which is only slightly larger in diameter.
To each their own and I know we all love the 10mm auto for what it brings to the table as a semi auto package for conceal ability, many pistol platforms to suit anyone and even longer hunting versions to provide longer sight radius and barrel lengths for long distance performance.
Long live the 10mm cartridge and firearms developments for us all to enjoy! ;D
I have a S&W 1955 Target revolver. If you plan to use clips in a revolver get Moon and Demoon devises.
California Competion makes the Moon tools.. Dillon Precision stocks these. For me the Moon clips have tested
my patients.