This evening I was resizing some 1 or 2 fired Starline 10mm cases. These cases have only been loaded and fired with the Montana Bullet 200gr WFN bullet, 8.6gr of Longshot with an LOA of 1.200". I have shot this load (and previously with everything the same except a Beartooth 200 gr WFN bullet) many hundreds of times. There is no history of this load being hard on brass. Most but not all was fired previously in aftermarket barrels.
I recently fired 100 rounds of this ammo in a G20 and G40. Both with OEM barrels. They shot fine. But 1 case in 10 developed a ridge of brass. Not a bulge. Not a Glock smile but a ridge that catches on the carbide portion of the resizing die. There is no sign of a hole or defect in any of the brass and it all ran fine in both guns. But that ridge is a mystery to me. Anybody have any ideas. See the attached pictures.
Thank you
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It looks like a glock smile to me..... A bulge is def different
IMO, that brass goes in the garbage
Yep, garbage glock smiles all over that brass get Sr1911 lol
Thanks for the feedback guy. The only Glock smiles I've ever experienced were about 4 years ago. It was about 4 years ago I shot my last Underwood full pressure ammo. Nothing I have ever loaded myself gave a Glock smile. What I spoke about above is not the Glock smiles I recall. Rather than a typical bulge these are a ridge raised up. Hence my request for information here. This condition seems to have come out of nowhere. After decades or reloading there is always something new to learn and keep me humble.
So I did more research and the ridges and found some examples of it that were considered to be Glock smiles. Not expansion but ridges. Right now I do not understand the reasons why this has happened with nearly new brass and what is different. And the problem may be specific to only one of the two Glock's the ammo was shot in.
Thanks again. Work to do.
A bulge is n expansion that is equal around the entire base of the case...you can see it but not feel it, those lines ( smiles ) are micro fractures of the brass.
It could be, as mentioned, most others were fired in non stock barrels ( esp since you mentioned it was 10% ) compared to the looser stock barrel.
Or the LS powder weigh may be on the upper edge for your gun, thought the max load was lower than used... Also the OAL seems a bit short but may be needed for the bullet to feed.
Spudmeister, With the COL that short (1.2000") I'd say that is suspect to jacking up the pressures to give the "SMILE". Shortest 200 grain cast I have seen is 1.2400" - 1.2420".
Any time you go below the 1.2500" for 10mm you have to really study things especially working at the very upper limits.
I don't care how good you think your powder drop is, if you are not hand weighing each and every powder charge, a 1/10 or 2/10's becomes a lot at the upper levels. Progressive presses can vary the powder dropped especially with certain powder types.
If you wish to try that load again, I would suggest hand weighing the powder charges and seat to 1.2500" to see if the SMILES disappear.
Thanks Shadow,
It's amazing how a load can work for years and then give a problem. I came up with this LOA as it fed well through all my 10mm Glocks and with all sorts of loads. I started out running them at 1.250" and had feeding and chambering problems in the 5.3" Storm Lake barrel. I was just downstairs looking at the loading history binder. It seems dropping the load .2 to .4 gr will achieve the same pressure goals as seating the bullet out but without the extensive testing to make sure it works in all 5 guns and 8 barrels.
Thanks again for your input.
Spudmeister. by chance are you running those with a newer lot of powder? At the extremes an upper end loading with different powder lot, that may be a little more energetic can also be of concerns.
Yep. Changing any component, including the lot of powder, means reduce 10% and work back up.
Shadow,
The loads with the brass ridges were all loaded a year ago and with powder that is now 2-4 years old. I'm still scratching my head over this as the load has been a zero issue for years and hundred of rounds. I have a hog hunt in 6 weeks and need to turn this around quickly. "Plan B" will start with some reduced loads and test from there.
Yes a friend of mine brought out his Glock 20 last week to do some shooting with me and some other guy's at my house. Him and I were the only ones shooting 10mm the rest had 40s or 9mm. My friend with the Glock 20 dosen't reload so he was shooting Sig ammo FMJ 180gr. When we were done shooting he ask if I wanted the empty brass, I took a look at all the brass that was shot out of his Glock 20 and told him all that once fired brass is NO GOOD ITS JUNK!!
He then looked at my reloads which were coming out of the chrono alot faster then his and ask"why dosen't you brass look this bad" I said because I shoot my 10s out of a 1911 :)) I don't know what gen his Glock was, but it was sure hard on that Sig ammo!! Dam and I sure could have used some once fired brass :(
I use a stock G20/3...
Have used both the Sig ball and hp ammo and have had no issues with the brass as far as smiles. ( really like the ammo, btw )
Will say that def the G20 has a looser chamber area over my Sig 220/10mm , but most cases come out in the .432 range ...with a all round slight bulge ( nothing that can't be fixed with a normal sizing on the press )
The Sig cases are def smaller at .426....
2 things. First, I love my Glock's and am not planning on getting a 1911 :P. Gotta admit though... some of those new Dan Wesson's are really tempting. Second, Think I figured out what is going on with the ridges forming on my brass. The brass used for the 8.6gr Longshot loads with the 200gr WFN bullets is marked and used exclusively for the purpose. The ammo is only fired about one month a year in preparation for hog hunting (I shoot lots of other and lighter ammo year round). I think these hard ridges have started to form after the 3rd or 4th firing. When I shot Underwood nuclear ammo the smiles would start to form on the first firing. Sooooo... I think the pressures are high but not nuclear. When forming loads I do multiple firings with the same load to test for extended effects of pressure and this load passed with flying colors. Hence, the head scratching.
Per Shadows comments.... While reloading yesterday I tried seating the bullet (200gr WFN MON) out further than 1.200". At 1.235" the round fed and chambered easily. At 1.245" the round fed but would not chamber while gently letting the slide down. This was with the OEM G40. Maybe it would be worth exploring moving the bullet out to 1.235"??
I've dropped the charge down to 8.3gr of Longshot on the 1.200" loads and am using the troublesome brass only that it does not currently show any signs of pressure. 17 rounds in the OEM G40 and 17 rounds in the OEM G20. Testing should be this weekend. I really enjoy this sort of thing.
Well.... the plot thickens. I went out in the 50 mph gusts today and chrono'd the new 8.3gr Longshot loads. 15 rounds in the OEM G20 and 17 rounds in the OEM G40. This is brass from the same group that showed the ridges... only I culled through for the ones showing no pressure problems. Essentially the same brass but one more firing. The 8.6gr load that this thread is about gave me ridges (my version of a Glock smile I suppose) in 10 out of 100 cases. Today's 8.3gr load gave me 1 ridge in 1 case out of 32 rounds. Hardly the scientific method but encouraging anyway.
I chrono'd 5 rounds in the G20 and in the G40. With a .3 gr drop in powder the MV of the 8.3gr load was virtually identical to the 8.6 load tested about a year ago. The G40 only lost 20 fps vs the higher charge. That is still 1,230 fps with the G40.
Next I'll reuse this same brass and do the test all over again. The only difference will be a drop to 8.1 gr of Longshot.
Here's a tip--my G29 has a Storm Lake barrel, shooting 13.5gr/#9/180gr cast, the Starline brass has been reloaded 13 times & still going. Fired cases measure .4280 @ base. 8)
Quote from: Duck of Death on March 03 2018 04:42:47 PM MST
Here's a tip--my G29 has a Storm Lake barrel, shooting 13.5gr/#9/180gr cast, the Starline brass has been reloaded 13 times & still going. Fired cases measure .4280 @ base. 8)
Hey Duck,
Specifically what bullet are you using? LOA? MV?
Thanks
Looks the I am back on solid ground. I fired 15 rounds of 8.0gr Longshot with the specs above in the OEM G20 and 15 identical rounds with the G40 OEM.
OEM G20 With Longshot
8.6gr gave 1,165 fps
8.3gr gave 1,171 fps
8.0gr gave 1,139 fps
OEM G40 with Longshot
8.6gr gave 1,250 fps
8.3gr gave 1,230 fps
8.0gr gave 1,208 fps
The cases from the last test firing were re used. This time there were no ridges formed on the cases. There were some pressure signs and I'm sure the brass is about trashed from all this. But no ridges. For the time being it would seem the 8.0gr load is the way to go.
Yet I keep trying to figure out where I went wrong (if you want to call it that). At the very least the 8.6gr load of Longshot with the 200 gr Montana bullet makes more pressure than I thought. I have just 1 year of history with the Montana bullet but 5 years of experience with the almost identical Beartooth bullet. And I assumed there would be little difference in the 2. But going over the records again and the recent pressure issues makes me think the Montana bullet stacks pressure up more than the Beartooth bullet. The Montana bullet leads an OEM barrel less than the Beartooth. Remarkable since the Montana is a plain base and the Beartooth is a gas check base. I am guessing the Montana bullet obturates more/sooner than the Beartooth (which massively resists obturation making it's use unique in high pressure applications). The trade off is I did not appreciate the probable new pressure curve though I do know better.
So that is about it. The 8.0 gr load fills the pre hog hunt need. Just have to do some accuracy testing and run the load for a while to make sure no other gremlins show up. Thanks to everybody who offered help.... well... except you 1911 guys because I am too cheap to go buy one. :D
If you're just shooting for fun, why not back the load off?
Tony
Quote from: TonyRumore on March 04 2018 02:21:48 PM MST
If you're just shooting for fun, why not back the load off?
Tony
Hey Tony,
Well... sometimes just for fun is hot loads. But not so in this case. It is my hog hunting load. Not meant to be nuclear but certainly not meant to be mid range. I tried Underwood's ammo for a while and certainly backed off from that. Most practice loads are much milder.
The goal for this particular load is all the velocity, accuracy, reliability I can get in a fairly easy to shoot load. This thread is about how I exceeded that and missed it for a while.... and why. One of the the great joys of reloading is that after many decades I am still learning.
I understand, but if it's a hunting load, who cares if it destroys the brass. Chances are, you're not going to hunt around in the woods looking for your brass anyway.
Tony
Tony,
I think we are flying on separate beams here. For every single shot I take at a hog there are at least 300 practice rounds behind it. Loads that are identical in every way to the the one that matters. Would you change a tennis racket or golf clubs just before a match? It's about taking a professional's strain to do things right.
^ this. I am a firm believer in practicing with the same load that I hunt with. (or array) 8)
"QUOTE"
Specifically what bullet are you using? LOA? MV?
Summers--180 cast
OAL--1.250
Vel--??
Thanks Duck,
I never even hears of Summers bullets. Their prices sure look good. How good are the bullets? Can you guess on their hardness?
THX
Shot 5K so far. he says B18 & I believe it. Minimal leading using 13.5 #9(no crono yet, to much snow, but its a hot load). The barrel is kept shiny clean w/a couple shots of jacketed, I shoot 2 a week using 40SW.
Thanks D o D.... Their prices are your recommendation are too good not to give them a try.