I want to drop a 6" barrel in my G20SF. So, Storm Lake, Lone Wolf or Bar-Sto (if they make one)?
I use a 6.6" Lone Wolf, but would not recommend their barrels any more, unless you want the extended threaded version like mine (and then, just because it's the only option).
I think I'd choose a KKM if possible.
I would suggest Storm Lake first, Barstow second (if cost isn't an object), KKM third, EFK Firedragon fourth, and I personally wouldn't consider Lone Wolf for all the tea in China.
For more information see;
http://10mm-firearms.com/gunsmithing/aftermarket-barrel-details/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/gunsmithing/aftermarket-barrel-details/)
AND
http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/kimber-offers-more-barrel-chamber-support-in-10mm-than-any-other-manufactuer/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/kimber-offers-more-barrel-chamber-support-in-10mm-than-any-other-manufactuer/)
I have two Storm Lake barrels for my G-29 10mm & 40S&W and both are very nice and have good support...
LWD's barrels seem to have loosen up the chambers recently which isn't setting well with the 10mm users...
However the 357Sig & 9x25 Dillon barrels for the G29 and 9x25Dillon 6" for G20 are very tight chambers and great support.
I have two Match Grade Bar-Sto barrels one in 40S&W the other in 9x25 Dillon for my S&W1006, I had to fit these to my slide and frame because they required fitting.
All of them are very good support and accuracy too!
I put a Storm Lake barrel on backorder with Midway.
Man, this whole aftermarket barrel thing has got me pretty confused! I do want a 6"+ barrel for hunting and possibly shooting some cheaper lead bullets.
Priorities (in order of importance):
1. Accuracy
2. Case support
3. Cost
Over the past few weeks I think that I've read everything that I can find online, both on this site and on other forums via Google searches.
1. The 6.6" and 6" Lone Wolf are appealing because of their low cost. The 6.6" is unique and would potentially offer the highest velocity. I hate the "in-your-face" logo on the hood. However, it appears that more recent copies do not have the same level of case support as the older copies; in fact, the support looks very similar now to the factory barrel. Also, the chambers seem to be almost too tight, causing a lot of FTF.
2. The 6" Storm Lake looks to have great case support. Some of the recent reports seem to show some poor quality control. Redline's posts specifically.
3. KKM seems to have almost universally good reports. Case support seems to be somewhere in between the Glock and Storm Lake barrels.
4. Bar-Sto is high quality but is a lot more money, especially when you factor in the cost/time of getting the barrel fitted to your slide.
If you could choose today, which barrel would you choose, and why?
I have a LW 5.5'' ported and a 6'' KKM. BOTH shoot feed and cycle perfectly with my loads and factory Silvertips.
I use the KKM more as I am not such a fan of porting, but for the price I paid for the LW barrel I could not turn it down.
CW
Quote from: RMM on March 16 2013 06:26:35 PM MDT3. KKM seems to have almost universally good reports.
I've come to the same conclusion in all my poking around. I got the Storm Lake 6" for my G20 (still patiently waiting on a replacement from Storm Lake with no regrets). I want a barrel for my G29 also at some point in the not too distant future. For the G29 I'm planning on giving KKM the business.
Thanks for all of the replies!
I will focus my further research on KKM. There are a few 6.6" LW barrels on eBay for $112+$4 S&H that are tempting.... ~70 less than KKM. I wonder if they would be too long to be really useful. I guess that maybe at that price I don't have much to lose?
The scary part (in my mind) is you usually get what you pay for. Personally I highly suggest dropping the extra $70 and going KKM. Of course it is your choice. I'm just throwing around my 2 cents. ;)
I suspect that you're right, Redline.
I think I'll have to find a few more old toys to sell to finance this new "add-on".
I was all set to go with the Lone Wolf until I read about and saw pictures of the "new-and-improved" chamber support! It looks worse than the factory barrel in some instances!
I spoke with Kevin at KKM via e-mail, he said that there is a 1-2 week lead time currently. After doing WAY TOO MUCH research on the subject, I ended up ordering a 6" KKM this afternoon. Pictures to follow in a few weeks...
(Found some old electronic stuff and books sitting in the closet I could sell ;) )
Quote from: RMM on March 20 2013 04:08:48 PM MDTI ended up ordering a 6" KKM this afternoon.
IMO you chose well. In the long run I think you'll be very glad you did. Can't wait to see the pics and get your general opinion of the fit/finish and functionality.
KKM Precision IMO is "not" just a company name....these boys mean it.... PRECISION ! I have ran a G20 gen3 6" drop-in for over a year now and I will not stray from that barrel.
I acquired a G35 gen4 and the very 1st thing I did was to install a Match 40 S&W drop-in.......again....loving it!
I feel you can rest easy...you made a wise decision.
Jeeze, all these people with Glocks wanting a 3rd party barrel. I have 2 10mm pistols, both of them 1911's. A 5" Dan Wesson Razorback, and a 6" Fusion Firearms custom built long slide.
No third party barrels needed!
I am not aware of a Glock actually needing any 3rd party parts either. What is nice is that there are an abundance of aftermarket options available for those that want to customize their Glocks to fit their individual preference. In my opinion, a Glock is an excellent firearm that fits most peoples needs with no customization. There are those, like myself, that like to tinker with things to try to personalize and optimize their Glocks. I'd prefer to own a firearm that I can easily and affordably modify over one that is limited or expensive to customize.
Driftwood , I couldn't have said it any better. Very straight forward and honest post. +++1
Quote from: gandog56 on March 21 2013 10:55:59 AM MDT
Jeeze, all these people with Glocks wanting a 3rd party barrel. I have 2 10mm pistols, both of them 1911's. A 5" Dan Wesson Razorback, and a 6" Fusion Firearms custom built long slide.
No third party barrels needed!
You're using your custom built long slide as an example to mock people wanting a custom 6" barrel in their Glocks? Am I missing something?
Quote from: gandog56 on March 21 2013 10:55:59 AM MDTJeeze, all these people with Glocks wanting a 3rd party barrel. I have 2 10mm pistols, both of them 1911's. A 5" Dan Wesson Razorback, and a 6" Fusion Firearms custom built long slide.
No third party barrels needed!
True, but there are still reasons some of us choose the Glock platform regardless, and on top of that we're still money ahead. Will the Glocks ever have a trigger pull like the trigger pulls on your DW or Fusion? No. But there's always give and take.
Why I own a G20 over any of the 1911 style platforms regardless of cost (not necessarily in this order):
a) No manual safetys.
b) No break in period needed.
c) 15 round capacity per mag.
d) Half the cost (or less) to buy new.
e) Blacked out color scheme and nonreflective.
f) Less weight (G20=27.7oz., RZ-10=38.4oz.)
g) Way less moving parts, and less parts overall (34 component parts).
h) Extremely rarely ever needs to be "tuned" no matter what you put it through.
i) More than acceptable accuracy from a platform designed with slop in it to run no matter what.
j) All major steel components are treated in a super hard coating with excellent corrosion resistance.
k) Even when gummed up or filthied up with sand and/or mud it will usually keep shooting without skipping a beat.
l) Parts that are commonly far less expensive to replace or upgrade when and if any part ever needs replacing or someone wants to upgrade.
That said, I'm well aware why others like yourself choose what they do and would never dis you for it. I'm just happy all these options exist! 8)
The G20 is a great gun in stock form. It doesn't NEED anything. All modifications that I make are for fun, and to tailor the gun for a specific use.
In my case, I plan on hunting (or at least, attempting to!) mule deer with this gun. A 6" barrel provides some additional velocity out at 50 yards. Is it necessary? Probably not. As a bonus, the aftermarket barrel provides some more life to brass for reloading.
When the gun is used for defensive purposes it will always have the stock barrel in it. I think that the factory barrel will feed rounds dropped in the mud if needed.
I have also smoothed out the trigger a bit. I have carefully fitted a Ghost Rocket 3.5 lb. connector, increased power trigger spring, and reduced power safety plunger spring. All mating surfaces were carefully polished. I did not install a reduced power striker spring because it can lead to light strikes and reduced reliability.
The factory trigger is fine, I have been shooting factory Glock triggers for years and have learned to use them well. This is the first time that I have changed anything on any Glock that I own. I just thought it would be a fun project, and since I plan on shooting at longer ranges with this gun, any small improvement would be helpful. Anyone that has watched Hickok45's videos knows what can be done with a box-stock Glock trigger and some practice.
All of my other Glocks are box-stock, and I don't plan on changing them at all.
Why did I choose a G20 vs. 1911 style gun?
1. Familiarity and consistency. My main guns are Glocks and am familiar with their trigger, feel, sights, and function. My muscle memory carries over. No new training is needed. This is a BIG deal to me.
2. Cost. A G20 for $550 is cheaper than most 1911 style guns (especially the good ones!)
3. Reliability. A factory G20 can handle the full-power ammo and do so for a long time. They run 100% in stock form, clean or dirty. Parts are cheap and easily available.
4. Weight. G20 with 15 rounds weighs the same as most steel 1911s empty.
However, I do understand why some would prefer a 1911 style 10mm. If you are proficient with 1911 style pistols and own several, it makes sense to stick with that platform. The G20 (even the SF) is a CHUNKY gun vs. the 1911 style. And, the Glock trigger will never be as crisp as a finely tuned 1911 trigger.
Very well defended, gentlemen. I have both platforms, among others, and like all my weapons nearly equally. I shoot what I like, and like what I shoot. I've modified many of them for specific purposes, and some because of the "cool" factor (for me, not you), because I can. Add to that, in some states, minimum barrel lengths are required for hunting. It isn't about which is better, or "having" to modify one to make it comparable to the other. If it shoots when it should, where it should, it's a good gun. Period.
I have both. I prefer a 1911. In most respects a bone stock Colt Gov't model with a park finish escapes the majority of the criticism heaped by the Glock fanboys. It does have a manual safety, which I personally see as an advantage. It only holds 7 rounds, can't argue that. Tenifer is better than Park, by some.
Old arguments. I carry both over the span of a few days.
I have both also, and like them each for what they are. I like the 1911 for it's accuracy (if it's well tuned), good trigger, and the feel of it in my hand. I like the Glock for it's utilitarian no-frills design, and it's strength and reliability. Truth is, I'm more fond of a full size steel frame 1911, but carry a G19 every day, because it's a better modern fighting pistol, and use a G20 for my 10mm platform because I feel it's the strongest and most capable in the 10mm full-power realm.
I don't remember if I'd posted a pic of my P16 on here before - this one was technically a 40, but with the long throated barrel, I often long-loaded to 10mm specs, just using 40 S&W brass. I no longer have this one, but it was a sweet shooter. The round in the pic is a 220gr WFN at 1.260" for 1190 fps.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/IMG_4546a.jpg)
Lovely gun. One of my carry guns is a P16-40, but mine is converted to 10mm.
Quote from: Yondering on March 22 2013 02:24:21 PM MDT
I don't remember if I'd posted a pic of my P16 on here before - this one was technically a 40, but with the long throated barrel, I often long-loaded to 10mm specs, just using 40 S&W brass.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/IMG_4546a.jpg)
You WHAT!
Dood that is so unsafe . I'm so surprised your gun did not blow apart. Please other people....NEVER do this no matter how strong you think the gun is!
Why did you not go with a factory 6" Glock barrel?
I have nothing against the aftermarket barrels I am just curious why you did not see that as an option.
Quote
You WHAT!
Dood that is so unsafe . I'm so surprised your gun did not blow apart. Please other people....NEVER do this no matter how strong you think the gun is!
I have to echo this post. Under no circumstances should you load a caliber using the data of another caliber.
Loading a .40 S&W to 10mm Auto specs is a recipe for a catastrophic failure. Keep in mind with the smaller case capacity if loaded to the same powder charge the .40 will have much greater pressure than the 10mm.
I too am surprised your gun did not turn into a bomb.
I will have to come to Yondering's defense here, what he is doing is loading the bullets LONG (throated chamber allowed the bullets to be seated as such), this gives him back the case capacity with a little less bullet tension. His gun was setup for this round as loaded, which worked at the 10mm specs. Proper powder selection and bullet tension to prevent set-backs were the key to performance in that set-up...This type of thing is not for anyone to just start pushing 40S&W to 10mm specs, so I agree that CAUTION and proper understanding of what's involved are crucial to loading as described... :-\
Ditto The_Shadow. Nothing wrong with what Yondering is doing. If you don't fully understand the concept, backed by years/decades of experience, don't do it.
Shadow and DM1906 are correct about my post above. Nothing dangerous or scary about loading 40 long; loading to "10mm specs" includes OAL, if you missed that in my post.
For those who don't understand, but might want to, this picture shows a long loaded 40 S&W next to a 10mm, both loaded to 1.260" with the same 180gr FMJ bullet. Powder capacity is the same for both. The differences are lower neck tension for the long loaded 40, and the smaller primer, these result in lower pressure and about 50 fps less velocity, compared to the same load in the 10mm case.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Misc/IMG_0137a.jpg)
Still would NOT do it, and advise others no to!
I would advise most not too. But that doesn't mean what Yondering is doing is not safe, it just is not for anyone who might have to ask about doing it.
If a given reloader isn't knowledgable enough to know the answer to the question "Is this safe/Should I try?", then they don't know enough to handle the answer they might get, and may do something in their ignorance that endangers themselves or others.
But, Yondering has a good handle on things. I don't think we are likely to see him posting pictures of his disembodied fingers.
I'll bet Yondering couldn't even truly answer "is this really safe to do"? Why take the chance. I mean there is such a thing as a 10mm gun.....and a 10mm Magnum, even.
Quote from: Hunter on March 23 2013 03:26:18 PM MDT
Why did you not go with a factory 6" Glock barrel?
I have nothing against the aftermarket barrels I am just curious why you did not see that as an option.
I did think about the factory Glock barrel. It is attractive for several reasons; you know that the fit/finish will be good, you know that the reliability will be the same as stock. The chamber dimensions are the same as stock. It is probably the most reliable option.
I wanted the better case support for longer brass life, and the ability to run lead/dry lube bullets.
Quote from: gandog56 on March 24 2013 07:58:43 PM MDT
I'll bet Yondering couldn't even truly answer "is this really safe to do"? Why take the chance. I mean there is such a thing as a 10mm gun.....and a 10mm Magnum, even.
No one is trying to convince you of anything, or trying to encourage you to do anything you don't feel is safe. Know that, first. I will, however, answer the "is this really safe to do" question. It is, in the environment he is in, or I may be in. The math, science and physics are in order. It may not be in your environment. You've also said you don't like Glock pistols, and you would never own one. Many people do, but it doesn't make you wrong. We experienced handloaders do many things that aren't "recommended", and I'd bet Yondering, like me, does many things that will never be discussed on an open forum, such as here. Someone who lacks the knowledge and experience will try things despite the warnings, and someone will get hurt. We know that, and choose our discussions carefully. This is not the case with the "long .40's". All things being equal, it's no more "unsafe" than under any other "normal" condition, using recommended practices. It is what it is.
Add to that......
Just yesterday, I fired a few hundred rounds of .40 S&W in my "stock" Glock model 20 pistol. This is also not "recommended". All fired without incident. Nothing blew up (except the reactive targets). Also, the rounds were all cast lead handloads. 2 other no-nos, in a Glock pistol. So, that's 3 rules broken. The sun still came up this morning. None of this is recommended by Glock, and I don't recommend anyone do this. I control my environment. I cannot control yours. Can do and should do are not the same. Bad things happen, even when you do everything right, as recommended. It is what it is.
Let's just say I still would NEVER overcharge a cartridge from a recipe max. Ain't gonna happen with me.
Quote from: gandog56 on March 25 2013 01:21:58 PM MDT
Let's just say I still would NEVER overcharge a cartridge from a recipe max. Ain't gonna happen with me.
I don't think I or anyone else in this thread mentioned overcharging anything. Certainly not the long-loaded .40/10mm that I mentioned. I did attempt to explain that in my last post, but can go into more detail if it's still unclear.
gandog56, it's become clear that you have a very limited understanding of reloading and 10mm pistols in general, and that's fine, everyone starts off that way. I'll offer a suggestion though - if you can be a little less vocal and opinionated about things you don't understand, you'll find many members on this board are very helpful and willing to explain stuff, as you've seen from this thread. You might learn something.
Quote from: gandog56 on March 25 2013 01:21:58 PM MDTLet's just say I still would NEVER overcharge a cartridge from a recipe max. Ain't gonna happen with me.
I don't understand that. First, a load has to be worked up before a suggested max recipe can be deemed safe, and if I was supposed to assume that from your comment, that's fine. But to explain further, a max book recipe may be too much for anyone's individual platform of choice, and therefore in some cases isn't always safe anyway.
Second, many times there is no reason not to work up beyond max within some reason because most max recipes don't hit max PSI for the 10mm Auto cartridge as designated by SAAMI. So sometimes, if there are no discernable over pressure sign(s) at a given max recipe there's little reason to not carefully work up a max recipe load further (till at least a faint sign of a reason to stop is experienced), especially in the case of some platforms with excellent chamber support (T/C G2 Contender, Kimber 1911, S&W Model 610,...among others, not to mention the added support some aftermarket barrels offer over stock setups).
Third, as an example of another reason to SAFELY consider going to some extent beyond a max recipe(s) (assuming it was safe working up to them in the first place) look at the following sources, many using the same bullet and powder:
Hodgdon Powder Company max recipe for a Hornady 155 grain XTP bullet;COL = 1.260", Primer = Winchester Large Pistol, IMR 800-X powder charge = 9.8 grains (claimed to reach 1350 FPS from a 5" barrel and hit 30,000 PSI)
4th Edition Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading for a Hornady 155 grain XTP bullet;COL = 1.260", Primer = Winchester Large Pistol, IMR 800-X powder charge = 9.9 grains (claimed to reach 1300 FPS from a 5" barrel in a Colt Delta Elite)
6th Edition Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading for a Hornady 155 grain XTP bullet;COL = 1.260", Primer = Winchester Large Pistol, IMR 800-X powder charge = 11.5 grains (claimed to reach 1350 FPS from a 5" barrel in a Colt Delta Elite)
Hornady Factory Load for their 155 grain XTP bullet;COL = 1.253", Primer = unknown, Unknown Powder powder charge = 10.1 grains (claimed to reach 1265 FPS)
Further details and a pic of the powder can be viewed here - http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/disected-hornady-155gr-180gr-win-silvertip-175gr-blazer-200gr-and-dt-135gr/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/disected-hornady-155gr-180gr-win-silvertip-175gr-blazer-200gr-and-dt-135gr/)
Underwood Ammunition Factory Load for a Hornady 155 grain XTP bullet;COL = 1.252", Primer = unknown, IMR 800-X powder charge = 10.8 grains (claimed to reach 1500 FPS, DRSJR1969 on YouTube achieved 1492 FPS average from a G20 that had a Lone Wolf 4.6" barrel installed)
Further details and a pics can be viewed here - http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/underwood's-lineup-135155165180220/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/underwood's-lineup-135155165180220/)
Bottomline with the above examples is that many times there are more than one max recipe to consider, not to mention further data from factory loads. Some with all pertinent information, and some not. Either way, there's commonly lots of data to consider before anyone needs to assume it is unsafe to go beyond a max recipe. More often than not there is little reason to not go forward with further SAFE experimentation beyond suggested max recipes.
Well said, gentlemen.
Yondering's "long .40" cartridge is a wildcat, of sorts. Not unlike the 9mm Parabellum, vs. the original Luger (they are not the same, originally). Wildcats are the progressive technology advancement of cartridges. The rules are different, but the science is the same. I've developed dozens of wildcats over the years, most of them flops, some just ridiculous (and fun), but never violating the science. That's how it goes.
What, you've never pinched a 50 BMG neck down to .17" ? ;D
From time to time I get the idea I need a 22 eargesplitten loudenboomer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Eargesplitten_Loudenboomer).
I'm still trying to picture a 378 Wby Mag necked down to .224". I wonder what barrel length they used to get the 4600 FPS. Too bad they couldn't reach the goal with a measly additional 400 FPS.
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/5d3c17baac.jpg)
Quote from: gandog56 on March 29 2013 10:19:19 AM MDT
What, you've never pinched a 50 BMG neck down to .17" ? ;D
It was one of the flops.
Quote from: REDLINE on March 29 2013 12:19:52 PM MDT
I'm still trying to picture a 378 Wby Mag necked down to .224". I wonder what barrel length they used to get the 4600 FPS. Too bad they couldn't reach the goal with a measly additional 400 FPS.
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/5d3c17baac.jpg)
I imagine barrels erode pretty darned fast at 4600 fps!
I can't imagine.
Quote from: REDLINE on March 31 2013 04:12:54 PM MDT
I can't imagine.
I can imagine that barrel erosion at 4600 FPS could be pretty severe. I don't want to have to constantly change the barrels!
It came! (KKM 6") Haven't had to shoot it yet but it looks good and fits nicely in the gun. My pics of the bore aren't nearly as good as the others in this thread... I was tired tonight and impatient. It is hard to get the lighting right for those shots!
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-GnmqfW3/0/XL/i-GnmqfW3-XL.jpg)
Stock G20 bbl support
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-pQcwJc7/0/L/i-pQcwJc7-L.jpg)
KKM 6" support
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-hCBgKGr/0/L/i-hCBgKGr-L.jpg)
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-3HgvMBm/0/L/i-3HgvMBm-L.jpg)
Bore
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-JnjPz75/0/XL/i-JnjPz75-XL.jpg)
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-chbQmZS/0/XL/i-chbQmZS-XL.jpg)
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-NGJ4XxR/0/XL/i-NGJ4XxR-XL.jpg)
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-kQ3Nm2K/0/XL/i-kQ3Nm2K-XL.jpg)
Looks great. 8) Very good chamber support. Not quite as good as my Storm Lake, but much better than the newest LoneWolf reiteration. Love that highly polished bore their button rifling process produces. Looks like the throat area is machined nicely. I expect my next aftermarket barrel will be KKM (stock length for my G29 probably).
I know what you mean about the difficulty with the pics. Between the lighting and getting the focus zeroed in just right...yeah, brings back a couple nightmares.
Now that is how it should look. Very nice. Smooth clean cuts, and good finish on the bore. I see a little bit of chatter marks, but that won't hurt anything.