I don't personally think it is the un-ramped barrel. See other recent threads. The Delta Elite will handle a proof load just fine, just don't count on the brass being usable after. And in spec ammo will run just fine.
The real problem I see is the general lack of value. I was just browsing Gunbroker, thinking of what I might add to the 10mm stable next. I noticed a couple of things. Among them that the Sig P220 DA/SA Lipseys specials are going for $1,050.00-$1,250.00. Or one of the Sig Tac Ops 1911 10mm's. Or a used Dan Wesson if you shop hard.
I had a DE years ago. I miss it. I was a fine gun. I bought it new in box in 1993 for $350.00-$400.00, and I think that was a pretty good value for a 10mm at the time. There weren't a lot of other options in 10mm at the time. According to inflation calculators, that is about $575.00-$675.00 in todays buying power.
But today, there are lots of solid options in the 10mm market. Lost of options I think have better value than the Delta Elite. I could recommend a Delta Elite over a RIA at $700.00. I would definitely say get the Colt over the RIA at $650.
But I don't see picking the Delta Elite over the Sig options. And I don't see it realistically as much better than the Armscor guns of today.
And that is the real issue I see with the Delta Elite today.
I have to believe some of the ammo we have documented has been loaded over the actual SAAMI established MAP.
Why do I say this? Even as I had question companies like UW who said all of his ammo was within SAAMI spec and in talks with Mike of SF who was actually testing ammo in a homemade pressure testing barrel he himself made said some of his was just outside or at the upper numbers allowable, both had ammo that went out the doors that caused casing ruptures in various guns to include the Colt Delta Elite.
Warnings such as only use in FULLY SUPPORTED CHAMBERS had been printed on the ammo box or in their online specs.
To get the numbers that their ammo provided, the documentations have shown the loadings to be beyond the actually published data. Many of us tested these loads in our own guns as setups and each firearm is different. We have seen differences in the actual amount of powder that actually dropped into a particular casing.
Bores for the DE's has been shown @ 0.3990", Tighter than some of the other makes. Yes the support was somewhat lacking, these heavy loadings started to exceed the brass alloy strength and bulges occurred. Guns that experienced the bulging, seem to have exceeded that of the areas unsupported, like the expansion was pushing or wedging the case further out of battery. Also swing links were sometimes out of tolerance as shipped. Recoil systems may have been exceeded by ammo that ran above the rated pressures.
When you consider your own firearm, all things need to be taken into account. Barrel's actual bore dia., roughness, Bullet dia. and fit in that bore. Bullet's construction and gilding metal itself. Amount of lube in a bore can and does affect pressures.
Recoil systems or other factors like slide mass, main springs, etc. NO TWO ARE EXACTLY ALIKE!
One of the benefits of handloaders is that we can sneak up on the documented loadings, while observing how our own guns handle the loads tested...with new and used casings as they are made on our own dies. ::)
Quote from: sqlbullet on May 19 2017 08:20:50 PM MDTThe Delta Elite will handle a proof load just fine...
Where do you have that information from?
There is a Delta Elite down at my LGS. It is tempting to say the least.
There is also a Kimber TLE in 10mm.
But the unramped / less supported barrel has been keeping me from the DE thus far. Even though I have heard from more than one source the Underwood ammo has been fine with it.
For the money kimber Sig Colt in that order. You get better barrels and night sights plus the Sig comes with 4 magazines and if you look online the kimbers are selling g for 899$ ish
I have a Sig tacops 10mm & a Delta elite (and several other 10mm's)
I love the Sig and it is what I usually grab first when going out back. With that said it had problems out of the box and had to go back to Sig.(runs fine now) If you compare the Sig and the colt the Sig has more "flash" about it and a slightly better slide to frame fit. The Colt has better quality small parts. I'm not saying mim parts are horrible ( some might) but imo certain parts should not be. As in Sig has a mim slide stop and the Colt has a bar stock slide stop. My tacops now has a Harrison slide stop as that happens to be a part that I personally don't think should be a cheaper mim part. Just one example of why I feel the Delta elite has great value and especially at or under $1,000.
They are both very accurate and a pleasure to shoot and that includes plenty of UNDERWOOD through through the Delta !
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Quote from: REDLINE on May 20 2017 01:08:48 AM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on May 19 2017 08:20:50 PM MDTThe Delta Elite will handle a proof load just fine...
Where do you have that information from?
http://rangehot.com/case-head-support-colt-delta-elite/
This is the first hit I get that says they will handle a proof load. It does indicate it will trash the brass though.
Thanks
And that is 1911Tuner.... He knows a thing or 2 about 1911's, and guns in general... Haven't personally met him, but have chatted with him a good bit in years past, I learned a great deal from him about 1911 timing (and pistol timing in general)... He's not just your average gun rag writer.
Quote from: Ridgerunner665 on May 23 2017 05:02:56 PM MDT
And that is 1911Tuner.... He knows a thing or 2 about 1911's
That is a HUGE understatement. ;D
I actually didn't realize he was the author when I posted the link and was a little hesitant about it since the article itself wasn't better documented. Now I am very confident given who the author is.
I posted this over on the article from the link above;
I had asked in the past, companies like Underwood Ammo in particular, about the pressures from their ammo and their statements have been that their ammo is within SAAMI Spec. For all practical purposes this is what SAAMI 205 has set for the 10mm.
Example of 205 10mm pressure MAP
The specific loads of the test have to fit the MAP set by SAAMI.
Here is a typical MAP as set by SAAMI
Nominal Mean Instrument @ 15 feet with =/-90 fps from test barrel
Maximum Average pressure MAP of 37500 psi
Maximum Portable Lot Mean MPLM of 38700 psi
Maximum Portable Sample Mean MPSM of 40500 psi
The ammunition in test (10 rounds) would need to fit this established profile.
Nothing in the sample over 40500 psi.
PROOF PRESSURE
Proof Pressures for 10mm are 130% minimum and 140% maximum as set by SAAMI
The formula is based on the Maximum Portable Lot Mean MPLM of 38,700 psi
38,700 x 1.30 = 50,310 psi and 38,700 x 1.40 = 54,180 psi
Minimum and Maximum
50,310 psi - 54,180 psi these would be rounded to 50,500 psi - 54,000 psi
Why did I ask these questions?
Doing the pull-down documentations have shown powder charges that exceed the published data that shows pressures below the 37,500 psi values.
We know that, people can and do make mistakes for whatever reason while loading their own ammo and that may or my not lead to problems.
Also the question of the strength of the brass comes into play. Malleability and alloy are the very important to a cartridge case. The stamping and production processes when brass casings are being made can be crucial to longevity and reuse.
New Starline cases are usually softer as made with handloaders in mind, so they will not work harden as quickly. Other brands from factory ammo have been questionable for reuse. Things like SMILES, Fatigue, stress fractures have have been seen with the first firing of commercial ammo. Anyone who intends to handload accepts the risk and the important task of case inspection and preparations.
Quote from: Ridgerunner665 on May 23 2017 05:02:56 PM MDT
And that is 1911Tuner.... He knows a thing or 2 about 1911's, and guns in general... Haven't personally met him, but have chatted with him a good bit in years past, I learned a great deal from him about 1911 timing (and pistol timing in general)... He's not just your average gun rag writer.
He lives near me. He fixed one of my 1911 problems with a single PM. That guy is a wealth of gun knowledge and probably forgotten more than most of us will ever know.
Quote from: The_Shadow on May 24 2017 03:17:34 PM MDT...this is what SAAMI 205 has set for the 10mm.
What does "205" reference?
Quote from: REDLINE on May 25 2017 06:21:54 AM MDT
Quote from: The_Shadow on May 24 2017 03:17:34 PM MDT...this is what SAAMI 205 has set for the 10mm.
What does "205" reference?
It is the SAAMI Publication number for specifications and pressure
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf)
So, reading Patrick Sweeney's book "1911, The First 100 Years" and he is describing his walkthrough of the Colt factory 1911 lines. He has a couple of paragraphs on how barrels are made.
This was in one of them:
"Then Henry, the operator, fires a proof round in each barrel. So, even if you buy a replacement Colt barrel, it has been proofed" Pg 127
I ignored the naysayers when I sought and purchased a Delta Elite. Pictures are posted in my thread "new to me Delta Elite" if you like gun porn.
I'll begin with PPU ammo and step up to Sig, hopefully tomorrow morning when it's half price shooting at my local indoor range. I'll also be comparing the DE to a Rock Ultra that I shot last Friday.
I will be reloading soon, only need to pick up powder and I've decided on AA9. I have 100 each of 200 and 230 grain WFNGC boolits and will pick up some 180 grain XTP when I get powder.
I probably won't bother with Underwood or Doubletap ammo, just to be on the safe side.
I bought a DE about 5 years ago. I just always wanted one. Shoots great and it a lot of fun. But it isn't my carry.
My DE is a great gun and quite accurate with some of the loads I've worked up. I don't shoot max loads regularly especially after reading the various posts about DE lacking in terms of chamber support compared to later models. I bought it used and have no idea of it's history. What are the signs of over pressure and excessive wear that I should look for??
Thank you in advance.
Overpressure = smiled brass
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/bulging_case-tfb.jpg)
Excessive wear = myth IMHO.
Here is why I say that second part. Colt frames and slides are hella strong.
Early on Colt had some issues with Delta Elite frames cracking in the thin part of the rail above the slide stop tab port, or the hole in the frame that the slide stop lever goes through to reach the magazine. Go ahead, take you gun apart and look for it. I will wait.
You are probably confused now, having taken your gun apart and found just a square notch cut through the frame rail and into the frame. See, Colt solved the "problem" by just removing ALL the metal from the rail in the area where it might crack. You can't crack what's not there. And forged Colt frames are so over-built the little section of metal is completely not needed.
Same goes for the slide. Lots of guys insist that unless you put in a 24 lb recoil spring, shok-buff and a flat bottom firing pin stop then say good-bye to your slide. Except, I can't find any common, repeatable examples of this actually happening to 1911 slides. If someone here can document this happening across several high round count guns, I would be glad to see it.
If your 1911 frame or slide are getting damaged by firing, then the frame or slide are defective.
Further anecdote...Ever wonder why the 1911 was/is so popular in IPSC? The 1911 had no greater aftermarket support at the start than most other auto-loading handguns.
It had two advantages.
First, but not as significant, there were lots of cheap surplus ones to use as the basis of a build. And a build was needed due to the rules of IPSC, since malfunctions were your problem. No alibis like in Bullseye.
Second, and this was the big one, the 1911 is extremely durable. If you are going to spend 3-4-5,000 dollars to make a gun dead nuts accurate and reliable, you want your investment to LAST. And a 1911 will stand up 25K rounds a year for a long time. Most other platforms of the time would not. To be honest, lots of platforms today won't.
The Delta Elite is a great little gun. I would have no worries about using it, and even abusing it if you need to. Oh, and if a case does let go in your DE, here is what you can expect:
1. You may be blind unless you are wearing good shooting glasses. Then you will be fine, except a few spots on your cheeks that will heal fast. All the gear, all the time.
2. Magazine will be toast. Just write it off and get another. They are relatively cheap.
3. Grips might need replaced. Usually not, but check them out to be sure.
4. Magazine catch also might need some help. Again, probably not, but check it thoroughly.
Go over the rest of the gun carefully, but it is really, really rare of a K-B to harm a 1911 beyond the magazine, grips and mag catch. See my comments about IPSC above. Those guys blew lots of case heads making major in 38 super. In fact, the peppering you face gets from ejecta coming out the back of the slide/frame/ejector gaps is actually called "super face".
I had my DE redone to accommodate a ramped barrel. It's a great idea. I have a really strong recoil spring and a gently radiused FP stop. I have thrown some screw up loads through the gun by accident and it giggled after the roar and wished me luck finding the brass. It's tough. I like it. It hits hard. I just got the FCD to finish the ammo. Life is excellent.
I have had my Colt DE SS since 1987. It has had a minimum of 8K-10K rounds through it. Carried it on duty for 11 years. I have replaced the recoil springs several times and just last year I replaced all the springs in the gun as well as all my magazines. I have not shot any Underwood in it but it has had a steady diet of original 170gr Norma HP and 165gr DT through it over the last 30 years. I did have to go with a FL guide rod due to not being able to get any more of the "disposable" factory polymer guide rods and double spring setup. I thought about replacing my long since inoperative night sights but since I no longer carry it I will just leave them alone.