I currently carry a Glock 20 loaded with Underwood 200 grain hard cast. I want to possibly switch to a Glock 21 in .45 Acp with 230 grain fmj. I don't like heavier bullet waits as i've had isses with key holing. I want to switch because I shoot the .45 slightly better and ammo is slightly easier to find. Inside of 50 yards will the .45 penetrate bears and hogs a good as 10mm? If not, how much of a difference is there. I realize that small and fast penetrates barriers better. And heavy penetrates flesh. I'm looking mainly at max penetration into bears and hogs and not anything else.
50 yards may be stretching things for the 45ACP... 10mm at 100 yards can still have more energy than a 45 at the muzzle!
Why do you shoot the 21 better than the 20? For all practical purposes they are identical except for caliber.
FMJ isn't a good choice for hunting, you would be better with hard cast lead but as Shadow says, you don't have the energy in 45 acp. Maybe if you stepped up to 460 Rowland (still a 45 caliber bullet)?
Your 20 will likely stop keyholing by changing to a standard rifling barrel. Hickok45 did a video on Glock 20 keyholing but it was with 230 grain lead, the 200 grain didn't keyhole. The Glock barrel would not stabilize the 230's.
Nick
If only life were that black and white. Answers and questions would be easier to deal with.
There is 10mm ammo and there is 10mm ammo. Underwood 200gr hard cast is running just as hard and fast as they can legitimately make it go. So you get max velocity, max penetration (or something close), max recoil and blast. It is a package deal that makes a G20 into all it can be based on your needs. BTW... if you search around this forum you'll find some helpful info on recoil springs that may improve your shooting.
If you want to bring the recoil & blast way down and still keep a lot of penetration you can get the Double Tap 200 gr hard cast load. It goes slower and if far easier to shoot well if the max loads are you issue. There are more choices but I'm familiar with the Double Tap. I just put some over my Chrono and it managed 1,124 fps in my OEM G20 (they claim 1,300 fps which is just silly).
IME it will be harder to find 45 acp ammo that fits your specs.... well... I suppose Underwood would have some +P stuff that would approach your needs but if you can get that you can get good 10mm ammo. Problem is you'll spend a lot of money and honestly end up with less gun than you have now. At least in the US, 10mm is not hard to find.
Good luck.
I use the 200 grain in my 20 now. I had issues with heavier loads. I want to stick with the stock barrel for reliability. I'm not hunting. I'm just using it for defense against bears and mountain lions. I shoot the 21 better because the recoil is more smooth.
Interesting. I fired the Doubletap 230 grain hardcast through my Gen 4 G20 without keyholing or reliability issues.
You could use lower powered loads than Underwood in the 10mm and still be way ahead of anything the 45 will do.
Federal 180 grain Trophy Bonded for a factory option, or a reload using the Cutting Edge 190 grain solid (copper) at around 1,100 fps or so...either of those will likely closely mimic the recoil of the 45 with stout loads.
Hickok45 did have some trouble with tumbling in a stock Glock barrel.
Glock barrels are not very consistent sometimes, one might work fine, the next won't...it could be blamed on bullet sizing, who knows...but he certainly did have trouble with tumbling, its on his video and clearly shown.
If all you want is penetration without the headaches of shooting lead, below is the answer to all your questions...
The Cutting Edge 190 grain HG solid...this one was recovered after impacting solid ground/slate rock at 1,275 fps, penetrated 16", they would likely end to end a pretty good sized hog or average black bear...a little pricey, but they're not meant to be range ammo.
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/DSC_0228.jpg1_zpsl4yr7cqc.jpg) (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/Ridgerunner665/media/DSC_0228.jpg1_zpsl4yr7cqc.jpg.html)
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/DSC_0239_zpsb9ijulb8.jpg) (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/Ridgerunner665/media/DSC_0239_zpsb9ijulb8.jpg.html)
Quote from: kreane on July 29 2017 02:53:18 PM MDT
... Inside of 50 yards will the .45 penetrate bears and hogs a good as 10mm? If not, how much of a difference is there?
NO, 45ACP will not penetrate bears or hogs as good as 10mm. It is better than nothing, but in general 45ACP FMJ is a bad choice. I have seen several news reports of 45ACP not penetrating a pitbull's skull. I think bears and hogs are tougher.
I do not know how much difference there is. Maybe half as good.
.
A few years back, a homeowner on the Kenai Peninsula here in Alaska, dispatched a brown bear in his yard with a 1911 chambered in .45 ACP. Last year, a guide up here killed a brownie with a 9mm shooting Buffalo Bore hardcast lead loads. (I bet he won't do that again)
You could add a stouter recoil spring to your current Glock 21 and shoot 45 Super out of it for more horsepower but the recoil will also increase. It's pretty hard to beat the 10mm for a woods carry load in an auto pistol. 357 Sig, 40 Super, 45 Super and 460 Rowland are other options. Some more limited than others.
If recoil is a problem, you could add some weight to your Glock 20. I put the following in my G40 to increase its weight, Thug Plug (3 oz), stainless RSA (1oz), Taylor Force brass weight (4 oz) added to the bottom of my magazine. A heavier pistol means less recoil. Conversely, if you handload, you could load some 200 grain hardcast down to a more comfortable recoil level.
Get a KKM barrel and load up some 45 super. A 255 gr bullet at 1025+ fps is nothing to sneeze at.
Bears have been killed by arrows but I for one have no interest in trying to accomplish the feat.
I've heard those 45acp failing to penetrate a dogs head urban legends as well. Which by the way, I find complete rediculous even out of 3" barrel.
I've killed large wild hogs with 45acp (out of 1911) utilizing head shots (230gr fmj) and it was damned effective. Never, ever seen 45acp bounce off the skull of even the largest boar.
With that stipulated; today when going out into the sticks hunting wild hogs or bears are thought to be present, I slide my Glock 20 (200gr XTP or 200gr hardcast in the pipe and in magazine) into the holster on my hip EVERYTIME. Having used both calibers, I feel more comfortable with the 10mm.
Quotefew years back, a homeowner on the Kenai Peninsula here in Alaska, dispatched a brown bear in his yard with a 1911 chambered in .45 ACP. Last year, a guide up here killed a brownie with a 9mm shooting Buffalo Bore hardcast lead loads. (I bet he won't do that again)
I read about that. The bear was less than 6 feet away when the 9mm probably went off like an M14. ;D Interesting read. It was on one the State Alaska websites. If penetration is the goal, look at the Lehigh Defense ammo. Underwood also loads some of their bullets but the bullets are barrier blind. The bullet will not recognize the hair on a bear where a HP bullet might get caught up in it and slowed enough to not perform function. The bullets are a machined solid and look like a Phillips screw driver.
FWIW, many years ago I went on my first Texas hog hunt using hog dogs. You need to be in REAL good shape to do this as you might have a few miles to run to keep up with the dogs. Well we managed to get a 500lb+ hog on the end of the dogs. This hog was big enough for 2 men to ride. My bud stepped up with a 44 mag and took a frontal head shot from maybe as much as 5 ft. Nothing happened. He followed up with 4 more shots and then the hog got mad and left with dogs hanging off of him. We trailed it about half a mile when the henty showed up with the truck. The 270 came out and the party was over. The 3 of us couldn't load the hog- too heavy so his ranch hands came back the next day and took it out in pieces. The 44 mag never penetrated the bone. The gun was loaded with Hornady 240gr HPs. Never saw much value in a HP bullet after that. I've dropped coyotes with 357s using plated, lead bullets and they generally don't take a step after the Pythons go off. Same using a 30 carbine pistol. HPs to me can be more of a problem than a cure.
Quote from: Trapper6L on October 04 2017 07:58:21 PM MDT
My bud stepped up with a 44 mag and took a frontal head shot from maybe as much as 5 ft. Nothing happened. He followed up with 4 more shots and then the hog got mad and left with dogs hanging off of him. We trailed it about half a mile when the henty showed up with the truck. The 270 came out and the party was over. The 3 of us couldn't load the hog- too heavy so his ranch hands came back the next day and took it out in pieces. The 44 mag never penetrated the bone. The gun was loaded with Hornady 240gr HPs.
Although I've killed dozens and dozens of wild hogs ranging from 50lbs up to 450lbs I'm not going to quibble with the experience you described.
I will however declare: I don't
ever want to meet a wild critter (from a Chipmunk to a Kodiak) that can shrug off one or more hits to the skull from a 44 magnum, 240gr projectile moving 1,400 ft. per second and an energy of 1,000 ft. lbs!
when a bullet hits a skull, the angle of the shot determines what will happen. I have slaughtered hogs using a .22 l.r. between the eyes and have seen a .357 mag.not penetrate from what looked like almost the same angle. when hog hunting, I usually try for the ear-hole shot as the bone there is not as thick and angled. of course a charging animal won't give you that shot but an open mouth gives good access to the spinal cord on a bear or lion. hogs don't try to bite you so you won't get that shot. as said above, arrows have killed plenty of bear, hogs and other large dangerous game. keep in mind that an arrow (or knife) will also penetrate a Kevlar vest that will stop a large bullet. an arrow works different than a bullet. I have also cleaned several large boars that had buck shot imbedded in the gristle shield and the hog was fine. you have to be close when using buckshot. also found arrow heads stuck in the vertebrae with no ill effects to the hog. hogs and bears are tough animals but they are not invincible. you just have to hit them in the right spot.
As was stated above...there is no free ride when it comes to penetration...to equal or even just come close to what a 10mm will do you are going to have to increase the recoil of the .45 ACP.
Besides bullet shape and construction one must also consider sectional density. The 200 grain 10mm bullet has the same SD as a 210 grain .41 bullet or a 225 grain .44 bullet. For a .45 to have the same SD it takes about 255 grains...
So if you want the same SD as a 10mm "bear load" try the Buffalo Bore 255 Outdoorsman. It is running in the mid-900s. Won't have the power of the 10mm at 2-300 fps faster but should get the job done...
Bob
how bout the thunder 50 for ultimate penetration: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/02/10/50-bmg-single-shot-handgun/
Quote from: Texashogman on October 06 2017 08:46:58 AM MDT
how bout the thunder 50 for ultimate penetration: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/02/10/50-bmg-single-shot-handgun/
The impressive thing about the video in that link is that the guy shoots it twice, and actually hits something the second time.
For years I didn't own a 44 mag. When I would shoot my friends it was always the same. Hit, miss, pause, pause, hit, hit ,hit, hit. That second shot I always jerked, then I calmed down and took my time.
I finally bought a redhawk in 44 mag, just to I could work on that issue.
Quote from: Rojo27 on October 04 2017 09:24:56 PM MDT
Quote from: Trapper6L on October 04 2017 07:58:21 PM MDT
My bud stepped up with a 44 mag and took a frontal head shot from maybe as much as 5 ft. Nothing happened. He followed up with 4 more shots and then the hog got mad and left with dogs hanging off of him. We trailed it about half a mile when the henty showed up with the truck. The 270 came out and the party was over. The 3 of us couldn't load the hog- too heavy so his ranch hands came back the next day and took it out in pieces. The 44 mag never penetrated the bone. The gun was loaded with Hornady 240gr HPs.
Although I've killed dozens and dozens of wild hogs ranging from 50lbs up to 450lbs I'm not going to quibble with the experience you described.
I will however declare: I don't ever want to meet a wild critter (from a Chipmunk to a Kodiak) that can shrug off one or more hits to the skull from a 44 magnum, 240gr projectile moving 1,400 ft. per second and an energy of 1,000 ft. lbs!
Had to be ammunition failure. Bad batch of ammo. Or the shooter has terrible aim. Or the story is a fabrication.
I've shot HUGE hogs with 10mm. One shot to the skull has dropped many a huge hog on my uncles ranch in Texas. And .44 is twice as powerful as 10mm.
Quote from: Rojo27 on October 04 2017 07:20:43 PM MDT
I've heard those 45acp failing to penetrate a dogs head urban legends as well. Which by the way, I find complete rediculous even out of 3" barrel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtAue-USGOc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_4A2SGsySI
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2125242/Kilo-pit-bull-dog-survives-shot-head-save-owner-Justin-Becker-home-invasion.html
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Pit-Bull-Shooting-Survival-Commercial-Township-Cumberland-County-New-Jersey-Dog--379049161.html
.
Quote from: Rojo27 on October 04 2017 09:24:56 PM MDT
Although I've killed dozens and dozens of wild hogs ranging from 50lbs up to 450lbs I'm not going to quibble with the experience you described.
I will however declare: I don't ever want to meet a wild critter (from a Chipmunk to a Kodiak) that can shrug off one or more hits to the skull from a 44 magnum, 240gr projectile moving 1,400 ft. per second and an energy of 1,000 ft. lbs!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cViXU8eXU94
.
Quote from: my_old_glock on October 15 2017 03:30:15 PM MDT
Quote from: Rojo27 on October 04 2017 07:20:43 PM MDT
I've heard those 45acp failing to penetrate a dogs head urban legends as well. Which by the way, I find complete rediculous even out of 3" barrel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtAue-USGOc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_4A2SGsySI
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2125242/Kilo-pit-bull-dog-survives-shot-head-save-owner-Justin-Becker-home-invasion.html
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Pit-Bull-Shooting-Survival-Commercial-Township-Cumberland-County-New-Jersey-Dog--379049161.html
Thanks for the interesting news links.
Here are some stories of people surviving head shots (even some from rifles) and one about a guy killing a 9 foot Grizzly with a 45...
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/17/history-flashback-soldier-shot-head-survived-decades/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2402160/Alyssa-Dudley-21-shot-twice-head-ex-boyfriend-SURVIVED.html
https://mindhacks.com/2012/06/09/a-shot-to-the-head/
We all know the story about Gabrielle Giffords surviving a shooting to the head from 9mm nearly point blank.
Numerous documented occurrences of people surviving suicide attempts after shooting themselves in the head with firearms up to 357 mag.
I've still dispatched several wild, feral hogs with 45acp out of a 1911.
Quote from: my_old_glock on October 15 2017 04:10:51 PM MDT
Quote from: Rojo27 on October 04 2017 09:24:56 PM MDT
Although I've killed dozens and dozens of wild hogs ranging from 50lbs up to 450lbs I'm not going to quibble with the experience you described.
I will however declare: I don't ever want to meet a wild critter (from a Chipmunk to a Kodiak) that can shrug off one or more hits to the skull from a 44 magnum, 240gr projectile moving 1,400 ft. per second and an energy of 1,000 ft. lbs!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cViXU8eXU94
.
Cool - Here is one of a couple of 44 mag hog kills:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IScbfcrQKu0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmzmouDZlvA
Here is a 44 mag used By Robert Peterson to kill a 14 foot Polar Bear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVW8MpaAwK0
In my career as a veterinarian, Ive seen many shot animals. One case a doberman shot by an officer on a drug raid. Dog was shot in the elbo witha 45 ACP hollow point. It did not exit the elbo. A rottweiler shot in the head from a few feet with a 12ga birdshot load. The angle on entrance suggested direct 90* to skull. Shotload deflected and partially exited at approximately 60*+. Dog survived. A lab shot in the head with a Muzzy type broadhead, this more easily deflected. Again dog survived. There are more variables than just bad load , bad bullet etc.
This recent thread expanded to include 357 mag, 44 mag & 454 Casull.....
Thought about that when reading this story concerning man using 44 magnum handgun on attacking Grizzly to save his adult son (10mm also gets mentioned).
Situation turned out very well all things considered.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/11/dean-weingarten/father-uses-taurus-44-magnum-revolver-shoot-grizzly-bear-attacking-son/
..and some moron told this guy that modern DA revolvers are not safe with a round under the hammer...cutting his ammo supply by 20%...
Quote from: RJM52 on November 03 2017 04:43:26 AM MDT
..and some moron told this guy that modern DA revolvers are not safe with a round under the hammer...cutting his ammo supply by 20%...
In fairness, the article says he was taught that 50 years ago. Probably by his grandfather or great uncle who handed him a not so modern revolver that did need to be carried with the hammer over the empty chamber.
So, the moron was the guy who didn't learn the capabilities of his personal defense gun before venturing into an area where he needed to defend his person.
Be very careful about going to a 255 grain bullet in a G21. You're going to have to change the barrel and be very precise about your business of loading cartridges. I have seen several KB's with the 21 and lead bullets.
I'm not sure what the end game is here switching from the 10mm to the .45. Are you tired of chasing brass? Are you tired of recoil? You're stepping backwards decidedly by going to the .45. You're losing capacity, power, range, and coolness. I don't feel like there is anything to be gained by using the .45 ACP. If it were me I'd just buy a .40 S&W conversion barrel of decent quality and call it a day.
I will second the looksie into Lehigh defense ammo. I load their 140 gr penetrator to 1450 fps (G20sf w/6" storm lake bbl).
That load will go through level IIIa body armor, 4" bulletproof glass, and about 30" of ballistic gel. So, it it's penetration you want, there's your projectile.
See some of the you tube videos testing this bullet for reference.
Sep, you must be talking about Phil Shoemaker and the brownie that threatened his fishing clients.
Here is a test I did with the .45 ACP in Clear Gel using a 230gr Winchester ball, a 230gr ball handload, and a 200gr Xtreme penetrators. The 230gr ball loads both penetrated deeper than the Lehigh Xtreme.
I plan on doing some 10mm and .45 using the 190gr and 200gr Cutting Edge bullets soon.
http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/https-generalcartridge-files-wordpress-com-2017-08-zt3pah3-jpg-w-1374
Quote from: 5pins on April 04 2018 02:31:19 PM MDT
Here is a test I did with the .45 ACP in Clear Gel using a 230gr Winchester ball, a 230gr ball handload, and a 200gr Xtreme penetrators. The 230gr ball loads both penetrated deeper than the Lehigh Xtreme.
I plan on doing some 10mm and .45 using the 190gr and 200gr Cutting Edge bullets soon.
http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/https-generalcartridge-files-wordpress-com-2017-08-zt3pah3-jpg-w-1374
Interesting results. Perhaps the "flutes" in the Lehigh bullet tend to slow it down some.
Quote from: 5pins on April 04 2018 02:31:19 PM MDT
Here is a test I did with the .45 ACP in Clear Gel using a 230gr Winchester ball, a 230gr ball handload, and a 200gr Xtreme penetrators. The 230gr ball loads both penetrated deeper than the Lehigh Xtreme.
I plan on doing some 10mm and .45 using the 190gr and 200gr Cutting Edge bullets soon.
http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/https-generalcartridge-files-wordpress-com-2017-08-zt3pah3-jpg-w-1374
Thanks 5pins! Appreciate you sharing your tests. Been watching your stuff on AR15 & your Blog... Keep it up!!
By the way.... You've done some testing Winchester 127gr +p+Ranger T, & 147gr Black Talon, and a couple other Winchester white box jhp (and several others).... I'd be super interested in Winchester 147gr Ranger T out of short and longer length barrels... I'd be happy to send you enough for a test if you'd consider running it on them. Just PM me an address if you're interested.
Thanks again for sharing your tests.
PS.. Your results on the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator not super surprising. Kentucky Ballistics shot 10mm 140gr Xtreme Penetrator by Underwood, zipping along at reported 1500fps into clear ballistics gel and got between 27" and 29" on two different shots.
I was going to try out the Lehigh Xtreme penetrator in 10mm until I saw Kentucky ballistics and The Chopping Blocks test of them.
Like 4949 mentioned, I think the flutes may actually reduce penetration.
The Cutting Edge bullets I ordered should come in tomorrow so hopefully, I can load some up this weekend. If possible I will try to shoot them next week.
Thanks for the offer on the ammo but I already have a bunch of stuff I want to try out.
That is the idea of the flutes...They deliver energy to the target that a FMJ round nose won't....Energy that come from the velocity budget and reduces penetration.
I think the idea is it will penetrate hard barriers better than a traditional JHP, while still delivering more tissue damage than an FMJ, not that it out-penetrates an FMJ.
semi wadcutter bullets are better than round nose bullets for hunting or woods defense. they penetrate deep and cut a caliber sized hole through flesh & bone. before I got my 10mm , I carried my .45 acp loaded with 200 gr. LSWC bullets and a max. charge of Unique. I would load SWC bullets for my 10 mm if I could find them. at least the 10mm solids have a flat meplat to transfer energy better than a plain round nose bullet.
Kreane asked about using the .45 ACP instead of the 10mm for penetration and for bears/ hogs, so here we are.
The cartridge on your left is a .45 ACP loaded with a 200gr Cutting Edge HG Solid. The cartridge in the middle is a .45 ACP loaded with a 200gr Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator, and the cartridge on the right is a 10mm loaded with a 190gr Cutting Edge HG Solid.
As always, I'm what you call a professional so don't try this at home. LOL.
(https://i.imgur.com/QdSTDYSl.jpg?1)
:P Hilarious! Gotta dig the Paul Harrell tie in! Now after each and every shot if you would be so kind as to come to a complete stop, lower the firearm and turn 180 degrees to the camera to announce the velocity. Then take the time to turn back raise the firearm; aim; fire & repeat whole process 5 or six times for each load being tested you'd be an extra special professional too.
Looking forward to your results.
5pins...do you know yet what the velocity is or that will be determined when you shoot the gel...any approximates?
My guess is that since the 190 10mm has greater sectional density and probably velocity than the 200 grain .45s it is going to penetrate further...
If you are testing with a gel block I would have some water jugs and maybe a box of rags rags behind it...
Bob
Quote from: RJM52 on April 06 2018 06:25:43 PM MDT
5pins...do you know yet what the velocity is or that will be determined when you shoot the gel...any approximates?
My guess is that since the 190 10mm has greater sectional density and probably velocity than the 200 grain .45s it is going to penetrate further...
If you are testing with a gel block I would have some water jugs and maybe a box of rags rags behind it...
Bob
The CE HG solid in the .45 should be doing about 1000fps. I used the same load charge (8.1gr Longshot) that I use in the Lehigh XP when I shot them previously. I'm not sure about the 10mm CE. I used 8.5gr of Longshot so I'm guessing about 1100, but is a starting load and I plan on increasing it. I will run them through the chrony also.
About 5 years ago I converted my Glock 20 10mm to .460 Rowland by mounting a long slide with 6.6" barrel and LWD comp and testing Underwood's entire lineup. Since that time My 10mm handguns have become safe queens, and I sold my Desert Eagle .44. They no longer make sense compared to the .460R. Underwood 185 gr XTP from the 34 oz G460R clocked 1,700 fps compared to 180 gr PMC .44 mag going 1,584 fps from the 72 oz DE. I've since added a 1911 pattern Clark .460R conversion that is a pure joy to shoot and 100% reliable! I've put several hundred handloads through both pistols and they never fail to impress. No point in pushing a 10mm when I can best it with ease with bullets up to 275 gr Hunter's HC, or Lehigh Defense 120 gr XD at a measured 2,013 fps from the big Glock! My "mild" handloads are 185 gr RN at 1,400, and 230 gr RN at 1,300, which both guns digest without a hitch. I can empty 8 rounds from my 1911 .460R as fast as shooting std .45 Auto from an unmodified gun, yet my 8 are carrying around 950 fpe per shot.
Anyone SERIOUS about making power from the 1911 platform should be talking .460 Rowland. 10mm who? What?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Riveting yarn about the 460 Rowland. Sounds like your next step is 500 S&W magnum.
Personally speaking, I'll stay in the 45 & 10mm range for woods defense and hunting with semi-auto pistols and turn to the rifles if I need to get past those levels of performances. However, wish you luck with your toys.
I had a chance to run Cutting Edge bullets through the chronograph today, but had mixed results.
With the 10mm, the starting load was showing signs of pressure with slightly flat primers and smiley faces. The average velocity was 1135fps with a high of 1151fps and a low of 1126fps. This is through a Delta Elite. I'm either going to have to find another powder or drop the charge. One thing I noticed was that my firing pin hits were a little off center so I may have other issues going on.
The .45 was another story. I got an average of 927fps with a high of 939fps and a low of 918fps. This was the same load I use with the Lehigh bullet, but it makes since that the velocity would be lower since the CE bullet is shorter leaving more case space. No signs of pressure so I can definitely go up. I think I will try 8.3 and see what happens. This is through a Colt 1991.
Tried some new loads through the chorography this morning. I increased the .45 charge to 8.3gr of longshot and got 968fps average, 996fps high and 943fps low. Still no sign of pressure. I'm going to try 8.5fps next.
With the 10mm, things are getting stranger. I reduced the load to 8.3gr of longshot, just like the .45, but got an increase of velocity to an average 1160fps. I'm still showing signs of over pressure, maybe even more.
Better success today. First off the .45ACP. I increased the powder charge to 8.5gr and got an average velocity of 1024fpswith a high of 1044fps and a low of 1012fps. Still no sign of pressure. A little surprising since it's way over the book load of 8.1gr for the .45 Super but the case looks like a factory +P at the most.
I dropped the 10mm down to 8.0gr and got an average velocity of 1102fps a high of 1121fps and a low of 1077fps. Still showing signs of pressure but not as much. I will load two more up with this load to shoot in gel but that will be it until some different brass and maybe a new recoil spring.
I should be able to shoot these in gel Friday.
Looking forward to the gel results..
Appreciate your efforts 5pins!!!
Had a chance to shoot them through the gel this morning. Very impressive results.
The 190gr Cutting Edge 10mm bullets went the farthest. The first round had a velocity of 1104fps and penetrated the first three 16 inch blocks and stopped two and a quarter inches into the forth for a total penetration of 50.25 inches of gel. The second bullet hit the gel at 1118fps and had a total penetration of 52.75 inches. The brass showed very little signs of pressure, so I would consider this load very safe for a Colt DE. I will probably take the bullets I have left and load them with this load.
The CE .45 bullets were also impressive. First round had a velocity of 1025fps and penetrated to 41.75 inches. Number two hit at 1052fps and penetrated to 42.25 inches. I consider these very good results for a .45 ACP.
The wound tracks, for both the 10mm and .45, were straight with no deviation.
If you compare this with the other .45 test I did with the 230gr ball and the Lehigh I did earlier it is much better. The Lehigh I tried only penetrated to 23 inches at 1004fps and my 230gr FMJ handload did 38.5 at 1000fps.
Very nice report 5pins... 8)
Thanks for the report 5pins. Does anyone load these 190 grain bullets?
Here are some picks of the bullets.
10mm 190gr
(http://i.imgur.com/qzRqVExm.jpg?1) (https://imgur.com/qzRqVEx)
.45 200gr
(http://i.imgur.com/MnqAYVfm.jpg?1) (https://imgur.com/MnqAYVf)
Are they copper solids?
Quote from: 4949shooter on April 13 2018 03:19:54 PM MDT
Thanks for the report 5pins. Does anyone load these 190 grain bullets?
Not that I know of.
I just posted a more in-depth review on my blog.
http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/cutting-edge-10mm-and-45-hg-solid-bullets (http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/cutting-edge-10mm-and-45-hg-solid-bullets)
Great review!!! Thanks!
5pins, what powder did you use for the velocity seen for 10mm 1118fps & 45 ACP 1052fps? ???
Quote from: The_Shadow on April 28 2018 12:53:58 PM MDT
5pins, what powder did you use for the velocity seen for 10mm 1118fps & 45 ACP 1052fps? ???
Longshot.
Thanks for doing the research, 5pins. I am going to see how my Montana 20-grain WFNs perform over Blue Dot. If they disappoint, I may look into the CEB 190s for a hunting load. Still trying to figure out why you got early and significant pressure signs. I wonder if CEB went to multiple narrow drive bands they would reduce pressure -- as Barnes learned with its TSX bullets. Seems one way around the pressure issues often associated with monometal bullets.
Quote from: Soulezoo on January 31 2018 09:59:31 AM MST
I will second the looksie into Lehigh defense ammo. I load their 140 gr penetrator to 1450 fps (G20sf w/6" storm lake bbl).
That load will go through level IIIa body armor, 4" bulletproof glass, and about 30" of ballistic gel. So, it it's penetration you want, there's your projectile.
See some of the you tube videos testing this bullet for reference.
Trust me on this one The Lehigh Defense ammo from Underwood is the "ultimate bad-boy" when it comes to accomplishing the task at hand. "Ruining someone's day" or harvesting game in the field, Underwood's Lehigh loads will "finish the task".
I picked up some of Underwood's 120 Grain Xtreme Defender 45 auto sometime ago, and might do ok, but yea, UW's 10mm 200, or 220gr hard cast is what want for big mean critters
New to forum. Old to this discussion. Best question to ask is what do you feel you are most capable with and what will be the duty of your firearm. I personally load the old ACP with a stiff load of 800x behind a 255gr Hunter Supply SWC. It rattled my metal targets just as hard as the 10mm with nuke loads of 180s. The numbers are just that, for comparing on paper. The animals don't know the difference between the two when the bullet smacks them in the boilermaker. That being said, know your purpose with the firearm and practice, practice, practice.
Quote from: WideflatnoseGC on December 25 2018 06:19:11 PM MST
New to forum. Old to this discussion. Best question to ask is what do you feel you are most capable with and what will be the duty of your firearm. I personally load the old ACP with a stiff load of 800x behind a 255gr Hunter Supply SWC. It rattled my metal targets just as hard as the 10mm with nuke loads of 180s. The numbers are just that, for comparing on paper. The animals don't know the difference between the two when the bullet smacks them in the boilermaker. That being said, know your purpose with the firearm and practice, practice, practice.
What kind of velocity you getting with that load?
Quote from: Rojo27 on October 04 2017 07:20:43 PM MDT
Bears have been killed by arrows but I for one have no interest in trying to accomplish the feat.
I've heard those 45acp failing to penetrate a dogs head urban legends as well. Which by the way, I find complete rediculous even out of 3" barrel.
::::Terminal ballistics dont always follow the "rules" of logic and intuition.I knew of a gentleman who had some differences with his wife's social behavior and when informed of his displeasure she shot him in the head at a distance of inches of inches. Although it was a 25 auto it was still a potential lethal weapon. the little bullet didnt dig in well and skidded 6 or 7 inches around his skull under the skin. And as goes the urban legend it really pizzd him off. In my next to last career I got to treat a number of animals that had been shot. One a Doberman was shot by an LEO who wa not a particularly good shot and was a bit "jumpy', perhaps with good reason. The 45ACP 185 hollow point + something hit the dog in the rt elbow, shattered the joint, disintegrated and failed to exit. I was able to save the leg but not the joint. The next case was a dispute between "neighbors" where the dog caught most of the animosity between the two. The big Rottweiler was shot in the head, left of center, destroying the eye and all the muscles of mastication, some of the ear structure and any other incidentals in the way. In the mess that resulted it became evident that the skull had taken a lot of the impact of the duck load but had not fractured(as far as could be determined) or penetrated.
All three cases pretty much defy logic but such is nature of terminal ballistics. Repeating these results on demand might jst result in a lot of frustration. A bullet bouncing off a pit bulls head, quite possible, bouncing off a bears skull more likely still.
These cases are probably the rational of flat pointed bullets for dangerous game.