You're facing a 300 lb man who is at least 15" thick through the chest aiming a gun at you so his arms will catch the rounds first.
In my situation, with a Glock 29,what would you carry? I was trusting the Underwood 200 XTP until I seen the Chopping Block video where they failed to expand at all. Justin at Underwood said the 200 Nosler is better from the 3.77 barrel. I'm still carrying my 175 Critical Duty. 1070-1080 fps from a G29. Which puts performance dead on with a Glock 22,which is down right impressive. Hornady using the Interlok design on the FTX is genius. There isn't a better barrier basher on the market (screw those snake oil xtreme defenders etc).
I want the 200 GD loaded to Norma's 1200 fps or I'm going back to the Underwood Delta Elite load.
Thoughts on this are always good.
I'm just a Buffalo Bore 155 lover :-*
Quote from: Intercooler on December 09 2017 08:51:23 PM MST
I'm just a Buffalo Bore 155 lover :-*
+1 on the Buffalor Bore 155 Tac-Xp..... It's the flavor tucked into the chamber & magazine of my G-20 right this moment.
I'd be very comfortable with Underwood's 180gr XTP in your G-29
The Critical Duty 175gr is a fine choice as well as old Winchester 170gr Silver Tips IMHO.
If you prefer the heavier projectiles, think Underwood 200gr Nosler suggestion was solid advice.
Although you dismiss the extreme defender out of hand. In a world where threats exemplified by Sutherland Springs exist (monkey see, monkey do mentality); I find myself contemplating and reflecting on a projectile with a chance of reaching vitals of body armored assailant.
If you have the presence of mine aim above or below his arms, surely a double tap to the groin will provide some measure of discouragement.
With all the choices we have for self defense I think one would be hard pressed to find the ideal round in your scenario above, there are many variables to consider. Will the first rounds shatter bones in his arm? Will your initial rounds find the target due to your adrenaline dump? Will your rounds miss bone and pass through flesh and muscle only?
I have read many of your past threads regarding self defense with great interest since I just acquired a 29 gen 3 so it will be interesting to see the answers you get. I picked up 2 boxes of Legend 155 grain that appears to be loaded with Barnes Tac-XP bullets. If they expand I'm sure it will be a bone shattering round. I'm anxious to see the responses you get.
Wonder how close the Buffalo Bore is to the legend round since they use the same bullet?
Nick
Their is a good bit of velocity difference between the two. I don't know if the shorter barrel 29 would suffer expansion problems with Legend or not. That bullet seems to do it's thing regardless!
Still carrying Win STips.... 175gr. in G20
Are they the fastest/most flbs, no but it's a warm+ round and allows 2nd and 3rd hits in quick time.
If I do decide to shoot, I can prob say it's not going to be just one...muscle memory will likely take over... was trained to make the bad guy STOP... and we practiced doubles taps and one head shot
What are everyone's thoughts on the Underwood gold dot loads ? The 165 grain appears to hold together better than the 180 grain.
The G29 handicaps any ammo you shoot in it. I'd carry what I absolutely trusted to function, was most accurate and a heavy enough bullet to penetrate through a torso. In that order of importance a 10mm is already a big bore, expansion is just fruit topping.
I believe Tommac has the right idea, but Pat Rogers said it best "Shoot till the target changes shape or catches fire".
Quote from: 01deuce on December 10 2017 05:32:32 PM MST
What are everyone's thoughts on the Underwood gold dot loads ? The 165 grain appears to hold together better than the 180 grain.
Underwood 165gr Gold Dot is a pretty popular choice if you train to handle recoil for accurate follow up shots. Easy to find postings here and other places praising the virtues of this round. It's gonna hit damn hard, expand to .70 to .90 and penetrate 12"to 14" in authentic FBI grade ballistics gel. Not my first choice for the woods where deeepp penetration is most desired but against 2 legged predators; it's probably very good medicine IMO.
I like 135/150-5 in the 40's and 165/75/80 in the 10MM defensibly.
All the guys Buffalo Bore, Underwood, Cor-Bon & now Lehigh Defense make appropriate ammo W/good bullets. Just gotta buy each and try it... Dont know any short cuts.
I do really like Cor-Bon 150g in the 40. Clocks over 1100 from my 4" G23. Maybe there is a 10 version?
CW
Don't know what I would carry in a Glock since I don't have one, But I do carry Win 175gr Silver tips in both my Colt Delta Elite and my Kimber. Like someone mentioned, there not the fastest or the most powerful 10mm load but for 2 legged threats they should work just fine.
And now that its winter time in WI I put my 9mm Shield away till Summer time,and carry a full size 1911, and if I am going to carry a full size 1911 it's going to be a 10mm.
In my G29, Gen 4 It's UW 165gr Gold Dot.
I run 180 grain Gold Dots in both my G20 & G29.
At the velocities they run from underwood they are overdriven a little in the G20 and just right in the G29.
The Critical Duty is a great round but I'd be concerned at under 1200 fps about the expansion reliability.
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10mm, for social work... I'd be carrying 150 grain Nosler bullets if there is a factory load using them... If not, then whatever 150-155 grain load I could find.
I use a handload with the 150 Nosler at a little over 1,500 fps in my G40 on the nightstand.
Matching the sectional density and velocity of the old 125 grain 357 mag loads is the goal.
I do it by carrying a 357 Sig... Nothing against the 10mm, I love it in the field, but in town I prefer the lighter, smaller, higher capacity Glock 32.
I switch between the Hornady Custom 155gr xtp and Underwood 200gr xtp.
The Hornady 155gr is extremely accurate and run around 1250 fps from the G29 from what I gather. They make a big bang but have light felt recoil which makes follow-up shots easy. Personally, I think these will handle any two leg targets.
The Underwood 200gr xtp is also very accurate and IMO easy to control because there is less muzzle flip than the lighter grain loads. I was also concerned with expansion after seeing a few videos but while out last month I shot an old pumpkin (little soft) with the UW 200gr xtp and there was great expansion and energy dump. It was lifted off the table and pushed back about a foot before falling on the ground. Entrance hole was .400 but the exit was about 2+ inches. I typically carry these in my spare mags in case the 155's need help.
I think the only reason I don't carry the 200gr rounds exclusively is because they make the gun noticably more heavy on the belt. I find it more comfortable to carry loaded with 155gr.
I am a fan of Lehigh defense Exteme defender low recoil but very effective ammo. Low recoil helps with follow up and accuracy.
https://www.lehighdefense.com/products/10mm-auto-115gr-xtreme-defense-ammunition?variant=5403093508 (https://www.lehighdefense.com/products/10mm-auto-115gr-xtreme-defense-ammunition?variant=5403093508)
Anyone chrono the Underwood 135 HP from a G29? I'm thinking I may use these for home defense as they should be pretty explosive and not penetrate my whole house if I miss or once they go through a bad guy.
I wouldn't recommend using those lightweight 30-year-old technology jhp's that weren't even designed for defense when they were made, no matter what they chrono at. "Explosive" is not an actual wounding mechanism. If there is a chance your round will strike an unintended target behind a wall in your house - don't shoot. Are you going to pause and analyze..."hmm my pregnant wife is right behind that wall, so if the bullet goes through the wall it may strike her, but since I am using subpar boutique ammo it might not penetrate the wall, so I shalll take this shot because I am OK with less likelihood of shooting her, even though there is still a chance of shooting her regardless" ...You either don't shoot no matter what Ammo you have if there is a risk like that, or acknowledge if you are in such a dire situation that your response is to shoot someone you will need Ammo with the greatest potential for incapacitation without compromise.
If for some other reason you prefer lightweight bullets get Barnes rounds.
Quote from: Ramjet on December 20 2017 07:16:55 PM MST
I am a fan of Lehigh defense Exteme defender low recoil but very effective ammo. Low recoil helps with follow up and accuracy.
https://www.lehighdefense.com/products/10mm-auto-115gr-xtreme-defense-ammunition?variant=5403093508 (https://www.lehighdefense.com/products/10mm-auto-115gr-xtreme-defense-ammunition?variant=5403093508)
No... I have no idea what the best carry ammo is. So many choices and everything is the best thing since sliced bread according to some "expert". However... the testing I have seen with the Extreme Defender bullet has been very impressive. If it is reliable in your gun (costs a small fortune to adequately test for reliability/accuracy) then I don't think you can go far wrong. The whole issue with penetration is you don't know how much you will need ahead of time considering all the possibilities of bad guy size/angle/mental state and collateral damage. So you get what appears to suit your particular needs as well as possible. Then train& practice, train & practice, rinse and repeat.
Tommac would you carry the 180gr Gold Dot at 1240 over the Winchester Silver Tips.
Underwood 180gr GD .. For my Glock 29
Um . . . .y'all are carrying a 10mm for self-defense?
If I carried a 10 for self defense, I'd load it down to about 180 grains at 1050 fps, no more. All the extra velocity gets you is more muzzle flip, and slower shooting.
My .45s are my range toys. My new 10 is a cooler range toy.
On the streets of the Big City, I carry a nine.
Was thinking about Silver Tips also
The 175 Grain Silvertips don't look bad at all for the G20
Muzzle Velocity 1290 Feet Per Second
Muzzle Energy 649 Foot Pounds
Quote from: Univibe on June 04 2018 08:05:25 PM MDT
Um . . . .y'all are carrying a 10mm for self-defense?
If I carried a 10 for self defense, I'd load it down to about 180 grains at 1050 fps, no more. All the extra velocity gets you is more muzzle flip, and slower shooting.
My .45s are my range toys. My new 10 is a cooler range toy.
On the streets of the Big City, I carry a nine.
So you prefer to carry a 40 S&W. No problem with that, cheers carry on.
Welcome to the forum. A catalog search here will reveal many stimulating
discussions on the merits of carrying 10mm ammo loaded to FBI lite levels
(40 short & weak) or closer to original Norma levels.
Different strokes for different folks.
Quote from: sgtbones on February 18 2018 04:51:24 PM MST
Tommac would you carry the 180gr Gold Dot at 1240 over the Winchester Silver Tips.
Yes, I still carry the Win Silvertips... I practice with them at least 6x per year and know where they hit
As compared to the 180 gold dots above, there's prob not much diff but I don't practice with them.... my reloads I've use copy the Silvertips ( tho they are 180grain) the shot placement is very similar at the same range.
I stick with Stips cause they as mentioned, are not on the high end, but still enough power and allows me multi good hits.
Quote from: Kenk on June 05 2018 04:07:27 AM MDT
The 175 Grain Silvertips don't look bad at all for the G20
Muzzle Velocity 1290 Feet Per Second
Muzzle Energy 649 Foot Pounds
The newer STips are not as hot as the older... they have lowered the speed...more like 1175fps-1200fps in the G20 barrel ... YMMV. For me it's multi hits that count.
As a PS to above.... been finding it harder to get enough Win STs lately ..... been using most of my stocked up ammo.
For a change over to newer/easier to get, I started using Sigs 10mm hollow point V-crown. It hits in a diff place than the Silver Tips, but that's just practice
Midway must be using the original FPS then
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900297693/winchester-super-x-ammunition-10mm-auto-175-grain-silvertip-hollow-point
They might be spec'ed at that speed.... But IIRC, that was with a 5.5" test barrel. ( not the 4.6 in the G20 )
In the G20 stock I say a max of 1200 if your lucky but more like high 1175
Still a good carry rd, don't know that one of my favorites, Underwood's 155gr at 1,500 FPS would be so great, over penetration could certainly be a possibility
Sample velocities should have been obtained in a SAAMI spec test barrel. These are documented in ANSI/SAAMI Z299.3 American National Standard Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Pistol and Revolver Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers. My copy is last updated 2015, but I downloaded it last September. The 10mm spec barrel listed there was 5.000" ± .010"
These specs also require a minimum spec chamber and grooves, both of which raise pressures and velocity. In general such barrels are locked in a fixture that does not recoil, which also can impact velocity.
Thanks sqlbullet
Keep in mind I said "should have been", not were. Who knows where some makers get their velocity numbers. :P
I carry Underwood 165 gr in both my 20 and 29.
For sure the 165 bonded is awesome too, nice energy
BALLISTICS INFORMATION
Muzzle Velocity: 1400 fps
Muzzle Energy: 718 ft lbs
I carry either the Hornady 155 Gr XTP Rounds or the Underwood 180 gr Delta Elites, or the 180 gr Gold Dots in my Gen 4 G29. All 3 of these are quite sufficient, if I do my part. I find the Hornady rounds to be very accurate and a bit easier on the follow-up, so I may settle on those, even though they are a little less powerful than the UW offerings, they should be more than good for self defense use. This thread has made me think more about selecting a "definitive" SD round, which means I need to get to the range ASAP to do some shooting/testing/evaluation. Oh darn, I have to go shooting. Darn the luck...I'd much rather stay home and do yard work...
Ordered up some UW 165gr Bonded HP's until the 175gr Silver tips are available again. Gotta love that Underwood ammo : )
So explain to me why something like a Double Tap 230 grain 10mm wouldn't be a great penetration round on a big dude ?
I've shot wild boar with it and it demolishes bone.
Thoughts ? Expansion issues ? FPS issues ?
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It would be a great penetration round.
But, great penetration and great personal defense are not synonyms.
Double Tap makes a 10mm 230gr hardcast as well as a 239gr "equalizer" (135gr jhp & 95gr ball).
Florida, to illustrate the answer to your question. The 230gr hardcast will absolutely penetrate approximately 5' or more in ballistics gel where most defensive ammunition is designed to cause wider wound channel and only penetrate 12" to 18" in ballistics gel. Gel obviously does not equate to bad guys or game animals but it is a standard media to compare penetration. The heavy hardcast is definitely going to smash bone (if bone is struck directly) and penetrate through and through in a defensive situation, then keep on trucking the rest of the way through your house, car, building, etc. In the case of 10mm, it's definitely going to produce a .40 hole through the bad guy and 6 more of his buddies if they're nice enough to line up in a straight line for you. Massive penetration is great in a woods carry or hunting application. Self defense ammo like jhp have very different design objectives centering on stopping, (disabling the BG) the threat in the fastest possible way.
Hope that helps some.
And on through the neighbors frig
175g Silvertip for urban, 200g underwood xtp or 180 fed trophy match (1290fps)
You guys are truly some of the best minds I've encountered on the net concerning 10MM ammo.
I switched my carry in the woods from a Colt Officers .45 to a Colt Delta Elite from non stop nagging how better a .45 was than a 10. After viewing some gel tests and such on Utube from people such as you all in here, I laid down the $1000 and bought the Delta.
Now performance ? I don't shoot humans for a side hobby or a job. I carry mainly to stop a bear [emoji199], alligator [emoji246] or boar [emoji203] from attacking while bow hunting.
Here's my real life experience. Encountered a pack of 200 pound pigs while riding the atv back to camp. Picked one out, shot it kinda Texas heart shot 1st shot, slowed it down immensely from the pack, moved around and tapped one into the neck. Dead. My .45 never did such quick work. Bullet was a Hornady Critical defense 165 hollow point. Expansion was emmense and controlled with no defragmentation seen. Was in shock actually because I always was a heavy bullet lover.
Soon came in my ordered Double Tap 230 hard ball ammo. Shot 2 other pigs with these. Shocked to say, results didn't seem to be as good !!! You'd think those 230's would crush a pig. I'm thinking not enough expansion ? I never recovered a bullet to see. So I'm not sure ? I still am using the Double Tap 230's because I feel bone is bigger on a bear [emoji199] than a pig.
My question is, what's up with expansion on the 230 grain Double Tap ? I think I might be "over bulleted". Too much bullet for the bone size of a big pig ? Possible ? I might be better off using a Federal Hydra shok? Those Hornady rounds, I tell ya, worked amazing. I'm going to go back and see if that was just a fluke and maybe better shooting ?
If y'all can recommend any testing on 10mm rounds for self defense and animals I'd be happy for your help.
Everglades Swamp Hunter thanks you.
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Quote from: Rojo27 on November 28 2018 06:50:01 AM MST
Double Tap makes a 10mm 230gr hardcast as well as a 239gr "equalizer" (135gr jhp & 95gr ball).
Florida, to illustrate the answer to your question. The 230gr hardcast will absolutely penetrate approximately 5' or more in ballistics gel where most defensive ammunition is designed to cause wider wound channel and only penetrate 12" to 18" in ballistics gel. Gel obviously does not equate to bad guys or game animals but it is a standard media to compare penetration. The heavy hardcast is definitely going to smash bone (if bone is struck directly) and penetrate through and through in a defensive situation, then keep on trucking the rest of the way through your house, car, building, etc. In the case of 10mm, it's definitely going to produce a .40 hole through the bad guy and 6 more of his buddies if they're nice enough to line up in a straight line for you. Massive penetration is great in a woods carry or hunting application. Self defense ammo like jhp have very different design objectives centering on stopping, (disabling the BG) the threat in the fastest possible way.
Hope that helps some.
You're fricking amazing !
I get it. Sometimes too much penetration is over kill. You'd rather open up a bigger hole, and penetrate enough instead of killing your neighbor 3 apartments down. Lol [emoji38]. I get it because that's why I bought an AR10 and put 168 grain full metal jacket ammo in it. To shoot the bad guy in the next room of my home THRU the dry wall. Lol
So I think I'm over "bulleted" for most of my needs. Gotta find that sweet spot of expansion and penetration. People are different than animals and animals vary from other animals. Your gel theory is spot on. It's just a result you can visualize, which I do value. They do place bone and fur in front, but still gel is tougher than guts I'd think. Those wound channels gel shows is amazing how the funnel opens up as the bullet expands.
Again, thank you from a person who doesn't know the finer details of these things.
You rock !
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