Right now I have the 40sw barrel in my G29 and loaded with Uw 40sw 155 XTP. I've read too much about 10mm being too powerful for defensive use and looking bad to the jury.
Right now I'm carrying the same caliber the cops carry yet I trust the 10mm to stop the threat quicker.
IANAL but I played police for thirty plus years. 8)
It depends on:
The jurisdiction your shooting occured in
The prosecutor and his/her political lean or aspirations
The guy investigating
Media attention
Who you shoot, how much you shot him and was he a target or collateral damage
Powerful guns, custom guns, modified guns, handloads, hollow points, other juju aren't problems until they are needed to catch the shooter up for some reason. The fact that you modified your gun to use a caliber it wasn't designed to shoot by Herr Glock could become a point of contention if the moon and planets align.
Rick makes a great point here. The fact that your pistol when fired leaves behind a different cartridge than it was designed for......an assassin may place a 38 S&W in a 357 to throw off the investigation. Using a 40 in a 10mm could be looked on as slightly shady....just saying. If for some terrible reason you should have to go hot, you would leave 40brass. The police would logically look for a 40 firearm.......Did you use the 10mm to fool them.....casts some serious doubts in jurors minds.
You carry a 10mm feed it 10mm......there is a huge variety of bullet designs and weights to fit any situation you might find yourself in. I am of the mind that a little extra speed is good in a bullet.
Really? Even if I reduced the power?
Ok, I put the 10mm barrel back in and loaded it with Hornady 10mm 175 FlexLock instead of the Uw 10mm 200 XTP.
If you get involved in a shooting there will be teams of lawyers trying to make their point to a judge and jury. Probably at a criminal AND a civil trial. These guys if unchecked could make a S&W Mdl 10 with RNL ammo look heinous. But if you are in the right in a good community it will most probably not make it past the Grand Jury.
Avoid salacious ammo, carry reasonable rounds from a mainstream source in a reasonably stock gun. Be ready to explain any deviation or modification in reasonable terms. If you shoot your G-29 better in .40 then be ready to say so. Avoid sensational comments on social media. Our prosecutors aren't known for witch hunts, but don't go riding a broom and wearing a pointy hat for no good reason.
Several agencies use or have used the 10mm, mine was one. I live in a remote area with black bear, yotes and allegedly cougar. I frequently carry my .44 Mtn Gun, or did till I purchased my SR1911 in 10mm. Hornady factory 180gr XTPs at 1,200fps should work for aggressors of any species I might encounter.
Rick R makes great points.
If you shoot better with ammo at 40 S&W power levels, then find 10mm factory ammo that is loaded to that power level, rather than a caliber conversion barrel. But, this also does depend a lot on the jurisdiction in question.
Above all, think ahead and be ready to clearly articulate why you made the gear choices you did.
The other thing depends if you and your family survived the gunfight or not. We tend to put the cart before the horse as it makes better conversation. Far better to master the skill that will keep you and your family alive before sweating out the rest. If you and your family are dead the law does not matter. No doubt your opponents are hoping you are worrying about the legal issues instead of the survival ones.
I respectfully disagree with the above comments. Don't believe everything you read from AYOOB.
If you are legal to carry and it's a good shoot, it's good. End of story.
I'd suggest that someone carry what they can make fast and accurate hits with. A hit with a 380 will be more effective than a miss with a 10mm.
If we listened to Ayoob, we wouldn't carry a 10!
Where I live and work, I carry reloads. Another big "no-no" according to the risk averse.
If I were traveling through Illinois on I-80, I would probably make different selections.
However, Spudmeister and Soldier of The Law both echo what I have said here many times: First win the fight for your life! Carry what you can shoot well.
And, that advice is a little worthless without some idea what "shooting well" means in a defensive situation. I define it like this: El Presidente. Learn it, love it. Forces you to train two shots on target, transitions, reload and follow-up shots. If you can shoot this in 8-10 seconds you probably good. Have a timer, analyze your time to first shot, your splits, your transition times and your reload times.
Finally, add some stress. Get a shooting buddy and shoot dueling drills. A tree is nice, but even 6-10 clay pigeons, 3-5 each, works. First one to shoot all the pigeons wins. I remember well the first time I did this. In no-stress shooting I was outshooting the guy I was with on every shot. Groups at 15 yards to milk jugs at 100 yards. Then he said "Lets shoot some pigeons head to head at 5 yards". We set up six, three for me and three for him. I called start. He gets his first pigeon, my adrenaline surged and I shot all 15 rounds from my witness for two clay pigeons...at five yards!
I now own a dueling tree and rarely loose in head to head shooting. But it took time and practice to get to where that stress doesn't bother me.
Carry what you can shoot is definitely the best advice.
I deleted my last post as too wordy. ;D
IMHO Your social media content is more important than your gun /ammo choices in a post shooting environment. Don't rub testosterone over every post you make.
Carry the gun you like, get training, practice like a sqlbullet :P
I do like the El Presidente but prefer a drill with more movement. I'll do this drill monthly on a VTac target.
Start at the target. At the buzzer run to the 25yd line.
Fire 5 rds standing then 5 rds kneeling. SH 2H grip.
Sprint to the 15yd line and repeat.
Sprint to the 7yd line and fire 5 rds SH only then transfer to the OH and fire 5rds OH only.
Time plus misses=score.
A zone hits are +0
All other hits are +1 and misses are +5
I consistently score close to 40 using a G21G4.
We'll also load each other's mags with varying rounds and dummies or empty brass to facility condition 1 and 2 clearance drills.
Total live rounds needed for the drill is 30.
SotL, I'm 67 years old and disabled. I'm gonna have to skip all that. :-[
But don't worry I had practice with my G29. My groups stay inside 4".
Run an el presidente but start facing the target then. No movement needed beyond simple target transitions.
http://10mm-firearms.com/general-discussion/40-sw-deep-throat/
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The phrase "better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" comes to mind. I figure as long as the shooting is justified, it doesn't matter if you used a 10mm or a .44 magnum or even a 12 gauge shotgun slug. Even if it ever went to trial, a decent attorney would be able to get a number of expert witnesses that would be able to explain to the jury how most common handgun cartridges (9mm, .40, .45 ACP) are inadequate for stopping power against human aggressors. There are many documented instances where 9mm/.45 have failed to stop an attacker.
I carry my 1076 in the summer loaded with original Black Talons. Carry my 1026 in the winter loaded with Cor Bon DPX loads. Have all the trust with both rounds.
CRJ, here is a thread on the pull down Shadow did on the Black Talon, FYI.
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/winchester-black-talon-200gr-stx/
sqlbullet,
Good info there!
I wonder if we could lobby Winchester to make some 180gr @ 1,200ish fps loads using the bonded bullet from the Ranger T or PDX line? They seem pretty content to rest on their Silvertip laurels.
A while back I had checked with Mas Ayoob regarding the verdict in the Harold Fish case (Arizona). The contention was that Fish had been convicted of murder due to the fact that he was carrying a 10mm Kimber.
Mas, who was extremely familiar with the case, explained that the 10mm did have a small influence on the jury the way it was presented in trial. He further stated, however, that Fish had received a lousy defense form his attorneys, and this could have and should have been avoided.
And some might be unaware that Fish shot and killed an unarmed man, which can be a more difficult case to defend.
Fish did some time in jail, and his verdict was later overturned, setting him free.
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2009/07/21/fish-ordeal-%E2%80%93-over/
Rick R makes some important points.
For example in Kentucky, a person will face far different scrutiny in Louisville (Jefferson County) or Lexington (Fayette County) other things being equal, than they will in the other 118 counties in the state. Whereas handloaded, hollow points may be an issue in those two counties, it would probably even raise an eyebrow in the rural areas.
Another point, this one regarding handloaded ammo. The rationale for not carrying it is based upon the idea that ammo manufacturers retain samples by lot number that may be obtained by a competent defense team to duplicate ballistics and verify the defendant's claims or refute prosecutor's allegations.
Quote from: Rick R on September 04 2017 08:53:18 AM MDT
sqlbullet,
Good info there!
I wonder if we could lobby Winchester to make some 180gr @ 1,200ish fps loads using the bonded bullet from the Ranger T or PDX line? They seem pretty content to rest on their Silvertip laurels.
Midway had some 40S&W with Ranger T bullets for a low price (~$10) a long time ago. I was thinking about buying some and pulling the bullets to use in 10mm. It would have cost just as much as buying the bullets by themselves (if you could buy Ranger bullets).
No longer cheap ---> https://www.midwayusa.com/product/419246/winchester-ammunition-40-s-and-w-180-grain-bonded-hollow-point
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What happens if I carry my G29 loaded with Uw 9x25 Dillons? :o
If you shoot someone everything except their shoe soles will evaporate. It will take seven years for them to be declared to be "dead" and you have time to move elsewhere . 😆
If worried on power load with federal hydrashock 10 mm has like 420 lb energy I bought a box one time and was mad when I read balistic on them. I wanted power not a 40 smith
Well, one of the best things about the 10mm cartridge is its flexibility from Mild to Wild with its ballistic performance. There are loadings from 40S&W (FBI protocol) and upwards to the full potential that 10mm auto has to offer like Underwood, Double Tap, Buffalo Bore.
Quote from: Soldier of The Law on August 29 2017 07:49:25 PM MDT
I respectfully disagree with the above comments. Don't believe everything you read from AYOOB.
If you are legal to carry and it's a good shoot, it's good. End of story.
I'd suggest that someone carry what they can make fast and accurate hits with. A hit with a 380 will be more effective than a miss with a 10mm.
Totally agree with above ^^^^. If I'm ever involved in a deadly force encounter my weapon is a tool. I want the best tool for the task at hand. I don't really care what a lawyer tries to do. A prosecutor (criminal) is gonna a do what they do and a lawyer (civil) is gonna do what they do and attempt to make you look bad no matter what you do.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
IMMHO you are in deep doo doo if you're thinking you can claim self defense shooting someone at 25, 15 and even 7 yards. I would practice drawing and shooting a target at four to five feet, and even right at arms length in under 2 seconds.
This may not represent the scenario but the range, and conditions of the incident would more accurately reflect what you would most likely experience in a self defensive situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiqwF_Y9S5Q
Depends. Someone with an edged weapon that is rushing me is definitely going to be considered a reasonable threat I can engage when they pass buy 21' (7 yards). OTOH, someone standing still at 15' (5 yards) with a knife, but not drawing closer and allowing me to retreat is not.
In general, I agree that these distances indicate you better be pretty clear in your ability to articulate an immediate threat from which retreat was not reasonable or possible. The great room in my home is 40' wide and 25' deep, so if I am standing in the far corner I am almost 50' (18 yards) when an intruder clears the dining room and becomes visible. Inside my home they are a threat I can engage. In an open parking lot with cars between us, not so much.
Quote from: Olgo on August 28 2017 07:55:11 PM MDT
Really? Even if I reduced the power?
Ok, I put the 10mm barrel back in and loaded it with Hornady 10mm 175 FlexLock instead of the Uw 10mm 200 XTP.
That's what I carry. It's almost identical in speed from a G29 as the CD is from the G22. The Critical Duty performs marvelous from a G22. 14.5" of penetration in jello through heavy clothing and it also does great through car doors and windows.
If we aren't carry full steam Underwood, we are just getting full size 40 speed from a short barrel.
Like now I've put the 4.6" barrel away too. I don't carry it that way because it's not stock. So it's a. Novelty like my 9x25 barrel. I'll probably sell them both. I polished my stock barrel, but the only modification I have now is a LoneWolf 3.5 connector. Which is odd for me, I just haven't swapped it back.
I have yet to carry a full size 10MM pistol for EDC CCW, but I have carried the Glock 29 with 10MM ammo in it. I live in a rural area where cougars have been sighted, so I feel perfectly justified in carrying a 10MM pistol for self defense. ;)
The 10mm isn't "too powerful", it's a social cartridge so use it as such. Yes people hunt with it, but at it's core, it's meant for bipedal threats. As long as a shooting is justified, it's not likely to ever make any difference what you use ammo wise. Sure, some 10mm is more powerful than others, but relatively weak compared to something like a 44 Mag or 12ga shotgun. I like the 10mm because it's versatile but not for one second to I think it's too powerful for self defense use, that's just silly.
I'm a big fan of the 155gr and 180gr Hornady XTP factory loads, they're not max loads but they're potent enough with good controllability, which to me is an important factor in a concealed carry weapon. Speer also has a new 200gr Gold Dot rated at 1100 fps, which should be excellent as well.