The picture was posted on Facebook of 10mm 200 grain Gold Dot Hollow Points being sold at Cabelas $28.99.
They are shown as being in stock, but searches of Speer Ammunition and components do not show any 200 grain 10mm ammo or bullets. :o
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=705408&categoryId=0&parentCategoryId=0&subCategoryId=0&indexId=0&productVariantId=5393920&quantity=1&itemGUID=6ede1cb8ac10a0512027c62bcd0c2a2e&destination=%2Fcheckout%2Fitem_added_to_cart.jsp%3Fresult%3Dsuccess%26categoryIds%3D104792580%257C104691780%257C104372280%257C%26productId%3D705408%26WT.z_btnclk%3DChart%26backToPreviousUrl%3D%252Fcatalog%252Fproduct.jsp%253FproductId%253D705408%26WTz_l%3DChart (http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=705408&categoryId=0&parentCategoryId=0&subCategoryId=0&indexId=0&productVariantId=5393920&quantity=1&itemGUID=6ede1cb8ac10a0512027c62bcd0c2a2e&destination=%2Fcheckout%2Fitem_added_to_cart.jsp%3Fresult%3Dsuccess%26categoryIds%3D104792580%257C104691780%257C104372280%257C%26productId%3D705408%26WT.z_btnclk%3DChart%26backToPreviousUrl%3D%252Fcatalog%252Fproduct.jsp%253FproductId%253D705408%26WTz_l%3DChart)
(https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21462469_10214025270895015_2060825286354680618_n.jpg?oh=1e91f479da372e6d60eaaef9ae5aec42&oe=5A517EC2)
So...Either too old or too new to be on the website....Interesting.
I wonder what the velocity is of these rounds?
I would be surprised if they are over 1,000 fps. But I have been surprised before.
I'd like to have just the bullets.... To reload.
some times, companies do that --- I think sportsmans warehouse has "special" grizzly ammo made for them as they seem to be stocking lots of it lately---I check on line on Grizzly's website and they don't show some of the ammo that is in the store--- sent an email to Grizzly months ago and they have never responded --could be wrong though, I've done it before
I saw 3 boxes at local store. I refuse to pay Chicago's .05 per round tax however.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Now I need to visit Cabelas.
Quote from: sqlbullet on September 11 2017 07:51:54 AM MDT
I would be surprised if they are over 1,000 fps. But I have been surprised before.
A 200gr Gold Dot at 1,000 fps is going to leave a mark. ;)
I may need to swing by Cabelas tomorrow myself...
Just check stock for your local store online...easier than driving there to find out they don't have any
For 28.99 I would be happy with 1180 fps.
No specifications on their website?
Quote from: Texashogman on September 11 2017 09:03:11 PM MDT
Just check stock for your local store online...easier than driving there to find out they don't have any
I never avoid an excuse to go to the gun store, unless the excuse is that I am going to the shooting range. ;D
I fired this load out of a 1006 about 20+ years ago. Assuming it is loaded to the same specs, it was a peppy loading. I would like to get these and fire them through the Glock 20.
Edit: Well I just ordered two boxes. Will let you know how they shoot.
I checked the ATK website. The .40 cal 200 grain version is loaded to 915 fps.
I swung by Cabelas today and picked up a box. $28.99/20 plus tax is a bit over $31/20 or $1.50+ a round!
Forgive me as I only shot three over my Chrony at @10 feet. I got 1,098fps, 1,125fps and 1,129fps from my 5" SR1911.
Those rounds at 25 yards landed in the group shown in the attachment. The five taped holes are from my 200gr WFN reloads. Both 200gr loads shoot left of the zero with 180gr Hornady XTP factory loads.
Recoil was surprisingly mild, probably about like a .45acp 230gr +P with no noticeable muzzle flash.
Hopefully they'll have more after payday. I need plinking ammo. ;)
[attachment deleted by admin]
Rick, do you have the means to pull one and weigh the bullet and powder on those? It would be great to document them and actually see the bullets profile to see if they match up with the older ones used in the 40S&W contract ammo...
If these become available as a reloading component, the 200 grain XTP will have some stiff competition.
Quote from: The_Shadow on September 13 2017 06:37:52 PM MDT
Rick, do you have the means to pull one and weigh the bullet and powder on those? It would be great to document them and actually see the bullets profile to see if they match up with the older ones used in the 40S&W contract ammo...
And +1 to that...
Ask and ye shall receive.
Holy Crap these bullets are stuck in the case! I actually broke part of the rim off the casing pounding it out in my kinetic bullet puller! I've never had that happen before.
The powder is sulphur yellow and there was yellow dust all over the casing and bullet when they were finally separated in the puller. My digital and balance beam scales agreed on 7.2gr. The bullet has ample asphalt sealing it and weighs 199.1gr.
See attachments
[attachment deleted by admin]
Somehow the powder attachment didn't make the cut:
[attachment deleted by admin]
Here is what the Pulled 200 grain Speer Gold Dot HP's look like and their info as measured...
Speer 200 grain Gold Dot HP
Hollow Point depth is 0.2525" - 0.2530"
Holl0w Point Outer Dia. 0.3000"
Holl0w Point Inter Dia.0.2020"
Hollow Point is tapered
Bullet Weight 202.4 gr 198.4 gr
Bullet length 0.7000" 0.6995" 0.6965"
Bullet reduced base dia. 0.3125"
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/My%202017%20Bucket/IMG_0161_zpsui4vwhhw.jpg)
Looking at your bullet Rick the base is square and flat so they are slightly different that the ones I pictured above...
Yes Speer does use a black sealant on the bullets and a clear sealer on the primers. The yellow powder looks to be the primer mixture that broke up possibly when the did the final tumbling cleaning or when it was pulled...if you pull that primer carefully you may find that the mixture is gone... :o
Thanks for sharing!
On my bullet:
Hollow point is .276" deep
Opening is .187" wide
Nose around HP is .333"
Bullet is .690" long
The base is concave like most Gold Dot bullets I've seen.
I tried to fire the primer in the pistol and it was dead. Deprimed it and there isn't a speck of compound left. Apparently 40-50 good whacks on a steel plate are more than the poor thing could take.
Thanks for your report about the Speer ammo, did the powder look like Power Pistol or BE-86, being covered with the primer mixture may make it harder to see the differences...
How much did the bullet weigh?
I've never used Power Pistol so I don't have that frame of reference. I think the flakes are chunkier than BE-86. It's outside in the reloading shed so I'll look in the morning.
The bullet itself weighed 199.1 gr.
I am pleasantly surprised to see these loaded to a three shot average of 1,117 fps. That is a bonus 100 fps over where I figured they would load it, and only 83 fps short of full power 10mm. Good job Speer!
Considering the length of the bullet (.690" or so)... That is likely about all they could get out of it within SAAMI limits.
As an example.... The XTP is only .683".
Yeah. I thought exactly the same thing right after I clicked post.
1200 fps is with a TMJ TC design. WFN cast bullet designs get up to 1250. But the Gold Dot is a long for weight bullet, and that means a smaller initial usable case volume. Boyles law is a mean SOB.
This should make a very nice defensive load. I would like to see a ballistics test on it.
I went today looking for those and no one knew anything about them. They tried to convince me on some HSM or buffalo bore. They had very litte powder and no bullets for reloading!
I called Alliant today with a question about BE-86 and since they are now owned by ATK got a Speer guy. After answering my question about the powder I asked if he had access to Speer's ammo information. When I said that Cabelas was carrying a Speer 10mm Gold Dot he immediately said "they're loaded to 1,150fps" before I could even ask. He said the marketing guys released everything except the velocity data. Apparently 1,150fps gave the best expansion and penetration for that bullet.
He also said that this will be a standard production Speer load not some one off for Cabelas.
What were you wanting to know about the BE-86?
Seeing the powder charge weight at only 7.2 grains I suspect it to be BE-86 even though it was covered in the yellow primer mixture in your picture. That also puts the velocity close to the advised 1150 fps.
Actually after looking the powder I pulled down could have been BE-86. The Speer rep described it (BE-86) as an OEM powder that was consistent enough lot to lot for canister sales.
My question about BE-86 was how flexible is it? I was going to try to use it for some reduced loads and wanted to know if it has a narrow usage range like W296 or can you use it like Unique which will work with some pretty low densities. He advised not to drop much more than 10% below max.
My reduced loads are looking like the recipe will be my 200gr WFN over 6.0–6.5gr of good old Unique.
Since the Gold Dots will be a production item and hopefully not made of Unobtainium It looks like they'll be my social carry load.
BE-86 is a little faster burning than Power Pistol (which was BE-84)(both are derived from and adjusted from Bullseye hence the BE designation. It has loads listed across many cartridges and calibers for pistols. It is faster than W-296/H-110, and you will use less of it for nearly the same results velocity wise vs. pressures. It is said to be flash suppressed powder as well as the lot-to-lot consistancy and clean burning too.
Some test have shown it to be pushed slightly higher than published data with good results depending on the cartridge and setup.
I committed to an 8lb jug when I first found one available because of the balance between amount of powder used vs. yield vs. economy.
Now if we could get the 200 grain Gold Dots as components I'll be happy to roll my own @ 1225 FPS!
I neglected to ask if the 200gr Gold Dot bullets would be available as components. The Speer rep was pretty enthusiastic about their performance as an anti-bruin projectile or for woods use.
Hopefully somebody will gel test some in the near future.
If I see some locally I'll buy a box of them for documenting, but Cabelas and Bass Pro are 90 and 80 miles away respectfully...maybe Sportsman's Warehouse may get some which is closer...
I will place an order Shadow and have it delivered to my local store. We can put them through the paces!
Quote from: Intercooler on September 18 2017 04:57:21 PM MDT
I will place an order Shadow and have it delivered to my local store. We can put them through the paces!
Woo-hoo! :D
Sounds good IC, need to get a good look inside to be sure... ::)
Quote from: The_Shadow on September 18 2017 02:40:02 PM MDTNow if we could get the 200 grain Gold Dots as components I'll be happy to roll my own @ 1225 FPS!
+1
Except I was specifically thinking ~1350 FPS from a 6" barrel. :)
Quote from: REDLINE on September 24 2017 03:35:23 PM MDT
Except I was specifically thinking ~1350 FPS from a 6" barrel. :)
:o :o :o :o
.
Quote from: my_old_glock on September 26 2017 06:42:48 PM MDT
Quote from: REDLINE on September 24 2017 03:35:23 PM MDT
Except I was specifically thinking ~1350 FPS from a 6" barrel. :)
:o :o :o :o
Average gain from 5" to 6" at the ballistics by the inch website is 33 fps. The gain for the one 200 grain load was 41 fps from 5" to 6", but the average gain per inch for that load from 4" to 7" was 35 fps. If we accept 1200 fps as a SAAMI max, 1235-1241 fps is the extrapolated SAAMI max from a 6" barrel. 1350 is likely possible with a cast bullet though.
So I fired 40 rounds of this ammo through my Glock 20.
Let's just say that I was mildly disappointed. To me it felt maybe like Hornady ammo, or perhaps slightly less powerful. My shooting partner thought it was less than Hornady as well.
While I am glad Speer came out with such a load, I wish they would bump it up by 100 fps. On the positive side, it wasn't totally weak, and was certainly more powerful than the .40 cal ammo we were shooting out of a Glock 22.
It felt more or less like 45 +P to me.
i assume no malfunctions? How was accuracy out of your Glock?
I didn't notice much muzzle flash from my gun and recovery for follow up shots seemed pretty quick but I only fired @ 15 rounds out of my SR1911.
+P .45 will leave a pretty good mark. ;D
No malfunctions. Accuracy was fine, though I didn't bench rest it or anything. The quality was very good, as one would expect from Speer and their Gold Dot line. It just wasn't up to 10mm power.
Though I agree, 45 +P power isn't bad for defense. I know I wouldn't want to be hit with one.
Should not be that hard to achieve 1000fps in the 10mm with a 200gr. bullet with careful loading. I have some of the original Norma 10mm loadings. The 200gr has a velocity of 1200fps and the 170gr HP has 1300fps. I have shot these (though limited times) in my Colt Delta Gold Cup. I believe these original loadings by Norma were for the Bren Ten.
Handgunner
Speer says these are supposed to go 1,150fps. My antique Chrony says they around 1,120fps. Recoil and muzzle blash are mild for 10mm.
I'm looking forward to someone with better equipment chronographing these and shooting some gelatin with them.
Quote from: sqlbullet on September 27 2017 07:57:34 AM MDTQuote from: REDLINE on September 24 2017 03:35:23 PM MDTExcept I was specifically thinking ~1350 FPS from a 6" barrel. :)
Average gain from 5" to 6" at the ballistics by the inch website is 33 fps. The gain for the one 200 grain load was 41 fps from 5" to 6", but the average gain per inch for that load from 4" to 7" was 35 fps. If we accept 1200 fps as a SAAMI max, 1235-1241 fps is the extrapolated SAAMI max from a 6" barrel. 1350 is likely possible with a cast bullet though.
Yes and no. A specific powder I'm sure does hit 1200 fps at 37,500ish PSI with some 200gr bullet from a 5" barrel. And with some specific load(s) of some recipe I'm sure the ballistics by the inch results ring true. But I also believe there are at least a couple or so powders that will push a 200gr bullet closer to or just beyond 1250 fps from a 5" barrel when finally reaching 37,500ish PSI (this is pure speculation on my part).
This past weekend I worked up some 10mm loads in both my bone stock G20 (4.6" barrel) and bone stock G29 (3.78" barrel). And just for velocity curiosity I also checked the loads in my bone stock G20 except with a 6" Storm Lake barrel installed. For
MY bone stock Glocks I'm leaning toward the 2 following recipes barring further testing with a larger round count of each load:
200gr XTP / 9.6gr IMR 800-X / Federal GM150M / Brand New Starline Brass / COL = 1.245", and
180gr XTP / 11.2gr IMR 800-X / Federal GM150M / Brand New Starline Brass / COL = 1.245"
[DO NOT ATTEMPT THESE RECIPES IN YOUR GUN(S) WITHOUT WORKING UP TO THEM STARTING FROM 1 GRAIN LESS AND WORKING UP IN 2/10TH GRAIN INCREMENTS WHILE PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION TO PRESSURE SIGNS, ESPECIALLY GLOCK SMILES IF SHOOTING A GLOCK.]
In my guns primers were mildly flattened with both loads. All brass bulged to some extent in the bone stock glocks but not to a degree that alarmed me personally. There were no Glock Smiles until I went past both those loads.
The main things I'm wanting to point out are the difference in velocities for the different barrel lengths and what velocity I might be able to reach with 200gr Gold Dots in my G20 with a 6" barrel. All velocities listed are an average of 5 shots. Energy numbers added as general information for inquiring minds.
200XTP G29 = 1230 fps / 672 ft-lbs
200XTP G20 = 1254 fps / 698 ft-lbs
200XTP 6.0" = 1329 fps / 784 ft-lbs
180XTP G29 = 1380 fps / 761 ft-lbs
180XTP G20 = 1422 fps / 808 ft-lbs
180XTP 6.0" = 1528 fps / 933 ft-lbs
The 200XTP gained 24 fps in .82" more barrel, 75 fps in 1.4" more barrel, and 99 fps in 2.2" more barrel.
The 180XTP gained 42 fps in .82" more barrel, 106 fps in 1.4" more barrel, and 148 fps in 2.2" more barrel.
Loosely I would say the results of ballistics by the inch are in the ballpark of my results above. But I think there's a good chance I can push (probably over 37,500 PSI) 200gr Gold Dots at least very near 1350 fps in MY G20 with the 6" Storm Lake barrel installed without getting over-the-top crazy. YMMV ;)
Thanks Redline for your report, as 800X is a great powder with one exception...you must hand weight each and every charge. Never been a problem as I hand weigh everything anyway. Awhile back 800X got a reputation as being with what was termed pressure spikes.
This also coincides with the proliferation and use of the progressive press.
Your data mirrors mine fairly close as well as what others were doing using the IMR800X. With the 200 grain projectiles, I stopped at 9.4 grains as I felt it was gave great performance without worries with most brands of brass casings.
Here is the original 10mm data for the IMR 800X
OLDER IMR WARNING
This is some of the ORIGINAL IMR DATA that has been revised especially for IMR 800X
It is placed here for study, and comparison and preservation purposes...
Consider yourself properly WARNED!
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMRData.jpg)
I know some who have tried the 135 grain bullets with the load listed above that made 1800 fps and some had their guns damaged from casing blowouts. Therefore WARNINGS should be understood!
Here is the info from the UW pull-down back in 2012 (he has changed to a different powder since then)
Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Underwood 135gr Nosler JHP
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1600 fps
Muzzle Energy: 767 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: Star Line - Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.4880"/Dia. 0.400": Nosler 135gr. JHP
actual weight 135.2 grains
C.O.A.L.: 1.2520"
Primer: Brass color
Case: Diameter 0.4215" Crimp Diameter 0.4210" Length 0.9870"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: IMR800X 11.8 grains
Tested Velocity from my S&W1006 5" BBL 22lbs Recoil springs: 1738 fps
After the Shot
Case Data: expansion measurement's: Diameter 0.4325" "SMILED" 0.4295" primer blown out, no ejection, case stayed in the chamber but loose. This is one of the only cases I have ever gotten a SMILE from this pistol.
Please understand that this was my experience after I resized, re-expanded, reloaded as put that round back together to the same spec as taken apart...
I received mine today and will be Chrony testing them Sunday. The plan is to send a couple to The Shadow for pull-downs and The Chopping Block for his gel tests.
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22549959_1566341136737246_5315462019872437646_n.jpg?oh=ff51cca9c1aef2f39b663aadaf839779&oe=5A852376)
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22688444_1566341193403907_5335897708597695568_n.jpg?oh=970344befa403666a5b810afa08496ec&oe=5A786825)
Anyone Chronoed these from a Glock 29 yet? With Underwood 200gr the 29 loses about 100 fps vs a 5" barrel. So I'm guessing probably 1000 from a G29. That's still a respectable SD load, anemic, but respectable.
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 02 2017 09:16:02 AM MDT
Thanks Redline for your report, as 800X is a great powder with one exception...you must hand weight each and every charge. Never been a problem as I hand weigh everything anyway. Awhile back 800X got a reputation as being with what was termed pressure spikes.
This also coincides with the proliferation and use of the progressive press.
Thanks. That is good to know. I have been measuring each charge, but only because I was only loading a few test cartridges and I was too lazy to set up my progressive press.
.
Quote from: Intercooler on October 20 2017 05:48:32 PM MDTI received mine today and will be Chrony testing them Sunday. The plan is to send a couple to The Shadow for pull-downs and The Chopping Block for his gel tests.
Looking forward to the results, especially what speed you get from a Witness. Gonna test them through your hunter model too?
Quote from: my_old_glock on October 20 2017 07:26:16 PM MDTThanks. That is good to know. I have been measuring each charge, but only because I was only loading a few test cartridges and I was too lazy to set up my progressive press.
800X + Progressive Press = A fair chance of disaster especially when loading hot to begin with. I tried once setting up my progressive powder drop for 800X; the attempt ended in gross failure and I will never waste my time trying it again. It's crazy too, you can get 800X to throw perfect charge weights for over 30 attempts in a row and then all of a sudden BAM, a charge weight can be grossly over or under your desired charge weight.
By no means am I saying I don't like 800X. On the contrary, for top velocity in 10mm, especially with heavy bullets, it ranks #1 or tied to it. So for a few loads weighed one at a time by hand for hunting or whatever I'm all for it. I'll just never trust it with progressive loading equipment.
Yup! Running both barrel length Witness 10's. I didn't get to shoot all Summer. This will be a big session!
Always love how the Witness pistols shoot the 10's. Such fun and just great shooting ;)
EAA Limited Pro 4.75" barrel 1068, 1072, 1086. Average 1075.33 FPS/ 514 LBS
EAA Super Match 6" barrel 1128, 1100, 1096. Average 1108 FPS/ 545 LBS
Not real barn burners, but should work pretty well.
Quote from: Intercooler on October 22 2017 12:42:15 PM MDT
Always love how the Witness pistols shoot the 10's. Such fun and just great shooting ;)
EAA Limited Pro 4.75" barrel 1068, 1072, 1086. Average 1075.33 FPS/ 514 LBS
EAA Super Match 6" barrel 1128, 1100, 1096. Average 1108 FPS/ 545 LBS
Not real barn burners, but should work pretty well.
If we can only find someplace selling them for less than $1.50/round.
I'm curious how they'll do in gelatin but Speer seems to do a great job crafting bullets with little gold dots in the hollow point. :D
If we can talk Chopinbloc into running them :D
Intercooler The numbers seem a little on the low side, but they never really took the 10mm stuff to the upper limits either!
Getting a look inside will tell us even more to how they making what you saw... :-[
It would be nice to see them at the 1200 fps mark with a 5" barrel...
I also chronographed some of the Speer 200 GDHP loads this weekend:
Delta Elite 5" barrel - 1074, 1086, 1066, 1069, 1060 - 1071 fps av.
Glock 20 4.6" barrel - 1041, 1025, 1034, 1017, 1003 -1024 fps av.
I would have preferred more velocity.
In comparison, the Delta Elite averaged 1248 fps with SIG V-Crown 180 JHPs and 1297 fps with Federal Trophy Bonded 180 JSPs.
FWIW Our local Cabela's had five boxes of this today with the price decreased to $26.09 from $28.99.
WhooHoo! $1.30/rnd. :-*
These numbers came from my friends Glock 20, with the factory 200gr Gold Dots.
Average
1035 fps
476 ft/lbs
SGammo has them for 12.95 a box of 20.
Wow thanks. I like these a lot. I hope some gel tests of them pop up soon.
Actually 11.95 just picked up 9 boxes.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v_y0Fk5_qEA
Nice Video and consistent with other testing...I hope Speer decides to make them available as components soon!
An Underwood load would be nice for us non-reloaders.
Quote from: sgtbones on February 14 2018 11:06:10 AM MST
SGammo has them for 12.95 a box of 20.
$11 and change now.
So, it's more or less a .40 load?
Can you get just the bullet? If you could load a 200 grain Gold Dot at about 1200fps, that's be pretty scary!