I'll start with I had an extra 6" g20 9mm sitting around with no purpose as well as a bunch of SPP 45 acp brass. I got to thinking... I remembered the articles back in the late 90s about the 38 casull and the speeds they were getting which were impressive at the time (124gr at 1800 with h110). I figured I could possibly make this a reality so I contacted my friend who does some smith work and he believed it could be done. The goal was to recut the 9mm chamber to a 38/45 add a comp and run it in my g21 longlslide. This will be loaded to 38 casull specs, not the old 38/45 specs.
I looked on ebay and found a like new 38/45acp die set for sale that I won for about half price over a new set from rcbs. Then after I received the dies I "tried" forming acp brass in a single stage but that was a bit far fetched. The forming die from rcbs was also a pricey piece but looking at pics the form die resulted in something very close to the 400 corbon. So i grabbed a lee 400 corbon dies set for $30 and bingo I have the right combo for good looking brass!
I made a few dummies up with the heaviest bullet I planned on using and sent the barrel and slide assembly off to get chambered. Comparing the case capacity to the 9x25 Dillon the 38/45 case held about 1.5g more of 300mp when filled to the top. Should make for some good numbers and that big sharp shoulder should help with getting the slow powders burning (Its like a WSM pistol round). The barrel has been chambered and has great case support right up to the extractor groove.
So far the preliminary tests have resulted in a 125gr xtp (.357 dia) over 20.5gr of h110 averaged 1876fps and 977lbs of energy. WIN standard LP brass and WIN LP primers were used for this load. The standard LP primers were starting to flatten at this level but case heads were still down at .479". This gun will be running a compensator on it shortly and should be very effective at taming the beast since.
My ultimate thought with this project was to have something "unique" that had cheap plentiful brass with 357mag ballistics but was soft shooting. The goal wasn't really to be a light bullet at rifle velocity setup but it looks like it may be great as a coyote pistol! I'll work up to 180gr pills over slow powders and see what it can do.
Not too bad for an old wildcat!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171120/fd87a623bbc234b0259c563dfb769286.jpg)
Yes I call it the 38wby as it reminds me of the weatherby rounds.
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I had drawn up some plans for a 9/45 (45ACP necked down to 9mm). Basically, the same thing. I didn't have access to a machine shop, so it never got past the drawing stage.
I built a 38/45acp back in the 80's using a 38 Super barrel. I used a Gov't model 1911 Colt. Did all of the Gold Cup mods to it. It shot pretty good with groups at 25yds from bags at an inch with 125gr HPs. All it turned out to be was a 357 semi auto. I had tons of issues with cases that would split during the forming process. And that was using annealed brass. Brass life in mine was a paltry 3 times thru the gun and it was done. Split necks were common. I still have it but it's probably been 20 years since I've seen it. I guess I should dig it out of the vault one of these days. Then there's finding the ammo and all things considered, that's probably why I won't be shooting it any time soon. Far too many that I load for and far too much of too little sitting in the cabinets and boxes.
I'll consider my self fortunate then! I just made up about 500 pieces of brass and only messed up 2 so a .4% failure rate is pretty good in my mind.
I'll start working up more data in the next few weeks but I believe 2000fps with a 125gr is attainable with what I've seen so far in my gun. I'm more interested in the heavier bullets but it's always fun seeing the chrono edge closer to that 2000fps number.
The original .38/.45 Clerk (pronounced Clark) was a fairly good performer. a modern, "Magnum" level version should prove interesting.
Ok some time has gone by since I updated this so here we go...
We decided to make a bit of an improved round so we shifted the shoulder forward .030". We wanted more capacity plus no next tension issues so 30 thou worked nicely (see pic of the normal and improved case). Capacity of the improved puts it about 1.5g ahead of the 9x25 dillon when filling all 3 with 300mp powder.
So far I have only tested 300mp in the gun which is very slow, but was a safe one to work with.
So far I my best results have been:
125gr, 22.0g 300mp 1877fps avg, 977lbs of energy.
158gr, 17.5g 300mp 1511fps avg, 800lbs of energy.
180gr, 16.0g 300mp 1448fps avg, 837lbs of energy.
All loads were with blazer SPP 45 brass and S&B small rifle primers
Case heads were no larger than .4755". I'm running out of room in the case and may be able to a little higher in these loads with 300mp. H110 is a touch quicker burning and my yield better numbers still? I'll max out the 300mp before swapping powders but overall I'm happy with the results so far!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/1f30ce13df7b28b7c0123e38320b6239.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/a2cf13bd428d268501bed327d4b02ca6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/35201de6681a2b95b81fb9619f780628.jpg)
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Interesting cartridge and setup! 8)
Maxed out the 300mp over the weekend with the 125s and 158s. I didn't bother with 180s because I was already close to full compression with 16g. The 16g load was also very accurate so I'm happy with that.
Blazer SP brass and S&B SR primers
125gr xtp over 22.5g 300mp avg 1969fps/1075ft-lbs
158gr php over 18.5g 300mp avg 1604fps/902ft-lbs
Case heads ran .476" (very low still)
Overall I was very impressed with 300mp with the velocity and vs case head. I will begin h110 and aa9 workups soon.
Nice work ss. Please keep us updated.
Thanks,
Keith
Is this a modern version of the .38/45 Clerke?
Yes sir it's essentially a 38/45 clerke improved loaded to 460 Rowland pressures.
This may be fine if one uses .45 Super brass. As long as the pistol is properly set up for it (flat-bottomed firing pin retainer, progressive springs to 26 lbs at the apex of compression, etc.). I like the idea, but the 9 X 23 Winchester seems to have been done first.
I'm not trying to be offensive and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this "reinventing the wheel"?
Not really reinventing per say but enjoying something different. Really my goal was to have a purpose for spp 45 brass so making a bottleneck round and using SR primers worked well. My method for slowing down my slide speed is the 2 port comp pictured on my gun. Since its not a 1911 there is no flat bottom fps option to use. My barrel has case support up to the extractor groove so I don't have a need to use 45 super brass. I believe that SPP cases are stronger than LPP cases anyways so it's worked well for me.
Compared to the 9x23 or 9x25 Dillon the 38/45 is a different animal all together. The 45 case has less mag capacity obviously but will surpass the others ballistically.
With 125s the 9x23 will get you 1500-1600fps the Dillon will get you around 1800fps and the 38/45imp will get you near 2000fps. Whether it's worth it or not is up to the individual.
I swapped my s&b primers with cci400s and re-ran my 22.5g 300mp load with the 125 xtp.
5 shot average has just been bumped to 2014fps and 1125lbs of energy! :o
Always thought it would be an easy build to do a 357/44 Bains & Davis on a Desert Eagle platform. Parts are available to do it just like I did using the 38 Super barrel for the 38/45. Never tried it though and considering you're already passed the published velocities of the B&D, no need to try. Looks like to me you have quite a bit more than a 357 mag on a semi auto platform. Yer kinda out there, all by yerself on this one now.
Yeah I'm by the looks of it completely on my own with this project. But that's ok with me, I've had a lot of fun with it.
I began my 90gr xtp workup with aa9 a couple weeks ago, so far:
90xtp, Blazer SP 45 brass, s&b SR primers, COL 1.205"
15.0g aa9: 1498fps, 448lbs, .474CH
16.0g aa9: 1656fps, 547lbs, .474CH
17.0g aa9: 1719fps, 590lbs, .474CH
18.0g aa9: 1855fps, 687lbs, .4745CH
18.5g aa9: 1904fps, 724lbs, .4745CH
19.0g aa9: 1968fps, 773lbs, .4745CH
19.5g aa9: 2051fps, 840lbs, .4745CH
20.0g aa9: 2110fps, 889lbs, .475CH
Case heads are still very good, and I have a little more room in the case so there is room for improvement. I'll swap to the CCI 400s and see if i get a good pickup like I did with the 300mp.
20.5g of win296 and the 125s went from 1741fps/841lbs to 1852fps/951lbs when I swapped to the 400s with keeping low case heads so it seems like I'll be staying with 400s with this round.
Finished up my 90xtp workups with aa9:
20.5g went 2154fps and 927lbs energy
21g went 2267fps and 1026lbs energy
21.5g went 2309fps and 1065lbs energy
22.0g went 2418fps and 1168lbs energy
22g was almost to the top of the case. 2400fps is well beyond what the xtps were designed for so these would maybe be good for vaporizing squirrels...
Wow someone was having fun pushing pills! 8)
Do you have any trouble with nose-down feeding stoppages with a full mag?
Tony
No, i only load 5 to 10 at a time usually though. The comp does a wonderful job of slowing things down and i believe that remedies the nosedive issues.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2f0d1qs.jpg)
38 casull version 2.0 completed. This time around i went with a g40 for the MOS capability. I used a diamond file open up the breechface for the casull brass then swapped a g21 extractor in. Hoping the dot sight makes long range shooting a bit easier. More testing to come.
has there been any updates on this cartridge/ did this thread continue somewhere else? I would love to do something like this and get the real specs/reamer dimensions. I am considering getting a customer die set and barrel reamer made and would like to convert a Glock 21 357 sig barrel to the improved 38/45 with the shoulder bumped forward .030 and would like to know how this held up ?
I'm still playing with it from time to time. At the moment I have around 75 different loads I've tested for the round from 65 to 180g. So far my highest workups have been:
65g lehigh: 2704fps with power pistol
80g Fort Scott: 2335fps with AA9
80g Barnes TAC-X: 2306fps AA9
90gxtp: 2418fps with AA9
95g TAC-X: 2143fps with AA9
125g: 2101fps with AA9
158g Cast SWC: 1745fps with 2400
180g Cast WFN: 1616fps with 2400
All in blazer SPP 45 brass with cci400s
I responded to you PM on more specifics. The round is a fun round and gives some awesome numbers, best part is since I just run SPP 45 brass it's free!