I think about this all the time since my wife is a middle school teacher here in Central Ohio. I have lived here my whole life.
I am starting to think the roots of this are in the moral decay of society and the family unit, COMBINED with just plain evil - right now, on this topic, the devil is winning.
What are your thoughts?
Pat
There's a podcast by Jocko Willink where he interviews Jordan B Peterson. First of two interviews. Jordan B Peterson is a psychologist and mentions what causes people to decay to that level of school shootings. The whole interview is fantastic!
Update: went and found the episode on his site.
http://jockopodcast.com/2017/11/01/98-w-dr-jordan-peterson-facing-your-inner-darkness-breaking-your-wreched-loop-the-ulitmate-hero-is-dangerous-but-disciplined/
Glen Beck pooled a bunch of experts and wrote a great book about gun control and violence. It gets further into the data and psychology. There's definitely moral decay, especially in families. It's a great read and all the points really help in dealing with people arguing for all the gun control
https://www.amazon.com/Control-Exposing-Truth-About-Guns/dp/1476739870/ref=nodl_
John R Lott was one of the people that helped with that book. He has his own book called "More Guns Less Crime". That one really gets into the data. I can't remember if it goes into school shootings though.
https://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493660/ref=nodl_
Leo;
My wife hears this literally hears this every week from parents! Broken record.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-case-for-the-ldquo-self-driven-child-rdquo/
We keep making recess shorter, school days longer, school years longer. We add more and more homework, and we take away outlets like PE, music and arts.
All of this deprives our children of a sense of control in their life, which numerous studies as cited in the article above, predict will lead to mental health issues.
Further, this makes some children attempt to regain control by asserting control over their peers, AKA bullying.
We create a pressure cooker and put out kids in it, and then are surprised when they pop under pressure.
School should be 8:30 AM to 3:00 PM. In elementary school there should be two 30 minute recess breaks + a 40 minute lunch/recess break. There should be a twice a week PE period and once a week music period and art period outside the normal class. There should be no more than 1 hour of homework for the average child. (In reality studies show that homework doesn't increase standardized test scores, so I would kill it all together, but I think an hour can be tolerated)
Jr/sr high those two recess breaks should disappear. 40 minutes lunch+free time should remain. I have grown to appreciate the A/B alternating schedules, but I haven't read studies on it's overall impact. I know the longer class times are beneficial for math/science/engineering classes where labs and projects benefit from longer engagement periods. It's really hard to squeeze much engine/sheetmetal/welding work or a chemistry/physics lab into 45 minutes.
Again, homework doesn't do much for core course knowledge, though kids in AP classes should expect to study 45 min to an hour a night all year for AP tests. This should be self-directed study from the AP guide for the test(s), and that time is based on a heavy load of 3-4 AP's each year, so study is round robin, a different guide each night. The month before a college entrance exam like the ACT or SAT students should study the exam guide about 45 minutes three times a week.
Finally, we need more, smaller schools. Humans are inherently better socialized in smaller groups. Large schools with classes of 400-500 kids and a total population of 1500-2000 are stressors for most people. Schools tend to hit their core economy of scale at around 800-1000 total students.
Every one of you make excellent points, to which I agree. The root cause is EVIL. Not much I can add.
Quote from: Buckeye 50 on February 15 2018 06:41:19 PM MST
I think about this all the time since my wife is a middle school teacher here in Central Ohio. I have lived here my whole life.
I am starting to think the roots of this are in the moral decay of society and the family unit, COMBINED with just plain evil - right now, on this topic, the devil is winning.
What are your thoughts?
Pat
I am not religious but,
...for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
.
Quote from: sqlbullet on February 16 2018 08:46:50 AM MST
Finally, we need more, smaller schools. Humans are inherently better socialized in smaller groups. Large schools with classes of 400-500 kids and a total population of 1500-2000 are stressors for most people. Schools tend to hit their core economy of scale at around 800-1000 total students.
I would agree but social media has got to go. Reducing school size wouldn't help the fact that kids these days are part of a huge online community where any information can spread at lightning speed (good or bad). Kids are not capable of handling that amount of information/pressure overload. Honestly I think adults struggle with it as well.
Culture is also a problem. With religion on the decline where do people learn right from wrong and morality? Currently it would appear to be Facebook/Instagram/Twitter. We are doomed if this doesn't change.
This particular shooting looks to have been preventable. Amazing the amount of information an independent news source can dig up in under 24hrs that paints a much more accurate picture than what the news media is pushing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeA7HOF27xY
After that video came out it was discovered that someone even phoned in a tip to the FBI regarding this kid on the 5th of Jan, 2018 - stating he had a gun and was threatening to shoot up the school. No investigation was started in the local field office.
The biggest issue has to be disruptive family life. Both parents working, single parent family and broken family relations takes its toll on the children. Religion and religious teachings does help to instill respect for thy neighbor to a point if reinforced by family structure.
The parental role and supervision has to also guide by example with respect for oneself and other people and property!
News sources usually only show the bad things that take place. Movies & Video games glorify illegal activity and weapons, brain washing the minds of younger people on a daily basis. Social media isn't any better...example; Tide Pod challenges. Then some turn their attention to trying to fit in with gangs, this actually may entail illegal activity as initiation or acceptance...
Now, take a young, disturbed, unsupervised, adult reaching out, not being accepted by anyone, turns to any form of acting out, anger, for what ever reason and then unleashes that energy, without any clear focus to consequences for anyone or anything to include themselves.
Then it doesn't take much to grab what ever is at hand to implement an action anytime, anywhere! :(
sqlbullet, seriously? They did all that? No wonder.
I agree with moral decay. It's "all me not you. You don't matter" generation. I'm nearly 68 and I watched the society going to hell in a hand basket. As a society we were supposed to be working together and getting along as a group. Instead it became a wasteland.
By the way, they're using guns because it's too hard to get C4 and make bomb vests.
I agree on the above mentioned reasons they are all real problems that contribute to these events. but another one is troubling me. it seems to me that when ever the media is a buzz with some Democrat scandal or corruption being un covered, there is a horrific shooting that shifts everyone's attention away. leo 10-7 hit on the left's use of "Rules for Radicals" and the quote from Bill Ayers. these shootings fit right in with that mind set. why didn't the FBI follow up on the tips? probably because the political puke higher ups kept it from happening. what if they decided to LET this known problem kid shoot up the school? for the leftists it is a triple win. 1- something else to blame Trump for. 2- the anti gun hysteria is revived and 3- their own bad deeds get swept under the rug. with all the dirty dealings that are being uncovered on the Clinton/ Obama/ Soros gang. I wouldn't put it past them to do something this horrible! >:D
Blaster, what you are saying is that we are pawns in the games of political chess. We are expendable.
yes!
Quote from: Olgo on February 20 2018 06:37:53 PM MST
Blaster, what you are saying is that we are pawns in the games of political chess. We are expendable.
If you actually believe you live in a constitutional republic you are probably a product of the american "education" system.
My school days were the good ones. They taught us about the Government, the Senate and the Constitution. We had values back then.
It WAS a constitutional republic.
This sounds odd, but I hope it's something simple like a bad family life and a combination of psychotropic drugs. Part of me, however, thinks all these shootings are connected, planned out well in advance. We hear one side from the mainstream media, but there are many aspects to these shootings that don't add up with the official narrative. I'm just saying mind control is possible, it's even been admitted by the CIA.
You mean the aliens are telling us what to do?
Here's another real reason. The security is really lax. What happened here:
https://www.ksat.com/news/mother-walks-into-south-san-hs-unseen-to-prove-districts-need-for-extra-security
Here is another driver people at large don't recognize:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996208/
Effectively to summarize the article, living in urban/suburban areas increase the rate of mental illness.
In 1960 there were two rural dwellers for every urban dweller. Today it is 3.5 rural to 4 urban. And there are 4X as many people living in urban areas. Based on that alone we could predict a rise in per-capita rates.
All I know is there was no such thing as school shootings when I grew up. I blame a too permissive society where you can't hardly spank your kid for being bad any more without someone calling child protective services. These kids are growing up with no sense of right or wrong. If they are bad, go to time out? Where they can be amused by their cell pones, computers, and Wii? It's no longer even a punishment to be sent to their room.
Quote from: gandog56 on March 07 2018 05:41:45 PM MST
I blame a too permissive society where you can't hardly spank your kid for being bad any more without someone calling child protective services.
There are numerous studies that clearly show children who are subjected to corporal punishment have greater violent tendencies than children that are are disciplined via other means.
But, as a parent, you have to mean what you say, and say what you mean. You have to be consistent, respectful and attentive.
Quote from: gandog56 on March 07 2018 05:41:45 PM MST
All I know is there was no such thing as school shootings when I grew up.
Actually, there was, unless you are the oldest person on the planet by a couple of decades. But the rate has definitely gone up bunch in the last 20 years:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/ssrByDecade.png)
And the fatality rate in school shootings compared to population has increased as well:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/ssfrByDecade.png)
The mass shooting rates (>=5 fatalities) have correspondingly increased too:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/mssrByDecade.png)
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/mssfrByDecade.png)
But, here is the stat that I didn't expect once I had calculated the first four.
The fatality rate per school shooting is not really increasing much at all:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/sfrByDecade.png)
The news would have you believe that school shootings are on the rise because of "assault style weapons" and our "gun culture", and that shootings are more deadly today than ever before.
But the general data shows gun ownership rates in decline. In fact, households with guns in the US is much lower than it was 50 years ago, though the data is somewhat variable.
And the fatality rate per school shooting is actually trending down, not up as the news would have you believe.
This data indicates it is not guns that are driving these statistics, but something else.
--Edit: Source for this data is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_United_States
I counted the incidents manually, so there may be some small errors in counts.
just plain lack of values in the home...
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 08 2018 09:43:13 AM MST
Quote from: gandog56 on March 07 2018 05:41:45 PM MST
I blame a too permissive society where you can't hardly spank your kid for being bad any more without someone calling child protective services.
There are numerous studies that clearly show children who are subjected to corporal punishment have greater violent tendencies than children that are are disciplined via other means.
But, as a parent, you have to mean what you say, and say what you mean. You have to be consistent, respectful and attentive.
Quote from: gandog56 on March 07 2018 05:41:45 PM MST
All I know is there was no such thing as school shootings when I grew up.
Actually, there was, unless you are the oldest person on the planet by a couple of decades. But the rate has definitely gone up bunch in the last 20 years:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/ssrByDecade.png)
And the fatality rate in school shootings compared to population has increased as well:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/ssfrByDecade.png)
The mass shooting rates (>=5 fatalities) have correspondingly increased too:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/mssrByDecade.png)
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/mssfrByDecade.png)
But, here is the stat that I didn't expect once I had calculated the first four.
The fatality rate per school shooting is not really increasing much at all:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/sfrByDecade.png)
The news would have you believe that school shootings are on the rise because of "assault style weapons" and our "gun culture", and that shootings are more deadly today than ever before.
But the general data shows gun ownership rates in decline. In fact, households with guns in the US is much lower than it was 50 years ago, though the data is somewhat variable.
And the fatality rate per school shooting is actually trending down, not up as the news would have you believe.
This data indicates it is not guns that are driving these statistics, but something else.
--Edit: Source for this data is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_United_States
I counted the incidents manually, so there may be some small errors in counts.
As a practicing scientist, I would question these data strongly. All of these studies claiming the harm of corporal punishment (several of which I have read) have hardly been impartial, well controlled studies. Studies on topics such as this are incredibly susceptible to bias being introduced in the way they are run.
As for the school shooting data, what curated and all-inclusive database was cataloging school shootings in the 1800s? NONE. There is absolutely no way those data are real. School shootings in that graph start to track upwards in the mid-1900s....about the time one can believe accurate nationwide records are believable.
These school shooters are almost invariably marginalized kids seeking attention. And in the modern world, this is the ultimate way for a powerless loner to become nationally famous, and the media willingly gives it to them. As much as I am for free speech I think major media outlets should sign a pact never to publish the name or image of a mass shooter. This would defeat their motives.
QuoteAs much as I am for free speech I think major media outlets should sign a pact never to publish the name or image of a mass shooter. This would defeat their motives.
Funny you mentioned that. I thought that was a done deal?
Mental illness.......why else would any logically thinking person shoot and kill children.
Quote from: Ramjet on March 30 2018 06:36:17 PM MDT
Mental illness.......why else would any logically thinking person shoot and kill children.
To impress chicks? ::)
Seriously, no sane person would do this.
I look at it this way. When I was growing up, there were no such things a school shootings. But when I grew up, corporate punishment was not a BAD thing. If you were naughty, you got spanked, easy as that. Now if you whack your kid's butt, somebody is likely to call child protective service or something. But....time out doesn't teach a kid crap. Send him to their room? They'll just spend time on his cellphone, or computer, or play video games. It's no punishment at all. So now the kids just do not get a sense of what is right and wrong. And....school shootings are happening all the time. I almost see a direct correlation here.
"Let's hear ideas about what's REALLY behind school shootings????"
I like to think outside the Klein bottle, looking at larger causative factors, instead of narrowly focusing on inanimate objects that receive most of the attention.
I think that the main factor is social dislocation. Human society has rapidly become more complex and conflictual, and the development of the human central nervous system has not kept up with the rapid pace of this change.
More and more teens have no faith in the roles that society has to offer them.
Take a look at Aztec, Inca, Mayan empires, as well as ancient Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Spanish, French and British empires. There were almost no school shootings/stabbings then. Instead, these societies just simply suddenly collapsed.
School shootings are not just another idiosyncratic problem in the middle of an oh so nicely engineered society. Rather, school shootings are an indicator of the level of intrinsic dislocation and conflict in the society. The inanimate physical hand tools are not the causative agents of conflict.
Quote from: richbuff on June 20 2018 08:27:29 PM MDT
"Let's hear ideas about what's REALLY behind school shootings????"
I like to think outside the Klein bottle, looking at larger causative factors, instead of narrowly focusing on inanimate objects that receive most of the attention.
I think that the main factor is social dislocation. Human society has rapidly become more complex and conflictual, and the development of the human central nervous system has not kept up with the rapid pace of this change.
More and more teens have no faith in the roles that society has to offer them.
Take a look at Aztec, Inca, Mayan empires, as well as ancient Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Spanish, French and British empires. There were almost no school shootings/stabbings then. Instead, these societies just simply suddenly collapsed.
School shootings are not just another idiosyncratic problem in the middle of an oh so nicely engineered society. Rather, school shootings are an indicator of the level of intrinsic dislocation and conflict in the society. The inanimate physical hand tools are not the causative agents of conflict.
Yes, and which parent should sometimes not so gently guide younger males into proper roles? Fathers are absent or have failed in most every school shooter's life.
Several studies have shown that over 80% of student school shooting perpetrators come from homes where parents are divorced or alienated.
But...
Quote from: richbuff on June 20 2018 08:27:29 PM MDT
Human society has rapidly become more complex and conflictual, and the development of the human central nervous system has not kept up with the rapid pace of this change.
We jump to the conclusion that the parents "should have done a better job".
Perhaps they couldn't. Perhaps the parents had social-psychological defects that doomed their relationships.
I guess what I am saying is that it should be no surprise that people that are psychologically broken come from parents that are likewise psychologically broken.
And, even understanding that, what do we do? Can't very well remain free and yet start requiring a license to procreate based on mental stability.
Our first, best, hope is to create smaller social circles that have others who can fill the role when parents can't. Smaller class sizes and smaller schools will help this..
Quote from: Olgo on February 23 2018 08:20:02 PM MST
Here's another real reason. The security is really lax. What happened here:
https://www.ksat.com/news/mother-walks-into-south-san-hs-unseen-to-prove-districts-need-for-extra-security
Yeah, but when I was a young gandog, we didn't NEED security. Nobody did these crazy shootings. I still think it is the stupid ways they tell you to bring up your children. We're raising a nation of sissies who get all butthurt over nothing and break into daddy's gun cabinet to solve things.
I absolutely agree friend. When we were pups we had morals and we (as kids!) used to carry 22s and shotguns without anyone batting an eye.
Parents are not doing what parents are supposed to do. We took the spankings and the Bible out of schools.
Factor in the breakdown in basic societal pillars. Then add large dose of monkey see monkey do...
My thoughts, as a Christian, and follower of Christ are this . We live in a fallen world, sin and hate run rampant. This coupled with our broken mental health system, the lack of two parent households, as well as drug abuse play a huge part in this...just my two cents
Quote from: gandog56 on June 26 2018 02:19:26 PM MDT
Yeah, but when I was a young gandog, we didn't NEED security. Nobody did these crazy shootings. I still think it is the stupid ways they tell you to bring up your children. We're raising a nation of sissies who get all butthurt over nothing and break into daddy's gun cabinet to solve things.
This is definitely part of it! After working in public schools for over 30yrs, not as a teacher, I have some thoughts on this. Mainstreaming, no child left behind, and other let's include all the broken ones programs have almost eliminated the option of separating a kid like Nicolas Cruz from the regular students. Look at all the news stories. Every single person, from the resource officer to the hall monitors to the other students, teachers, etc, knew that kid was a whacko. Factor in an overzealous social worker mentality, the label "special needs" and absent parental responsibility or a parent in denial (think Sandy Hook) and there's your recipe for disaster. Lazy administrators trying to phony up successful stats don't help either.
Do the parents of some of these monsters deserve some of the blame? Absolutely! Admit there's something wrong with your kid and take steps accordingly. It's pretty obvious that the Sandy Hook kid should NEVER have had access to guns.
On the subject of parenting, actually knowing your kids would be helpful as well. I used to see armies of parents carting their over scheduled kids to various activities. The parents all stand around socializing with each other and patting themselves on the back for keeping their kids busy and "out of trouble," as if that's a substitute for actually doing something with them, themselves. Inputing your own values into your children is vastly more important than simply keeping them occupied and expecting coaches and strangers to do it for you.
Lastly, the phony self esteem that has been pervasive in public education for the last 25yrs has to go. I've watched teachers have elementary school kids chant, "I'm special! I feel good about myself!" three times each morning, for years. Sadly, when the world reveals its performance based self to them they are wholly unprepared. Yes, you may be special to Mom, Dad, and the Grandparents, but to the rest of us you are not. It's a feel good idea that only leads to feel bad for the kids.
I could continue, but this is starting to sound like a rant.
Quote from: Buckeye 50 on February 15 2018 06:41:19 PM MST
I think about this all the time since my wife is a middle school teacher here in Central Ohio. I have lived here my whole life.
I am starting to think the roots of this are in the moral decay of society and the family unit, COMBINED with just plain evil - right now, on this topic, the devil is winning.
What are your thoughts?
Pat
Same as yours.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: gandog56 on June 26 2018 02:19:26 PM MDT
Yeah, but when I was a young gandog, we didn't NEED security. Nobody did these crazy shootings. I still think it is the stupid ways they tell you to bring up your children. We're raising a nation of sissies who get all butthurt over nothing and break into daddy's gun cabinet to solve things.
I grew up in rural Indiana. Everyone who drove had a gun in their car, students included. That was school security!
Quote from: Graybeard on June 27 2018 08:00:05 AM MDT
It's pretty obvious that the Sandy Hook kid should NEVER have had access to guns.
I hate that Sandy Hook happened. Terrible tragedy. The Adam Lanza scenario illustrates why no amount of background checks or screenings is going to stop crazy people. He killed his
own mother to obtain a gun. If it hadn't been her, it would have been someone else. Or he may have turned to something truly horrific like a chemical attack.
Quote from: Graybeard on June 27 2018 08:00:05 AM MDT
The parents all stand around socializing with each other and patting themselves on the back for keeping their kids busy and "out of trouble," as if that's a substitute for actually doing something with them, themselves.
This. The soccer fields are packed on Saturday with parents who are afraid to have a "real" conversation with their kids. We don't do much sports. But we do lots of family games, drives, and just general time together. And we talk a lot about "real" things.
This. The soccer fields are packed on Saturday with parents who are afraid to have a "real" conversation with their kids. We don't do much sports. But we do lots of family games, drives, and just general time together. And we talk a lot about "real" things.
[/quote]
Good for you and your family sqlbullet! Actually knowing your kids, what they are really thinking, and what's going on in their lives is the key. Conversation about real topics is extremely important. Reminds me of a friend and former coworker who's twin 12yr old sons were very concerned about school shootings. We took them to the range, taught them gun safety, and let them shoot some of my guns.
After, we talked about things like following the active shooter plans, until the plan isn't working. Like using an escape window if someone is coming through the door. Moving during a reload, and fighting back were also discussed. This is the type of conversation too many parents choose not to have.
All six of my kids, ages 11-21, have their own AR-15, which they build from parts, and their own M1 Garand with CMP certificate. All of them now how to reload, though the younger ones still don't get to load their own ammo start to finish.
At age 18 they all get their CFP in our state, and their birthday gift from me is to pick a carry gun from the safe. Lost a High Power and a Glock 19 that way so far. :D
And, they know they can talk to us about anything. And they often do.
As it should be, and as it is with our two daughters21, and 24. Start them young, instill morels and other important things, and they will be given grace and wisdom to figure out the rest
Another issue that always bothered me during my career in public schools was the head in the sand attitude when it comes to guns. Teen pregnancy, drugs, bullying, and other problems were all addressed with cries for more education/counselors/programs, etc. Gun safety education is largely ignored, especially in urban schools. Suburban schools aren't much better. It sickens me that dollars can be thrown at the PC cause du jour, but not a nickel for a firearm safety program can found.
Quote from: Graybeard on June 29 2018 08:04:06 AM MDT
Another issue that always bothered me during my career in public schools was the head in the sand attitude when it comes to guns. Teen pregnancy, drugs, bullying, and other problems were all addressed with cries for more education/counselors/programs, etc. Gun safety education is largely ignored, especially in urban schools. Suburban schools aren't much better. It sickens me that dollars can be thrown at the PC cause du jour, but not a nickel for a firearm safety program can found.
Amen!
My second daughter, who is a senior this year, is working to get a high power rifle club started at her high school. Nothing in the rules prohibits one. And my kids are happy to let the club members borrow their Garands or AR's for practice and competition.
once thing i think is no name of shooter ever,it just makes other try to break his kills.if they would take them out as soon as it happens,give shooter to parents to do what the want to do with them.the news media blows some of it out .always go auto weapons etc.gun control.vegas shooter good example,some of pic were so fake,etc.was a video when it was happening a person was following a guy with a auto in crowd shooting,didn;t take long for this video to disapear.
All I can say is "no child left behind", is dragging down bright students because class has to slow down for the idiots that should have nevger passed third or fouth grade.
True story, when I was in high school I got extra credit in English for teaching other high school students how to frikking read. Third grade primer schoolbooks, I'm talking Dick And Jane, they could NOT read them, yet they are in 9th and 10th grade.