Hey Folks,
So does a primer alone (in most cases) without a powder charge have enough pressure to cause a squib? I have in the past kept a few primed, uncharged cases in my caliper box for checking my cartridge OAL (never again) and have ended up with an unaccounted rd when completing my customary Sunday afternoon hundred rd hobby time. Also, I have labeled that particular container that one rd may have an issue ...Thoughts?
Thanks
Ken
I would weight each of those 100 rounds. The one without the powder will weigh noticeably less than the others. As far as the squib load, I would think that a primer alone would definitely stick one in the barrel.
Kenk, yes it is possible for a primer to generate enough pressure to force a bullet into a barrel's freebore / forcing cone. (depending on the barrel)
Now will it push far enough for the next cartridge to fully chamber, maybe not! (again depending on the barrel's freebore and truing cone cut)
It is possible to get a scale (digital would be faster) to determine if there is no powder inside especially if the difference is > 1 or 2 grains.
Yea, If I can't find and verify the uncharged rd by weighing them, I'll be shooting this batch about as slow as it gets...not that I ever do a bunch of fast shooting with the G20 : )
Thanks Folks!
It is definitely possible for a primer to push a bullet far enough in to the barrel to chamber another round, in some guns. I've seen it happen a couple of times. My own experience, only had one primer only squib, did not go far enough to chamber another round. You should be able to feel and hear the difference.
Yep, I was thinking the same thing
yes as mentioned...
I still load and shoot wax bullets by just a primer for fun in winter...of course not as heavy as reg round, but is a good training for a nubie ( obv works best in revolver, but can manual feed )
They hit pretty hard.
My dummy rounds are not primed and painted with nail polish
Stacked tolerances mean you may see more than a powder charge of variance. Been down this road with 5.56 once. See lets say your cases all weigh the same ± 3 grains. And you bullets are all ±1 grain. And you primers are all ±.25 grains. And your powder charges are ±.1, except that one case.
Add all those up (6+2+.5+.2) and you have 8.7 grains of variation from lightest to heaviest. And a 3 grain case tolerance and 1 grain bullet tolerance are pretty good. They really are probably more like ±5/6 and ±1.5/2, which means the total variance is probably more like a double powder charge.
IMHO the only real option is to pull. It will be a pain in the butt, but far less than replacing a gun or living without eyes or fingers.
Agree on pulling them. I was almost positive I did't get powder in one .45acp case during a late night long reloading session. Weighing them was useless because of all the variations listed above. I even pulled all the lightest ones first. Ended up pulling the entire batch. Peace of mind was worth it.
Question then, why couldn't I shoot them one at a time, say bring 5 or 10 each trip to the range, and only put one in the magazine, shoot, and load another? When I get to the offending rd, no recoil / small report, disassemble the pistol, and inspect the barrel, or is this still a bad idea...Thoughts
If you are going that route, don't rely on bang and feeling alone. Make sure you see a new hole in the target with each shot.
Quote from: Kenk on April 22 2018 04:59:00 PM MDT
Hey Folks,
So does a primer alone (in most cases) without a powder charge have enough pressure to cause a squib? I have in the past kept a few primed, uncharged cases in my caliper box for checking my cartridge OAL (never again) and have ended up with an unaccounted rd when completing my customary Sunday afternoon hundred rd hobby time. Also, I have labeled that particular container that one rd may have an issue ...Thoughts?
Thanks
Ken
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Kenk on April 22 2018 04:59:00 PM MDT
Hey Folks,
So does a primer alone (in most cases) without a powder charge have enough pressure to cause a squib? I have in the past kept a few primed, uncharged cases in my caliper box for checking my cartridge OAL (never again) and have ended up with an unaccounted rd when completing my customary Sunday afternoon hundred rd hobby time. Also, I have labeled that particular container that one rd may have an issue ...Thoughts?
Thanks
Ken
I will say maybe(but not overly likely as there are too many factors that would make it possible), if the bullet is pushed far enough to get into the barrel and it goes far enough that you can manually chamber another round you could have issues. Other things that make it a case by case possibility, like actual land and groove diameter in regards to actual bullet diameter/weight &throat/lead in the chamber.
TG it only happened to me once, that was in my 686 w/158 jsp, the primer pushed the bullet far enough into the bore that had I been using a lighter bullet i may have had issues(if i were shooting extremely fast), thankfully just enough of the heel of the bullet caught the cylinder and it wouldn't rotate. It took a good amount of tapping with a dowel to remove the obstruction.
A more likely cause of concern (sqib)is improper powder/charge that will actually cause a serious problem.
The primer most likely will just push the bullet far enough that you cannot get another round to chamber.
But again it is not an exact science and there is no "rule of thumb".
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Another thing is that a squib round is likely not going to eject a spent casing! This should be a very strong indicator to check and not just rack in another cartridge...
Yep, I will either pull them or watch the paper very closely, either way, another huge learning experience
Thanks Folks
Ken
So if I were to pull all 102 of these, then continuing with all of the normal steps, is it very likely I will have any lose bullet issues once they have been crimped? Lastly (quite possibly a really dumb question) if I do run info lose bullets, is it possible to resize the brass once the decapping pin has been removed from my RCBS sizing die, and then continuing with all of the normal steps.
Thanks in advance
Ken
Ken, you didn't say what powder you used but you might try shaking them between the thumb and the fore finger. If you can feel the powder in the case shaking around, you just eliminated it as a round with no powder. If you can't feel one or ten, then you only need to pull those. If you can't feel any of them , then you're back to square one and will have to pull all of them until you find the one without the powder.
It's been my experience that the bullet once removed allows the brass to go back to the sized dimensions. Most likely you won't have to resize them. If you are doing a crimp, the crimp will hold bullet in place. That's the function of the crimp.
Thanks Trapper, I'm using 10.4gr's of Blue Dot, filling aprx half the case. I may try using my game ears amplified hearing protection and see how that works
At 10.4 grains of powder you would see that difference fairly easily with a loaded pistol cartridge unless you have different weight bullets in the mix.
I would weigh each looking for the differences.
You could pull them down, all of them. But my advice would be to remove the decapping pin, resize and use the expander die as normal, then reload powder and bullets. When you get them crimped I would check for any bullet movement, in/out, or if it turns inside the casing.
Doing some pull-down documentations of some commercially reloaded/re-man that exhibited set back issues, it was found that the PPU cases where in fact not holding there resized dimensions. As part of the process of investigating this by taking measurements and resizing not working to hold these bullets I actually did a quick and dirty annealing of these cases to remove the work hardening and soften them to hold the re-sized dimensions http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/lax-180gr-fmj-plated-(ic-51714)-pull-down/msg31648/#msg31648 (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/lax-180gr-fmj-plated-(ic-51714)-pull-down/msg31648/#msg31648)
These were the worse case scenario, but it showed what was needed to correct the situation.
Great info Shadow, Thanks man!
I have similar cases around, however always mark the primer area, writing in the headstamp, etc with either fluorescent green or orange finger nail polish. I usually do not put a primer in the rounds that I use to setup my bullet seating die for initial OAL. Be safe finding the missing case.
Thanks Curtis, I marked mine yesterday, not sure why I didn't think about that in the first place
When making "DUMMY" rounds you can use hot glue or a rubber eraser in place of a primer.
Another suggestion is to glue the bullet in place to help secure it from movement if you are cycling them or running misfire drills.
You can seat the bullet and crimp it in a casing without the primer installed, then drip some super glue down the flash hole, let it cure. Then fill the primer pocket with hot glue or with the rubber eraser to cap it off.
I liked using the CCI "aluminum" cases or the "Dummy" rounds as I could drill out the berdan primers for these projects. The aluminum cases also hold permanent marker colors well.
Great ideas, Thanks!
After assembling a few new primed Starline cases with 180gr HAP bullets / no powder charge, I came up with aprx 255.54 grains. After weighing 98 of the 102 cartridges, knowing I had one without a charge, and knowing the correct weight should be aprx 267.66 grains, I came across one that weighed 256 gr's, I pulled it and presto, no powder : )
See that wasn't as bad as you thought! ::) When you have that much difference to work with it does make things like this much easier with disconcert. :-[
Glad you found that one. In the documentations of ammo sent to me, I of the rounds sent was way short on powder (only 0.6 grains) was actually loaded. What are the chances that that was the one that was sent and not actually shot during his range secession! ::)
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/357-magnum-factorycommercial-load-pulldown/msg9980/#msg9980 (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/357-magnum-factorycommercial-load-pulldown/msg9980/#msg9980)
Thanks for everyone's help on this!
Old thread I know.
Somehow I had not seen it.
I have been loadin 220's looked for data but found little to none. Ran across a thread using long shot and staining 1050 FPS. I was sure more was safely attainable from good longer bbls.
I looked to BlueDot. Started at 6.5g. Went to 8.2 then 8.5. I did not find excessive pressures and I made the velocity I was happy with. 1250 in a 6". Almost 1100 from my G29!
Accuracy was sub 6" @ 50 me shooting off hand.
Blue dot has long been a. Favorite heavy cast bullet powder.
My bullets are powder coated. Zero fouling is found in factory Glock and aftermarket barrels.
CW
If you don't already have one, Kinetic Bullet Pullers are relativity inexpensive
And (if used right) they'll retain all your Components for reuse
Here's a Name Brand for under $20.00, shipped:
https://www.pawtygo.com/deals/lyman-magnum-inertia-bullet-puller-coupon?gclid=CjwKCAjwgbLzBRBsEiwAXVIygNlV2lWwuOuU0e9rpBq8k5PkHlz6JzicLz8MPsnlpgf8zMNvcua9CxoCbWQQAvD_BwE
Thanks, looks very similar to my RCBS puller
If I had to buy a new one that would be the puller I'd get!
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 23 2018 12:59:00 PM MDT
If you are going that route, don't rely on bang and feeling alone. Make sure you see a new hole in the target with each shot.
Probably even more better to make sure theres a hole thru the barrel. Stacking of tolerances could be a senior instant or someone heping on your target.
I had a squib in my .40, and the primer drove the 165 grain bullet well into the barrel. I was shooting steel for speed at the time, but it wasn't difficult to figure out that it was time to quit shooting. I think that only a rather inexperienced shooter wouldn't immediately know what had happened. If someone handed me a box of ammo with one squib in it I'd happily shoot away until I found the squib. I think the risk of shooting another round with the squib stuck in the barrel is negligible for anyone who shoots enough to load their own.