Experienced a couple of Kabooms. Check your chamber support!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgAL6dmrcHM
Sorry to hear this and glad you aren't too banged up. This video convinced me to buy those Kevlar lined gloves and do my shooting with them. It's my rule that if you shoot enough and long enough IT WILL HAPPEN! I wonder if in a metal frame how it would have went? Possible eject the mag and blow the grip panels off?
I'm still watching the video to see if you took any measurements to smoke out any barrel differences.
Sorry about what happened. Thanks for the video! Thanks for the closeups of all the barrels you have. Very informative.
I'm very loosely forming the idea that KKM may be the best all around aftermarket barrel to go with, assuming their tolerances are consistently held in production over time. Just seems like they have as good as chamber support as should generally be needed for hot loads, while still feeding reliably on account of having a slightly larger overall chamber than either Storm Lake or Bar-Sto.
Otherwise, Storm Lake and Bar-Sto seem to be excellent in the chamber support overall, and are great if a guy doesn't mind tweaking them till they run 100%.
I haven't had my brand new Storm Lake barrel (G20 6.02") out yet and therefore can't comment on it yet. No doubt it's chamber support is excellent, which simply leaves the question of how well it will run with any and all ammo.
MrRedBull616, would you care to share the load data that you had that blew out the casing causing the damage...It wold be good to learn from this situation to help others to not get hurt... ???
My XD 9mm support:
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/68803_470569732981064_477398530_n.jpg)
Someone is having problems with Underwood +P+ in a G26. Trying to see what that looks like.
@ intercooler. Had a mishap w/ a Ruger P-89. The case head was partially " blown-out " and the case was split almost length wise with the split starting almost at the mouth.
To this day, I am not sure what happened but I do not think it was too much powder as the case would not hold much more powder and I was using 7 grains of hs -7 under a 115 fmj which is almost max.
It blew the metal mag. out of the pistol, 1 side of the ambi. safety and the hammer. Needless to say, it would not go back into battery. Fortunately, no person damage other that hand stinging for a few minutes.
Jeez. Glad you are relatively ok. I recently bought a Lonewolf G-20 for my Longslide project and sent it back after I noticed the liberal chamber support that seems to be the norm in their new production barrels.
New Lonewolf barrel on left, Old (at least 2 years) Lonewolf barrel on right.
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww266/yeahitsthatbig/BA59F800-498C-4CB5-8E1B-821A46ED9ADE-15338-000010B98D9B8FC3.jpg)
(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww266/yeahitsthatbig/33B207E2-D868-4C38-A414-8D5385A8DA27-15338-000010B97D0829F6.jpg)
I have since ordered a Storm Lake 6.02" 10mm barrel from Midway. It has been on backorder for about 2 months now.
Quote from: Danimal on December 07 2012 11:17:13 AM MST
I have since ordered a Storm Lake 6.02" 10mm barrel from Midway. It has been on backorder for about 2 months now.
Just put one on backorder, myself. It said they are due tomorrow. I have been waiting for 62gr Armscor .224 bullets since September.
Quote from: Bro KV on December 07 2012 04:34:42 PM MST
Quote from: Danimal on December 07 2012 11:17:13 AM MST
I have since ordered a Storm Lake 6.02" 10mm barrel from Midway. It has been on backorder for about 2 months now.
Just put one on backorder, myself. It said they are due tomorrow. I have been waiting for 62gr Armscor .224 bullets since September.
That's the thing with Storm Lake, you can have to wait up to a year or so for a barrel, depending on the barrel ordered. I know this because when I ordered mine some months back I asked them about some people claiming to have to wait a solid year for a barrel. They said that was absolutely true, and never even attempted to dance around the question. I asked why. They said it's because they don't do single barrel orders. They said they do production runs of all the barrels they sell, and when the next production run comes up, then it does, and not before.
So I asked how it happened that the barrel I ordered (G20 10mm 6.02") from them
only took 2 months for me to receive from the day I ordered it. They said it was simply that the production run for the barrel I wanted just happened to be coming up
shortly at the time, so my order was thrown in with that barrel production run.
I'm happy I got mine and was willing to wait however long it took to get it. I wanted A-1 chamber support and wasn't willing to compromise even if it didn't run 100%. What I wish would happen is for more distributors to order more at a time and reorder before they run out. But it is what it is and we'll just have to live with it.
KKM would be my only other consideration. I'm not willing to pay the price for Bar-Sto. Lone Wolf is a shot in the dark being that you never know what you'll get from them. As for EFK Firedragon; I have no clue. Seems no one wants to be the first to try one and/or forward feedback on one if they do have one.
Anyway, the key to Storm Lake is patience. Kinda just have to try to forget about, and when you get it you get it. It's worth the wait IMHO. 8)
Did you order direct from SL?
Yes. But even though they aren't accepting factory direct purchases anymore, it won't really take any longer to get one through a distributor like Midway than if you ordered factory direct, because the barrels will still only be produced when the next production run for the barrel in question comes up for another production run.
To get the best answer on when you'll get your barrel, I would call Storm Lake and ask when the next production run for the barrel you want is scheduled to come around again. They were more than happy to tell me, and even though I had still ordered factory direct, I don't see why they wouldn't be just as happy to tell you even considering you'll get yours through a distributor. I've never got the impression from them that they aren't generally driven by customer satisfaction. Only that we'ld prefer they drop everything and fill our order ASAP, which isn't how they choose to do business for whatever reason. Maybe it's a quality over speed/quantity thing? :-\
Storm Lake phone numbers;
Ordering - (866)392-1654
Technical Support - (865)988-8933
Storm Lake full contact web page with hours of operation; http://www.storm-lake.com/support (http://www.storm-lake.com/support)
I have all the original barrels in my pistols. Why is it Glocks need them and then even when you get aftermarket they don't seem to be what people are looking for :-X
Quote from: Danimal on December 07 2012 11:17:13 AM MST
Jeez. Glad you are relatively ok. I recently bought a Lonewolf G-20 for my Longslide project and sent it back after I noticed the liberal chamber support that seems to be the norm in their new production barrels.
New Lonewolf barrel on left, Old (at least 2 years) Lonewolf barrel on right.
I have since ordered a Storm Lake 6.02" 10mm barrel from Midway. It has been on backorder for about 2 months now.
I have several LWD barrels, and none of them look like your "new" barrel. I hope they get their act together, as I really like the ones I have, and planned to order others. At this time, I'd rather buy older used, than new.
Glockmeister has them (Storm Lake 6.02" G-20 barrel) listed on their site. However, they're $25 more than Midway, and I don't think that they show real time inventory. I tried to order my Longslide from them and it said it was available on their site, but when I called to verify if they actually had them in stock the guy laughed and said it would be at least 3-6 months before they actually got them in.
Anyways, at the end of the day I'll never buy another Lonewolf barrel, unless it's for a bottlenecked cartridge.
Damnit. The 6.02" barrel on back order was supposed to be in 12/08. Just looked at it shows 12/30 for an expected date now. Guess I'll give glockmeister a shot.
In that case, for the extra $25, I would too. 8)
I have 7 storm lake barrels. None of them fit correctly in my 3 Glock 20s. Slide is slightly retracted on all of them. I don't know if that is the reason why they feed for crap (i've already sent some of them back once and personally polished the hell out of the chamber) or the super tight chamber or combo of both.
powder we were using was longshot for the 40sw 135 nosler and 10mm 200 nosler. I've shot my friend's ammo plenty before in other barrels with out incident and have since fired more of the same loadings in said barrels still with out incident.
I contacted lone wolf back on 11/20 after it happened and have since received zero response of any kind.
I will probably continue to purchase their barrels but not in 40sw or 10mm. The fact that they haven't given any response is disappointing. I have had a kkm with weak chamber support...so the point of the video was to check all your barrels and your brass as you fire.
For future reference, when working up loads or trying a new barrel, REMOVE THE MAGAZINE! That would've prevented the damage to your frame and your hand.
If I understood right from the video, you're gun blew up with the first shot out of a new barrel, right? This is exactly why you must work up loads in your barrel, don't assume a load that works in one barrel is safe in another! There's a lot more to it than just chamber support too; you can't just check that and assume your hot loads are safe in that barrel.
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on December 08 2012 11:52:32 AM MST
I have 7 storm lake barrels. None of them fit correctly in my 3 Glock 20s. Slide is slightly retracted on all of them. I don't know if that is the reason why they feed for crap (i've already sent some of them back once and personally polished the hell out of the chamber) or the super tight chamber or combo of both.
Doesn't it say that there maybe some fitment required?
agree 100%. learned the hard way :)
Quote from: Yondering on December 08 2012 12:43:24 PM MST
For future reference, when working up loads or trying a new barrel, REMOVE THE MAGAZINE! That would've prevented the damage to your frame and your hand.
If I understood right from the video, you're gun blew up with the first shot out of a new barrel, right? This is exactly why you must work up loads in your barrel, don't assume a load that works in one barrel is safe in another! There's a lot more to it than just chamber support too; you can't just check that and assume your hot loads are safe in that barrel.
Quote from: Yondering on December 08 2012 12:43:24 PM MST
For future reference, when working up loads or trying a new barrel, REMOVE THE MAGAZINE! That would've prevented the damage to your frame and your hand.
If I understood right from the video, you're gun blew up with the first shot out of a new barrel, right? This is exactly why you must work up loads in your barrel, don't assume a load that works in one barrel is safe in another! There's a lot more to it than just chamber support too; you can't just check that and assume your hot loads are safe in that barrel.
I'll echo this. Every "new" load should be handled in the same manner. "New" can mean almost anything, including new/different gun components. The same also applies to a load when using different components, including a new/different lot of powder or primers. Even bullet weights can vary significantly over time, and it wouldn't be the first time if a manufacturer mislabels a whole run of bullets.
Kevlar gloves, enhanced eye/face protection (full face shield), ballistic vest (soft body armor, or Clint Eastwood style), magazine OUT, long sleeves, spectators at a distance, and more. Overkill? Perhaps. It's only weird until something bad happens. Also, it's entertaining to see the reactions of first-time guests at my range while in full EOD garb. Why risk it? My family needs me and my abilities.
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on December 08 2012 01:09:40 PM MST
agree 100%. learned the hard way :)
Actually, you learned the EASY way. The hard way is discussed posthumously.
I have 7 barrels for G20. you would think ONE of them would not have this issue in one of my 3 G20s. My G20s are early gen 3, mid gen 3 and last month. They have been sent back and SLB can't figure it out. I sent them a video and they can't figure it out. I'm not saying they are a bad barrel cuz they are much more accurate than lone wolf and maybe even KKM. But plan on the real possibility you may have to send it back and fit it etc etc.
Quote from: Bro KV on December 08 2012 12:49:13 PM MST
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on December 08 2012 11:52:32 AM MST
I have 7 storm lake barrels. None of them fit correctly in my 3 Glock 20s. Slide is slightly retracted on all of them. I don't know if that is the reason why they feed for crap (i've already sent some of them back once and personally polished the hell out of the chamber) or the super tight chamber or combo of both.
Doesn't it say that there maybe some fitment required?
if anyone wants some storm lake barrels I'll sell a few... (all the stuff im selling I think stinks so don't come back to me and say I didn't warn you)
G20 storm lake 5.3" extended ported ss finish - $130
G20 storm lake 4.6" black finish - $135
G29 storm lake 3.8" ss finish - $121
Those are pretty close to my buddy's prices (he's a dealer with them) so I'm not going any lower than what's posted above. They also just raised their prices for next year so that's another reason.
also have
glock store tungsten guide rod with 22# ism spring - $44
lone wolf ss guide rod 22# spring - $18
wolff guide rod and (2) 22lb wolff springs - $29
lone wolf g29 ported barrel - new unfired - $100
lone wolf G20 9x25 dillon 6" barrel - $105
lone wolf G29 9x25 dillon 3.8" bbl - $90
lone wolf G21 400corbon 4.6" bbl - $80
G20 10rd mags - new $20 ea (have 2)
trijicon front sight 2012' new g20 21 29 30 - $30
we need a for sale section!
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on December 08 2012 11:52:32 AM MSTI have 7 storm lake barrels. None of them fit correctly in my 3 Glock 20s. Slide is slightly retracted on all of them. I don't know if that is the reason why they feed for crap (i've already sent some of them back once and personally polished the hell out of the chamber) or the super tight chamber or combo of both.
That's just weird. Will you post a pic or video showing what you're saying?
Did you buy all 7 barrels at the same time (like from the same batch)?
I have one G20 and one Storm Lake barrel for it. Haven't shot anything through it yet. I compared its fit to the stock barrel of the G20. I can't see a difference in the way they fit. Not that my Storm Lake barrel shouldn't fit properly, but was just checking it out after what you said and couldn't tell any difference.
Pics or video of what you're saying would be great.
bought 3 at same time. rest I bought used from different places and at different times.
ok i'll do a vid
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on December 11 2012 09:04:41 AM MST
bought 3 at same time. rest I bought used from different places and at different times.
ok i'll do a vid
Thank you, looking forward to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?edit=vd&v=J2lGyHrtplc
could have shown more but it's a waste of time. They all do the same thing. April's cure is to send them all in at my expense (already sent 3 of them and they hosed that up). David's cure is to "have one of his "techs" look at them all..because he doesn't have the time and that's not what he does." He also wants the whole gun..which I replied should I send in all 4 guns they don't work/fit in??? lol
I'm not bitter or mad or trying to be a dink. The above is exactly what they said. I just think it's sad and frustrating, because they seem to have the ability (machinery) to make a hell of a barrel. The cuts on them are beautiful...they obviously must have a very high dollar cnc.
My only problems with them are they haven't figured out the feed ramp yet to get reliable feeding into their super tight chambers. The black coating just makes this worse. And they have this weird quirk where the slide is slightly retracted on all of them...at least the 7 barrels I have which are all for the glock 20 and glock 29. I can not speak for any other models.
btw they did not offer to exchange the barrels. they did offer to refund the purchase price if I could produce a receipt...which is no problem on the 3 I bought from my dealer but the rest of them I'm S O L.
The whole thing is just a sad frustrating waste of time and effort.
well i know someone will ask so...
hood length
SLB 6" = 1.3345
glock factory 4.6" = 1.3350
lone wolf 5.2 threaded = 1.3360
SLB 357sig conv = 1.3355
so that's not it.
by the way 10mmFire is going to be my new youtube channel. I'm going to start doing something different on the ballistics testing front. I'll also be moving all my vids from redbull616 channel to the 10mmfire channel so if you like my vids please subscribe to 10mmFire . Thanks!!!
RedBull616, there are three very important points of contactfor these...
The barrel hood length which you show them as less than factory, this adjust the headspacing with the breech face.
The forward step helps with lockup to the slide and it appears that they are fitting upward into the slide lik they should.
The locking lug is another area which may be the problem, as it is camming on the locking block of the frame.
This are could be the one that is holding you barrels & frame fit out of full lockup. The smallest differences here can affect the lockup of the gun. Great care is needed to insure that this fit is correct, it may take specialized jig & measuring tools to full see any differences as compared to the factory barrel fit. These angles are critical for proper lockup timing.
You may want to look at the locking block itself for wear patterns.
Good luck with getting things fixed!
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on December 13 2012 07:17:19 AM MST
http://www.youtube.com/watch?edit=vd&v=J2lGyHrtplc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?edit=vd&v=J2lGyHrtplc)
could have shown more but it's a waste of time. They all do the same thing. April's cure is to send them all in at my expense (already sent 3 of them and they hosed that up). David's cure is to "have one of his "techs" look at them all..because he doesn't have the time and that's not what he does." He also wants the whole gun..which I replied should I send in all 4 guns they don't work/fit in??? lol
I'm not bitter or mad or trying to be a dink. The above is exactly what they said. I just think it's sad and frustrating, because they seem to have the ability (machinery) to make a hell of a barrel. The cuts on them are beautiful...they obviously must have a very high dollar cnc.
My only problems with them are they haven't figured out the feed ramp yet to get reliable feeding into their super tight chambers. The black coating just makes this worse. And they have this weird quirk where the slide is slightly retracted on all of them...at least the 7 barrels I have which are all for the glock 20 and glock 29. I can not speak for any other models.
btw they did not offer to exchange the barrels. they did offer to refund the purchase price if I could produce a receipt...which is no problem on the 3 I bought from my dealer but the rest of them I'm S O L.
The whole thing is just a sad frustrating waste of time and effort.
Good video. Are you certain the slide lock is installed correctly? What direction is the "hook" edge facing? Can you unlock the slide w/o pulling rearward? If it's backwards, it will cause what you are seeing, moreso with some barrels. With my OEM barrels, it's barely noticeable at all.
the locking lug was my guess. Which basically means that every 10mm bbl coming out of SLB right now is being cut wrong....cuz none of them fit correctly (all slightly retracted) on 2 early gen 3 frames a brand new gen3 frame and my buddy had a Gen4 G21 frame (same as 20) which it also did the same thing.
I tried to explain this to David but I honestly think it went right over his head. I'm not trying to say the guy is a dummy but he just didn't get it...I just don't get the feeling he knows much about barrel making. I'm guessing that is why he referred to his "tech" looking at them and he doesn't do that".
Bottom line to me is I don't really care - all I know is the barrels don't fit right and I've already spent a lot of time polishing up the chambers and sending the 3 barrels back because they weren't done correctly to begin with.
barrel 1 - 6" - would barely feed - they opened up the ramp just a tiny bit
barrel 2 - 4.6" black finish - would not feed at all - they opened up ramp just a tiny bit - helped but the chamber is so tight due to the coating...until I polished it several times (mirror finish) ...it barely runs well now.
barrel 3 - 4.6 ss finish - sent me a G21-10mm conv but marked G20. Also didn't feed well. All they did was cut the breach to fit the G20 like it should but did not address that it didn't feed well.
I've polished the chambers and ramps all to a mirror shine to get them as good as they are which isn't that good. I've also burned up a bucnh of ammo trying to get them to work. let's just say david was not moved by my efforts or expenditure of 10mm ammo to try and get his barrels to work.
I'm not trying to be on here bad mouthing SLB. This was my experience. Like I said it's sad and frustrating because they seem to have the machinery to make some awesome barrels.
yeah I'm sure on that.
I thought it might be a number of things but everything produced same result. Also that new frame I showed in the video is straight out of the box unfired...never messed with etc etc...yielding same results.
Quote from: DM1906 on December 13 2012 08:47:31 AM MST
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on December 13 2012 07:17:19 AM MST
http://www.youtube.com/watch?edit=vd&v=J2lGyHrtplc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?edit=vd&v=J2lGyHrtplc)
could have shown more but it's a waste of time. They all do the same thing. April's cure is to send them all in at my expense (already sent 3 of them and they hosed that up). David's cure is to "have one of his "techs" look at them all..because he doesn't have the time and that's not what he does." He also wants the whole gun..which I replied should I send in all 4 guns they don't work/fit in??? lol
I'm not bitter or mad or trying to be a dink. The above is exactly what they said. I just think it's sad and frustrating, because they seem to have the ability (machinery) to make a hell of a barrel. The cuts on them are beautiful...they obviously must have a very high dollar cnc.
My only problems with them are they haven't figured out the feed ramp yet to get reliable feeding into their super tight chambers. The black coating just makes this worse. And they have this weird quirk where the slide is slightly retracted on all of them...at least the 7 barrels I have which are all for the glock 20 and glock 29. I can not speak for any other models.
btw they did not offer to exchange the barrels. they did offer to refund the purchase price if I could produce a receipt...which is no problem on the 3 I bought from my dealer but the rest of them I'm S O L.
The whole thing is just a sad frustrating waste of time and effort.
Good video. Are you certain the slide lock is installed correctly? What direction is the "hook" edge facing? Can you unlock the slide w/o pulling rearward? If it's backwards, it will cause what you are seeing, moreso with some barrels. With my OEM barrels, it's barely noticeable at all.
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on December 08 2012 11:52:32 AM MSTI have 7 storm lake barrels. None of them fit correctly in my 3 Glock 20s. Slide is slightly retracted on all of them. I don't know if that is the reason why they feed for crap (i've already sent some of them back once and personally polished the hell out of the chamber) or the super tight chamber or combo of both.
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on December 13 2012 07:57:50 AM MSThood length
SLB 6" = 1.3345
glock factory 4.6" = 1.3350
lone wolf 5.2 threaded = 1.3360
SLB 357sig conv = 1.3355
so that's not it.
After what I all quoted you on above it got me curious toward comparing my own barrels for my G20. Those are limited to the stock 4.6" barrel and my new Storm Lake 6.02" barrel. What became obvious pretty quickly was how there's barely a cut on either barrel that's the same. Clearly in the lug area of both barrels there are many differences, where in most cases, there is simply more steel left on the SLB.
I also quickly noted the same as you in regard to the SLB holding the slide further back as my pics clearly show just like in your video. What I can't figure out is which cut(s) cause this, not that I spent a whole ton of time trying to figure it out. My main food-for-thought to convey, right or wrong (I really have no clue), is I'm wondering if you realized how differently all the way around the SLB is cut compared to the stock G20 barrel. That being considered, I wonder if there's anything SL could even do about
simply recutting one of their barrels toward it not holding back the slide to any different extent than the stock G20 barrel does. I feel like I'm kinda seeing why the one guy at SL suggested to you having one of his technical gurus having a look. Again, just a bunch of speculation from me that isn't even necessarily worth a whole 2 cents. :-\
I took the following pics for all to see what's different and what's not (BTW, clearly we aren't coming up with the same "hood lengths");
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/SLB602%20%20VS%20%20G2046/P1000168-crop_zpsd09f90fd.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/SLB602%20%20VS%20%20G2046/P1000170-crop_zps813ae87a.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/SLB602%20%20VS%20%20G2046/P1000165-crop_zpsf46c6cf8.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/SLB602%20%20VS%20%20G2046/P1000163-crop_zpsd9133a88.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/SLB602%20%20VS%20%20G2046/P1000175-crop_zpsf1897511.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/SLB602%20%20VS%20%20G2046/P1000171-crop_zpse53703a6.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/SLB602%20%20VS%20%20G2046/P1000194-crop_zpsec2ed7a5.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/SLB602%20%20VS%20%20G2046/P1000198-crop_zps708307c2.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/SLB602%20%20VS%20%20G2046/P1000203-crop_zpsaf4a82c8.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/SLB602%20%20VS%20%20G2046/P1000201-crop_zps883d96b5.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/SLB602%20%20VS%20%20G2046/P1000190-crop_zps6c7858f9.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/SLB602%20%20VS%20%20G2046/P1000186-crop_zps70910448.jpg)
If anyone comes up with differences from what my measurements or pics show, exactly or in general, please post them for comparison. I'm very curious to see what differences we collectively may come across with our different Glock 20 Storm Lake Barrels. 8)
After reviewing the following pic I feel it's clear that the lugs on the SLB extend further toward the end of the barrel (the end the bullet exits). I do realize that I don't have the barrels lined up perfectly in the pics, but I still think I'm correct. I'll be happy to stand corrected if someone can point out otherwise. But from what I'm discerning from the pic, it's the lugs of the SLB holding the slide further back compared to what the stock Glock barrel does. Any agreement on this?
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/SLB602%20%20VS%20%20G2046/P1000190-crop_zps6c7858f9.jpg)
I agree, but good luck getting them to believe you or understand what is going...well now that it's posted on a forum they might take notice. But I made a video for them and wrote it all out before and they (David-owner and April) just didn't comprehend it.
Their response to me was completely unprofessional. Like I said it was frustrating and sad. Aren't the cuts on the SLB barrel beautiful??!!? Anyway, I will not buy from or deal with them until attitudes are changed.
RedLine, Great pictures! I still think it is a combination of the front of the step where it fits inside the slide and the locking lug where it cams, this could be very small differences that "stone polishing" maybe need to adjust the fit.
The barrels would need some sort of fixture to maintain references to take such small measurements in relation to angles and bearing surfaces in relation to the locking block and slide stop to barrel fit.
The benefit would be better dwell timing for positive lock up, to keep the slide and barrel locked slightly longer so pressures can drop off before ejection cycle starts to actually increase the unsupported casing issue where smiles occur.
Storm Lake barrel purchased from Midway USA September 2012 for G20; factory barrel replacement.
Hood: OAL= 1.3355" width= 0.6456" height(measured from top down to shoulder cut at lug)= 0.627"
Lugs measure 0.379" across
Barrel measured at root/center/end = 0.6291"/0.6293"/0.6291"
Overall fit impressions:
Mine seems to be a slight bit tighter fit at the hood from your what your pictures show. I have slight rub marks on the sides and top of my chamber block; no marks on lugs under 10x magnification. Very slight rub marks on the front half of barrel runnig around the entire barrel. Lock up is TIGHT; I dont have feeler gauges small enought to measure but no movement at all when hand pressure is applied to hood or barrel with slide retracted.
This barrel has had 535 rounds of near max handloads run thru it without a failure. I must have finally been sucessful in getting a firearms part that actually works as intended.
I hope you find out whats causing your problems and can get it fixed (and not on your $$).
Dennis
At RedBull's request about more info to describe the issues I sent this to him.
QuoteMan I am not sure if this is what you want or need...
Barrel to Slide this is the opening in the slide that accepts the barrel hood and front step. (these all looked like they fit that opening even though the aftermarket barrels measure slightly longer from the hood to the step)
This leaves the mating surfaces of the barrel lug where it engauges the locking block mounted in the frame and the slide stop.
The barrel is cammed upward on the Locking Block as the Slide and Barrel move forward, to to keep it high enough to maintain the Slide & Barrel engagement.
Also there are corrosponding areas on the Barrel Lug for placement of the slide as it engages the Locking Block. [this maybe the area that is holding the slide back and not allowing full forward engagement]
Then there is a part of the Barrel Lug that engages the Slide Stop. (this is what keeps the Slide and Barrel from sliding off or forward until the Slide Stop is depressed to release the unit to be taken down) [This could also be part of the issue holding the Slide & Barrel back from its full forward lockup]
All of these mating surfaces, notches and angles of the Barrel Lug, in relation to their fit with the Locking Block and Slide Stop, are what controls the dwell timing and proper function.
I hope this helps to explain some of what might be going on in the issues you all are seeing.
Some of these areas are difficult to deal with because they inside the frame and under the slide when the gun is assymbled, this is why I mention some kind of fixture to accurately take measurements of angles and mating surfaces to look for the differences as compared to the stock barrel.
Adding more...
The area infront of the step (flat area horizonal to the bore) if reduced can allow the barrel to move higher into the slide, this small change can affect the other areas as the barrel is cammed even higher, thus may allow further forwad engagement of the slide. Small changes...there and it changes the rest also!
Also look and read about issues here...
http://www.ccfraceframes.com/faq-barrels.html (http://www.ccfraceframes.com/faq-barrels.html)
ha after reading the CCF thing I'm not sure what to do anymore! lol
Excellent article Shadow......I'd noticed the barrel lugs on my LW did not have the same machined profiles as the stk barrel. Perhaps I should look more closely.... ::)
Quote from: The_Shadow on December 15 2012 09:16:17 AM MST
Also look and read about issues here...
http://www.ccfraceframes.com/faq-barrels.html (http://www.ccfraceframes.com/faq-barrels.html)
Quite possibly the most interesting article on aftermarket barrel's I've read. Thanks!
Quote from: REDLINE on December 15 2012 03:38:07 AM MST
After reviewing the following pic I feel it's clear that the lugs on the SLB extend further toward the end of the barrel (the end the bullet exits). I do realize that I don't have the barrels lined up perfectly in the pics, but I still think I'm correct. I'll be happy to stand corrected if someone can point out otherwise. But from what I'm discerning from the pic, it's the lugs of the SLB holding the slide further back compared to what the stock Glock barrel does. Any agreement on this?
Redline, this surface (indicated by the arrows in the pic) is what is holding your slide back. This lug is what controls the fore/aft position of the slide in lockup. It mates to the slide lock / takedown plate; if the barrel lugs don't fit the cut in the plate, it will set the slide back. Or if the lug is just too long.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Misc/SL20vs20Glock.jpg)
oh man that's stupid simple. how can they not know this!
Probably because most folks wouldn't notice it and get in touch with 'em. Or maybe they do and just don't think it's important enough to retool.
Good on ya and your sharp eyes!
Patent infringement perhaps? A hard cut for some CNC equipment? The non OEM way is a cheaper production procedure? Interesting questions to me, but I doubt I'll ever learn the answers.
I think I'll take mine over to my barrel maker on Wed and have him look them over. He loves obscure questions and problems. Hes run his own tool and die shop for over 20 years and has built semi auto rifles from scratch so he should be able to offer a valid opinion and explain to me what the h**l is going on with these barrels.
Dennis
guide rod only sticks out further IF the slide is put on the frame. Otherwise it lines up correctly.
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on December 15 2012 06:31:24 AM MSTI agree, but good luck getting them to believe you or understand what is going...well now that it's posted on a forum they might take notice. But I made a video for them and wrote it all out before and they (David-owner and April) just didn't comprehend it.
Their response to me was completely unprofessional. Like I said it was frustrating and sad. Aren't the cuts on the SLB barrel beautiful??!!? Anyway, I will not buy from or deal with them until attitudes are changed.
You are assuming there is a negative issue with the SLB design. Has it occured to you there may not be? In what I've seen thus far we have zero evidence to suggest there is a negative issue in this (see the sentence below) respect.
I'm specifically refering to the fact that the SLB holds the slide further back than the stock G20 barrel.
Quote from: Yondering on December 15 2012 12:20:43 PM MSTRedline, this surface (indicated by the arrows in the pic) is what is holding your slide back. This lug is what controls the fore/aft position of the slide in lockup. It mates to the slide lock / takedown plate; if the barrel lugs don't fit the cut in the plate, it will set the slide back. Or if the lug is just too long.
Thanks for the clarification. It's more less what I thought but wasn't sure. Wish I new how to make arrows and stuff on photos. Of course it's just laziness that I haven't looked into it. :-[
Quote from: EdMc on December 15 2012 03:08:51 PM MSTPatent infringement perhaps? A hard cut for some CNC equipment? The non OEM way is a cheaper production procedure? Interesting questions to me, but I doubt I'll ever learn the answers.
Excellent considerations of food-for-thought EdMc. Could be: none of, one of, some of, or all of, the above.
AND, we have no reason that I've come across to suggest there's a negative issue anyway.
Quote from: denclaste on December 15 2012 03:35:03 PM MSTI think I'll take mine over to my barrel maker on Wed and have him look them over.
That's a great idea. Please fill us in on his thoughts. 8)
well if that's an acceptable fit to you then I guess there is no problem.
anyone have a different model (other than 20 or 29) storm lake barrel to check fit of?
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on December 15 2012 04:32:46 PM MSTanyone have a different model (other than 20 or 29) storm lake barrel to check fit of?
I'ld be curious to know too. Simply because I wonder if that's a route they take only with the G20, or others too. Especially in the more common Glock models like the G17, G19, G22, G23, G21, and G30, among others.
technically with the SLB barrels cut like this they are slightly out of battery???
So shouldn't that be a safety concern??? if not a timing issue with slide unlocking too soon???
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on December 15 2012 08:09:05 PM MST
technically with the SLB barrels cut like this they are slightly out of battery???
So shouldn't that be a safety concern??? if not a timing issue with slide unlocking too soon???
That is sort of what I would think, held slightly out of full battery and time could be off as well because it is not in the proper place to start with. Sorry if I opened a can of worms by trying to explain this stuff, I was trying to lead you all into looking deeper at all the angles and shapes that are associated with the barrel fit. I had see other articles at another Glock Store site that mentioned this very same issue long ago as well.
BTW, I'll have to look at my Storm Lake barrels (2007) for my G-29 10mm and 40S&W to see if this is an issue on mine. But they have shot well when I used them...
Just checked mine for the G-29 both SL barrels allow the slide to retrun exactly like tha factory barrel.
Keep the stock barrel. Keep it simple.
Change the recoil spring to a 20 or 22 pounder.
Quote from: The_Shadow on December 15 2012 08:41:03 PM MSTThat is sort of what I would think, held slightly out of full battery and time could be off as well because it is not in the proper place to start with.
I wonder though, is it really out of battery at all? This out-of-battery thing is a tad over my head even though I loosely get what it means, but my reasoning is that if the locking lugs of the barrel are fully seated in the locking block of the frame, and the barrel is fully seated in the frame at the same time, and assuming with all that that headspace is correct, then how is it out of battery in any way whatsoever?
I'm thinking of it kind of like the common saying that there's more than one way to skin a cat. Just because slide position is changed, I'm not necessarily sure that either head space or battery position are. In other words, does the SLB dimension that holds the slide back further than the stock G20 barrel have any bearing on what dimension of the SLB controls headspace or in/out of battery dimensions? I'm thinking; No. Thoughts?
In looking at the photo Yondering posted....the left and right sides of the fwd lug have a generous chamfer. The leading edge and corners all have a slight radius that should give a smoother lock/unlock and less abuse to the stop. Or, perhaps, I'm full of it..... :o
All I trying to convey is the Geometry of the after market barrel is different from the Glock Factory barrels, people are seenig the slides are out of the normal position when using a factory barrel...Does this present a problem of having the slide in a different position? Is it a Timing issue? Is it a Lockup issue? Why is the Geometry so different? Should I be concerned?
These are the questions to ask the manufactures...I think they are valid questions for the aftermarket barrel makers to address, explain and / or correct if there is a concern, problem or SAFETY Issue!
These are the things I was trying to express to RedBull seeing how he had so many barrels in question, this also had others looking at their barrel fit as well...We all can learn from this.
After reading on so many different web sites (mostly 10mm stuff) and studing every KaBoom that I can, yes some KB's with aftermarket barrels touted as being "Fully Supported" are reported, the questions remain;
Is this a condition barrel lockup?
Timing Issue?
Is this an Ammunition issue even with premium commercial ammo?
Just brass with a case head blown out?
Scratching my head, to avoid any issues with my own guns...Why? Because I am a Handloader! My mission is to avoid and eliminate a mistake before it happens! Yes, I'm ANAL when it comes to rolling my own! :o
Quote from: REDLINE on December 16 2012 04:30:21 AM MST
Quote from: The_Shadow on December 15 2012 08:41:03 PM MSTThat is sort of what I would think, held slightly out of full battery and time could be off as well because it is not in the proper place to start with.
I wonder though, is it really out of battery at all? This out-of-battery thing is a tad over my head even though I loosely get what it means, but my reasoning is that if the locking lugs of the barrel are fully seated in the locking block of the frame, and the barrel is fully seated in the frame at the same time, and assuming with all that that headspace is correct, then how is it out of battery in any way whatsoever?
I'm thinking of it kind of like the common saying that there's more than one way to skin a cat. Just because slide position is changed, I'm not necessarily sure that either head space or battery position are. In other words, does the SLB dimension that holds the slide back further than the stock G20 barrel have any bearing on what dimension of the SLB controls headspace or in/out of battery dimensions? I'm thinking; No. Thoughts?
If a barrel doesn't go into full battery lockup, the case may be fully into the chamber, but the primer strikes will be off center, and it's a shorter stroke OUT of battery. This affects timing, and can allow an ejection before the pressure begins to decrease (KB!). If the barrel fits into the slide properly before assembled to the frame, but doesn't after assembled, something is causing an interference. Most likely the cam lug to locking block tolerance. Cam lug tolerances are often "adjusted" by aftermarket barrel mfg's to improve timing and cyclic rate for use with higher power/pressure loads.
The locking block is relatively inexpensive (less than $30) compared to the cost of a barrel. If a refinement is considered, I suggest adjusting the locking block, NOT the barrel, until it can be confirmed. Once the locking block is modified to accommodate a specific barrel, other barrels may not fit correctly (or they might, depending on how much adjustment is required). If the channel only needs to be widened a little, it may not affect using other barrels, at all. I would begin with some die on the block and barrel lugs to determine where they are contacted, and where they aren't. A professionally fitted barrel would have this done before you get to fire your first round.
Thanks for your thoughts guys!
I'm sure we'll all gain further understanding as time and effort towards answers goes by. 8)
Quote from: REDLINE on December 16 2012 04:30:21 AM MST
Quote from: The_Shadow on December 15 2012 08:41:03 PM MSTThat is sort of what I would think, held slightly out of full battery and time could be off as well because it is not in the proper place to start with.
I wonder though, is it really out of battery at all? This out-of-battery thing is a tad over my head even though I loosely get what it means, but my reasoning is that if the locking lugs of the barrel are fully seated in the locking block of the frame, and the barrel is fully seated in the frame at the same time, and assuming with all that that headspace is correct, then how is it out of battery in any way whatsoever?
You are correct, the barrel is not out of battery, if it's fully locked up in the slide but the front lug is too long, holding the slide back. That is just a problem with the front lug, and nothing to do with being out of battery. Timing may be affected though, depending how far the slide is held back.
No way would I modify the locking block for a barrel that's not cut correctly. Fix the part that's wrong - clearly the barrel(s) in this case. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's right. Not only that, but the locking block has nothing to do with holding the slide back in this case. It's the slide lock plate and the barrel lug.
My heads spinning. I better keep to the simple pistols ;D