Sometimes engineers stick to one theory or one mechanism simply because it works, sort of. They beef up parts here and there to fix breakages or weak points and generally ignore those who call for a redesign.
Case in point, the 10mm AUTO. Perhaps I should say, the pistols designed to shoot 10mm AUTO
The design of the gun and the slotted barrel lug were originally designed for the 45 ACP (See the Book "The Heir Apparent" ) until Jeff Cooper insisted on the 10mm cartridge. The cartridge was designed by Dornas and Dixon but accidentally "hot-rodded" twice, the original specs looking a lot like the 40 S&W than the 10mm Norma loading.
When the weapon (The Bren Ten) finally made it out the door, the die was cast. Colt decided it could make a 10mm as well and the rest was history. Most guns use the weak swing link of the 1911 to lower the barrel, thus dwell time (the time the barrel is locked together) is narrow and dependent on the mass of the slide to adjust for different loads. The 10mm Bren Ten was first designed as a 45 and then s t r e t c h e d to fit, even to the point of having both 45 ACP and 10mm share the same magazines.
This error has been compounded (yes even in the EAA Witness) for every design of 10mm gun. Guns break or have a short life. Some gun makers will not make a government sized 10mm anymore due to functionality and parts life concerns, insisting on the 6 inch hogleg. Some will not make Commander sized 10mm's for the same reason. Some, like EAA, simply replace broken slides, broken barrels, broken slide pins
battered frames because it is easier than a redesign. Even the Glock 20, (Cursed be upon its name) shows this temperament with the notorious "Glock Smiles" and various Kaboom stories. The large frame Glock was 45 first and them S t r e t c h e d to make it work. The result was a good .45 gun and an OK 10mm
All recommend a diet of salad shooting, latte sipping loads rather than the meat eaters Underwood and others put out.
All Except the New King
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Did I miss what "the new king"...is?
And now for the rest of the story ....
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Given the ever increasing popularity and number of new 10mm offerings (from 1911s, to the P220, to the Grand Power, and more Tanfoglios), there is more and more info on what is, and how well things are, holding up. Also to correct, while a few batches of EAAs didn't fair so well, other higher end Tanfoglios have been around for awhile and seem be be holding up fine.
Long Live the King!!
The Coonan pistol is a fresh redesign of their .357 magnum using a Colt type frame and many compatible parts.
However, it is a balls to the wall MONSTER when it comes to lock up and dwell time, because the Coonan locking system was originally designed for the .357 Magnum. They designed their new weapon, all ready with a cult following, to take the 10mm. In effect they :o Downloaded :o their weapon to accommodate the 10mm! The factory literature challenges you to not just use pussycat loads and "watch your recoil springs" but to use full power loads as much as you want. The company brags that shooting the Coonan is a mind changing experience and revels in the basketball sized fireballs its weapons throw.
Yes, I have ordered one as my carry weapon. Full Range report and disassembly and test review as soon as I can get my hands on her.
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Oh no. Coonan is the King? The NutNFancy video showed it's true colors in short order. They were having a real hard time with it running right!
Quote from: GoldBead on January 25 2018 09:19:23 PM MST
Long Live the King!!
The Coonan pistol is a fresh redesign of their .357 magnum using a Colt type frame and many compatible parts.
However, it is a balls to the wall MONSTER when it comes to lock up and dwell time, because the Coonan locking system was originally designed for the .357 Magnum. They designed their new weapon, all ready with a cult following, to take the 10mm. In effect they :o Downloaded :o their weapon to accommodate the 10mm! The factory literature challenges you to not just use pussycat loads and "watch your recoil springs" but to use full power loads as much as you want. The company brags that shooting the Coonan is a mind changing experience and revels in the basketball sized fireballs its weapons throw.
Yes, I have ordered one as my carry weapon. Full Range report and disassembly and test review as soon as I can get my hands on her.
Well this should be interesting. Are you having a carry holster custome made? If so where the heck did you find the molds? What position are you planning on carrying? What are the full loads you're planning on carrying?
You don't have to wait until it arrives to start the review, set the table.
I will just leave this here
Glock 20 came before and 21 and the gun was originally designed for 10mm. Smiles are the result of loose tolerance for reliability and the general European lack of concern about reloadable brass. You should see what full power 308 looks like out of my CETME.
I and several others here will stand up our Witness Elite guns against about any full house 10mm round you want, and as many as you want. They just run.
And I gotta say, my Para P16-40/10mm has seen at least 5K rounds and is running strong. My Delta Elite, sold long ago also ate a good many rounds with no ill effect. And my Ruger SR1911 is through nearly 1000 rounds and looks brand new still.
I personally reject the premise that any of these guns won't handle 10mm Auto just fine. Such opinions are merely FUD and scare off potential adopters. Buy a quality firearm and feed it in spec ammo and it will last longer than most of us will.
My 2¢.
during the '80s one of the U.S. Customs Agents that often boarded my boat carried a Coonan ,357. I now wonder how reliable his was. :o I would imagine that it functioned properly or he wouldn't carry it in the line of duty but you never know.
The 10mm looks to be like a standard 1911 except for the barrel design. I saw a video of the 10mm running fine and that makes sense. I would rather have a full length guide rod and I don't know what you gain spending $1500 on this one versus a $700 Ruger 1911.
Coonan has experienced frames cracking also, hot cartridges are going to prematurely wear & break guns.
Smart that Coonan started to make the 10mm. A lot of folks who picked up the 357 model wanted it to feel like a 1911, which of course it doesn't, and couldn't warm up to it. I had the 357 version. The grip is certainly longer but not uncomfortably so. Mine was totally reliable and very accurate. There are many more positive reviews than negative i think. If the 10mm version functions as well (frankly should work better) Coonan will have another winner.
Whether you think it is King or not is subjective, but just good to see another 10mm platform. Maybe they will make a compact version which is bound to be very popular and fill that niche so many are looking for.
There is an aftermarket barrel in that Glock.
Usually there are bad reloads / loads or alterations to the gun when this happens.
Well as with any firearms, no two are the same...some are modified by the end users. The main thing is that we as 10mm enthusiast need to fully understand that the 10mm is a very potent round as compared to the lower power 45ACP.
(In the case of the .45 ACP, the new standard cartridge pressure is 21,000 psi (140 MPa) and the SAAMI .45 ACP +P standard is 23,000 psi (160 MPa).
Seeing that the 10mm has a SAAMI pressure of 37,500 psi with even higher proof pressures, we do see the companies like UW, BB, DT, SF, etc. pushing the limits of the brass in some of their loadings. The way that some firearms handle these loads has shown that they are on the upper end of the performance levels and pressure values... UW swears their ammo are inside the SAAMI pressure value.
Yet we have seen many bulged and/or smiled cases and even popped primers. Also some firearms have been K-Boomed with ammo the end user purchased.
My best advice is for people to start their adventure off using Big name Ammo makers ammo such as Remington, Federal, Colt, etc.
That will give the firearm a chance to show how it is working...
Many of us are experienced handloaders, and can put together our own stuff studying the results as it relates to our own firearm setups.
Detective Harry Callahan said it best; "A man's got to know his limitations!"
And with all of above, for same $, I'd buy 3 glock 20s before a Coocan
In my experience, they hold up just fine and it' the same bullet.
So, the real king comes into play in this discussion...Physics.
The same physics that allow a 45 ACP +P to get to 950 fps and 460 lb feet of energy with a 230 grain JHP at .160 sectional density allow the 10mm to do the same thing.
To keep the sectional density the same in the smaller bullet, the weight falls back to 180 grain JHP, velocity goes up to 1070, but pressure is right around 23,000 psi and energy is 460 lb feet.
Physics gives no one a free lunch. But by the same token, it treats everyone fairly. Given a pressure, and a straightwall case, you can accurately predict that different diameter bullets will deliver about the same energy at the same sectional density levels.
If you are (un-necessarily) worried about full power 10mm loads in your favorite guns, download except when you need it. Like shooting 38's in your 357. But, unlike some of the small 357's that shoot apart in short order if subjected to a steady diet of full power loads, all the reputable 10mm makers have guns that handle the power just fine.
The 1911 is often the target of allusions that it won't take the stress. Others point to cartridges like the 38 Super as an example of a high pressure cartridge that works just fine. Both 45 ACP +P and 38 Super place about 3,600 lbs of force on the slide during firing. This occurs at peak pressure while the barrel and slide are locked together*.
The 10mm does ramp this up, to about 4,700 lbs. That is an increase of about 33%. But, that force is exerted through about .145 sq in of slide area around the ejection port. Carry the 9 and you get about 32,500 PSI of force being applied actual steel in the slide. 4140 ordnance steel has a yield strength of 60,000 psi. 416R Stainless is lower at 40,000 psi fully annealed. Depending on the hardening process used it can come close to ordnance steel. I assumed a conservative 50,000 PSI yield, though I suspect it is hardened more than that by most manufacturers.
Since this is yield strength in steel, we just have to worry about not exceeding the value. So how hot would we have to get before our slide might be damaged? About 58,000 PSI and a stainless slide might start to stretch if it were fully an. Carbon steel slides are fine up to loads of nearly 70,000 PSI. A 10mm proof load max's out at 54,000 PSI. A steady diet of proof loads in your Ruger SR1911 might be a not great idea, but it will handle full power ammo fine.
What about fatigue? Fatigue is pretty linear. Your 10mm has about 1/3 less slide life than a 45 acp 1911. Since Colt figured out slide hardening during WWII a properly made slide is good for 100,000 rounds in 45 ACP. So, figure your Ruger, Delta Elite, Kimber, Dan Wesson or any other 1911 will run about 60,000 rounds before you have to worry about the slide. That represents an ammo cost of about $8,000, compared to about $500 for a new slide, barrel and fitting work.
*About frame battering. A typical 1911 slide weighs about 14 oz and hits about 25 ft/second velocity in 45 ACP. This works about to about 60 lbs of force on the slide when it stops at the back of the gun, assuming your can hold it like a vice that barely moves. The more you move, the lower that number. 10mm is gonna increase that by about 30% as a result of the higher pressure impulse. That puts us at a max of 80 lbs, again assuming you have a vice like grip. For most of us mortals that value will be lower. Compared to the 4,700 lbs of force the slide contained at peak pressure, hitting the frame is nothing. Like literally less than 2% as much force.
The role of the recoil spring is to provide the needed force to propel the slide back forward, pick up a new round and get the slide into battery ready to shoot. Along with that in the 10mm we use it to dump some slide velocity to just slow things down a bit. This is NOT to mitigate any force. It is to give other slower moving assemblies time to do their job (looking at you magazine and magazine spring). I often find that +10% magazine springs doe more for 10mm reliability than a a 24 lb recoil spring. The recoil spring is just trying to slow the slide down enough that the magazine spring can get the next round presented and ready to load. Adding some oomph to the mag spring does the same thing by increasing the speed that round gets into place.
I haven't handled nor do I know any of the specs of the new Coonan. But I do know the 1911 is plenty strong enough for the 10mm.
--Edit...I measured my Witness. There is less slide height in the witness, but the slide walls are a good bit thicker than a 1911 slide. Result in about the same amount of steel in cross section...Maybe a bit more.
Following for the physics discussion.
Yea... That was a scientific piece 8)
Just don't check my math too close or show it to my old physics professors. I am sure they would shred me.
I got to thinking this morning more about this, and realized I forgot to account for the "cork in the bottle".
The brass case walls expand under pressure. This does two things. First, it seals the breech. Second, it locks the brass in place like a cork in the bottle. Cartridge brass has a yield strength of between 11,000 psi fully annealed and about 65,000 psi fully work hardened. The heads of Starline brass tend to be on the "softer" side, so figure about 15-20K psi. Up to that pressure, the breech is sealed just by the case head. Above that, the case head tries to stretch, putting stress on the barrel/slide interfaces.
This means we can deduct about 10-15K psi, maybe a bit more, from what actually reaches the slide.
That looks like a Glock that blew up. You know what they say about Glocks....
My Colt Delta Elite has at least 500 rounds through it an is hammering fine. I would call that the king. Although I do like this Tanfolio, Witness Elite Match. Much more capacity and I can hammer them faster down range ( weighs a lot).
That Glock that blew up looks like it had an aftermarket barrel installed too.
Quote from: Intercooler on January 26 2018 02:04:06 PM MST
I will just leave this here
I shot one of those at The Range in Austin a few months ago. No issues at all with it shooting S&B 357 loads. I shot a 50 round box and did not have one malfunction. Mine you it's a rental gun there but The Range takes good care of their stock/rentals. If was a ton of fun to shoot and I'd do it again.
If it was built for 357 Magnum the dimensions line up that it could be chambered for 10mm magnum. Is this correct, at least in theory? From the case length and cartridge length for both cartridges it seems viable...
Coonan apparently briefly made a 41 mag version so a 10mm mag may not be out of the question. However, given how briefly the 41 version was around, suspect the gun was not up to the challenge.
(http://kitsunesden.xyz/Firearms/Auto-Pistols/Coonan_41.jpg)
Dang.... I'd be saving my pennies for a 10mm magnum or 41 magnum version. I may give them a call and see if they'll be honest about what caused them to stop offering the 41 magnum version.
Quote from: Scarlett Pistol on January 30 2018 12:21:14 PM MST
Dang.... I'd be saving my pennies for a 10mm magnum or 41 magnum version. I may give them a call and see if they'll be honest about what caused them to stop offering the 41 magnum version.
I'd be curious to see what they say. Suspect you would need a bigger platform than the one used for the 357 in order to use the 10mm mag to its full potential but I really have no idea.
Incidentally I called them when I was trying to fine tune mine to shoot some standard power 38 specials. Super friendly and helpful. They patched me right though to one of the head techs (Ray, if I recall) and he spent 30 mins giving me the low down on everything. Hard not to love a company that offers a cool product and backs it up with solid friendly service and support.
You are right about that. I had some questions about my GP40 and called Eagle Imports. A woman answered the phone and I mistakely thought 'Oh boy'.
She told me they were not importing the front sight I was looking for but a CZ-75 would work for me. And it did.
Pretty sure my sig 220 is a king also. I have put 600+ rounds thru it and not one malfunction of any kind. Over 2/3 of these have been stout handloads of various gr bullets. It may not hold as many rounds as some and be heavy but it rules in my opinion. ;D
Quote from: THUNDERMAN on February 05 2018 07:36:37 PM MST
Pretty sure my sig 220 is a king also. I have put 600+ rounds thru it and not one malfunction of any kind. Over 2/3 of these have been stout handloads of various gr bullets. It may not hold as many rounds as some and be heavy but it rules in my opinion. ;D
Yes, that duplicates my experience, it is a great 10mm.
Quote from: sqlbullet on January 26 2018 09:47:12 PM MST
Glock 20 came before and 21 and the gun was originally designed for 10mm. Smiles are the result of loose tolerance for reliability and the general European lack of concern about reloadable brass. You should see what full power 308 looks like out of my CETME.
I and several others here will stand up our Witness Elite guns against about any full house 10mm round you want, and as many as you want. They just run.
And I gotta say, my Para P16-40/10mm has seen at least 5K rounds and is running strong. My Delta Elite, sold long ago also ate a good many rounds with no ill effect. And my Ruger SR1911 is through nearly 1000 rounds and looks brand new still.
I personally reject the premise that any of these guns won't handle 10mm Auto just fine. Such opinions are merely FUD and scare off potential adopters. Buy a quality firearm and feed it in spec ammo and it will last longer than most of us will.
My 2¢.
Exactly...
I kinda feel someone is missing something... These guns, I'll push that and say none of these guns would likely have anything happen to them on factory ammo. Maybe a steady diet of some of the boutique ammo like Cor bond, Underwood, Grizzly and the like...
I have shot untold numbers there three different Glock 10's. Only guns to exhibit smiles where orig Delta Elite and my Mech Tech. BUT the MT is a blow back non locking so some powders are not as friendly its not really a support this as the barrel actually has very good support. I stopped shooting anything even warm in my Deltas twenty years ago!
I have three different barrel makers aftermarket barrels for my Glocks and they all offer a tighter chamber, some have a little better support, but as I have said I haven't had smiles. I have some stout loadings, but I admittedly stop before some loaders.
This to me rings more of a anti Glock post than a pro Coonan. Thats fine, but never liked or agreed with running one down in an attempt to build upon another.
CW
I have to say I held a coonan 357 at the gun show Saturday. It's was without a doubt the single sloppiest 1911 frame to slide fit I have ever seen. And it was brand new.
My $500 Rock island looks like it was fitted by nighthawk compared to that coonan.
That has put a bad taste in my mouth for anything coonan. I have zero desire to own one now. My M&P 45C has less slop and play in it and it has 30k+ rounds through it.
So I left the gun show with a sphinx sdp that just exudes quality craftsmanship.
In fairness, I find recent RIA stuff to be really nicely fit. My RIA is definitely tighter than my Ruger SR1911.
I own a Coonan MOT10, and the fit, finish and overall appearance of the pistol are top notch. However, I did purchase a 22 lb spring (designed for the 357 Classic) to replace the stock 17 lb one that came with the pistol. The stronger spring definitely reduces the slide wear when shooting heavy loads, and so far, I've experienced only a single malfunction.