Do you guys think they penetrate deep enough to be a good SD round? Obviously over penetration won't be an issue (missed shots always an issue), but I think TNoutdoors got something like 11" through denim.
Other Underwood loads in 10mm Im considering is:
155 XTP
165 Gold Dot
My quest for that perfect match goes on
More of my opinions, :))
I wouldn't carry Underwood full power loads for self defense, for a few reasons.
(1) They're not needed...too much of a good thing for the intended use.
(2) More recoil than necessary, slowing followup shots, that are often needed in SD situations.
(3) The ammo could, possibly, be used against you in court.
If I were carrying a 10mm, of any kind, I'm pretty sure I'd load it with Winchester 175 Silvertips.
I'm not knocking Underwood, not at all, I'm sure its all very good stuff....its just not what I'd carry for defense against humans, we're not that hard to kill.
Im actually currently carrying Sig 180s that get 1180ish from my 29. I also like Hornady Critical Duty 175, they came in around 1080. That's 100fps faster than a Glock 22 with Hornady 175 CD. So I figure the problems some 40s have with not expanding, is solved here with extra speed.
The 357 Mag 125 grain JHP loads at 1400-1500 fps scored the best in the Marshall and Sanow reports ( which are kinda bunk, but more on that in a minute). To scale that load "up" to 10mm, we need to look at the sectional density of the 125 grain bullet, which is .140. A 155 grain 10mm is a .138 SD, and the Underwood load is 1500 fps.
So, it is reasonable to assume that this load would mimic the terminal penetration performance of the 125 grain 357 load in a comparably constructed JHP bullet. It is also reasonable to assume that overall terminal performance would be a bit better since it is larger in diameter, and delivers a bit more terminal energy budget.
Free recoil will probably be very close to a wash. The 10mm load would generate more "raw" recoil, but a Glock 29 will weigh more than a scandium 357 mag. However, if your 357 would be a 6.5" S&W N Frame 28-2, that story changes.
So, all in all, I would take 155 grains over 135 grains. But, I have loaded up 135's before for the home gun. My wife shoots them better since they recoil a bit less at full power.
Which brings us to the bunk I was going to discuss later.
Buy a box of 135's, 155's and Silvertips. Get a timer and go run all the ammo on the timer in Bill Drills. Run them at 1,2,4,7,10,15 and 25 yards. That is 48 rounds total of each load. Score your targets and carry the round you shoot the best.
Hint: It will almost certainly be the Silvertip.
See, the problem with the Marshall and Sanow data is they had no way to factor out stops due to things other than the value of the hit. If all that was shot with the 22 LR were mice that faint at loud sounds and all that was shot with the 458 Lott was drug crazed elephants, the 22 LR would far and away be the "best"
What is actually best? 95% of the time any caliber you get solid hits with. So, the best carry load will definitely be the one you can hit the best with. And the Bill Drill will expose that in a big hurry.
Silvertips are rated at 1290 which makes you go"yeaaaahhhhh buddy" then you see they used a 5.5" or 6" barrel lol They get 1150 or so from a Glock 29. I begged Hornady to bump the Critical Duty up a tad, I would love it if they got 1150-1160.
What makes you fellers hang onto your Silvertips? Warewolves? Haha
I do think the CD's are sexy expanded.
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Silver Tips are a good round, been around and proven... are they the hardest hitting , no.
But placement is more important ( IMO ) then also second hit... Unless you train long enough with the higher impulse ammo it's not going to happen.
PS Nice second Picture, tho I could see that under the title "hold my beer and now watch this " :)
I chose Silvertips because they are well proven, loaded by a major manufacturer and cannot be considered "anything special", and I just don't much care for little gummy tips on pistol bullets.
We might not be hard to kill, but we can be hard to stop:
https://bluelivesmatter.blue/epthen-johnson-shooting-video-lufkin-pd/
That having been said, I think Silvertips in 10mm are still a good choice for carry.
I didn't watch the video yet... But I bet shot placement had more to do with it than bullet selection.
Quote from: tommac919 on May 20 2017 05:55:31 AM MDT
Silver Tips are a good round, been around and proven... are they the hardest hitting , no.
But placement is more important ( IMO ) then also second hit... Unless you train long enough with the higher impulse ammo it's not going to happen.
PS Nice second Picture, tho I could see that under the title "hold my beer and now watch this " :)
The picture was taken safely, and I haven't had a drink in 4 years now. I removed the striker to take the picture and used a cell phone to snap it from the side.
Quote from: Overkill338 on May 20 2017 11:16:38 AM MDT
Quote from: tommac919 on May 20 2017 05:55:31 AM MDT
Silver Tips are a good round, been around and proven... are they the hardest hitting , no.
But placement is more important ( IMO ) then also second hit... Unless you train long enough with the higher impulse ammo it's not going to happen.
PS Nice second Picture, tho I could see that under the title "hold my beer and now watch this " :)
The picture was taken safely, and I haven't had a drink in 4 years now. I removed the striker to take the picture and used a cell phone to snap it from the side.
After you watch it we can share our thoughts.
I did watch it. The guy never even flinched as being shot.
I know shot placement is everything. But if I dropped back to ST's, I might as well stick with my Critical Duty ammo. They don't shed weight like the ST and are made to pass through objects including thick clothing and still open. Not much difference in speed either. 1080 vs 1130. I can shoot the Critical Duty's a lot faster than I can the Sig's or the Underwoods, no doubt about that. The big bonus is I can order the LE 50 round boxes of Critical Duty for $35+ shipping.
Quote from: Overkill338 on May 20 2017 11:52:47 AM MDT
I did watch it. The guy never even flinched as being shot.
I know shot placement is everything. But if I dropped back to ST's, I might as well stick with my Critical Duty ammo. They don't shed weight like the ST and are made to pass through objects including thick clothing and still open. Not much difference in speed either. 1080 vs 1130. I can shoot the Critical Duty's a lot faster than I can the Sig's or the Underwoods, no doubt about that. The big bonus is I can order the LE 50 round boxes of Critical Duty for $35+ shipping.
My mistake I quoted the wrong post.
Quote from: 4949shooter on May 20 2017 01:06:06 PM MDT
Quote from: Overkill338 on May 20 2017 11:52:47 AM MDT
I did watch it. The guy never even flinched as being shot.
I know shot placement is everything. But if I dropped back to ST's, I might as well stick with my Critical Duty ammo. They don't shed weight like the ST and are made to pass through objects including thick clothing and still open. Not much difference in speed either. 1080 vs 1130. I can shoot the Critical Duty's a lot faster than I can the Sig's or the Underwoods, no doubt about that. The big bonus is I can order the LE 50 round boxes of Critical Duty for $35+ shipping.
My mistake I quoted the wrong post.
I still value your opinion. If you guys think id be better off with Critical Duty than my Sig's & Underwoods, then I'll switch back. I know shot placement is key and being able to put the 2nd shot near the 1st is just as important. Plus its not hard to get target ammo close to matching 1080 fps
I like Buffalo Bore 155gr Barnes. The old Golden Sabers did well if anyone loaded them up now.
Shot placement is key but never ideal. It looks like he was shooting the guy from the side. From what I have seen in some hunting videos, full power is the way to go. I can get 4 shots of Underwood off just las fast as the officer did. The luxury,
the officer had was a stationary target and the perp was not shooting back.
Quote from: Overkill338 on May 20 2017 01:21:22 PM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on May 20 2017 01:06:06 PM MDT
Quote from: Overkill338 on May 20 2017 11:52:47 AM MDT
I did watch it. The guy never even flinched as being shot.
I know shot placement is everything. But if I dropped back to ST's, I might as well stick with my Critical Duty ammo. They don't shed weight like the ST and are made to pass through objects including thick clothing and still open. Not much difference in speed either. 1080 vs 1130. I can shoot the Critical Duty's a lot faster than I can the Sig's or the Underwoods, no doubt about that. The big bonus is I can order the LE 50 round boxes of Critical Duty for $35+ shipping.
My mistake I quoted the wrong post.
I still value your opinion. If you guys think id be better off with Critical Duty than my Sig's & Underwoods, then I'll switch back. I know shot placement is key and being able to put the 2nd shot near the 1st is just as important. Plus its not hard to get target ammo close to matching 1080 fps
Been busy shooting some 10mm this weekend, of course.
I was in a rush when I answered your PM. I think the Critical Duty is fine. It functions great out of my G20's. It isn't the strongest 10mm (mid range load), but out of a G29 will be controllable. The Sig loads are fine as well. As for Underwood, you might want to stick with the reduced Delta Elite load from a 29. This is a 1240 or 1250 fps load, and will be more controllable out of the 29. But it all is determined by your wrist strength, shooting experience, and ability to place shots under pressure of a high risk situation.
My friend has a 29 which I have fired often. He refuses to shoot full power Underwood through it. We did fire some Double Tap hard cast. You really have to tighten your wrist with these loads to keep it functioning.
I would like to fire some Critical Duty through it to get the feel for it. Maybe I will pick up a box one day. I don't think you could go wrong with it though.
Here is the former "Delta Elite" load.
https://underwoodammo.com/shop/delta-elite-10mm-auto-180-grain-jacketed-hollow-point/
My Delta Elites are the Gold Dot version, in my G 20,29.
I wish they still made it with Gold Dots. Great bullets they are...
Quote from: 4949shooter on May 21 2017 05:36:21 PM MDT
I wish they still made it with Gold Dots. Great bullets they are...
I've always carried Gold Dots in every caliber. Justin told me that Gold Dots just aren't as easy for them (Underwood) to get their hands on.
We carry them at work in 9mm. I could see with all the law enforcement agencies carrying them they would be difficult to obtain.
I have loaded shot and carried the 175G Winchester Silvertips in my 10MM since the 10 was born. I have also shot a few deer with them in my loads to 1300+ fps and they simply work.
My father shot a 20# hog with my Delta many years back with a factory Silvertip at about 20 yards. Thru and thru penetration high behind the front leg broad side. The piggie ran but quickly ran outta steam still in site.
A 150ish deer I shot couple years back, was shot at about 50 yards quartering to me. The shot was on the front of the shoulder, high. The bullet clipped the spine and exited in a golf ball sized exit high but about the center of the lungs. It was a DRT having broken the spine. With almost 18" of penetration and breaking major bones. It was a hand load, the impact velocity was probably just north of 1300fps. I trust the Silvertip.
I also "play" with the 135 Noslers. Mostly in my Mech Tech carbine to see what velocities I can get shooting Coyotes. The holes, entrance holes they produce on 50ish # dogs is eye opening. They are not base ball sized but bigger then a golf ball, mostly I get exits but not the complete bullet. Impact velocities are 1650+.
I also shot a dog with a 155 Terminator cast hollow point and WOW did that bullet open up! I dont remember velocity. I have shot some water jugs with the 40 and 135's at 1300 fps and they open up nicely!
To me they are a novelty, or nice for use on vermin, small 4 legged vermin. ;D
For my $ the 40 is tops with a 155/165 and the 10mm is tops with the 165/180 DEFENSIVELY. 2 legged vermin. That being said, My 40's see more 155 and my 10's 180's than any other bullet.
I like Underwood & Double Tap.
CW
Quote from: Overkill338 on May 20 2017 01:21:22 PM MDT
If you guys think id be better off with Critical Duty than my Sig's & Underwoods, then I'll switch back.
Like I said, only you can determine which one you shoot best under stress. A timer is a great way to introduce some stress.
Put them on a timer. If you can run a bill drill on a 30' target in 4 seconds keeping "A" hits, you are GTG.
I do need to invest in a timer. Although I can feel the difference in Shooting speed between all the loads I've tried. I'm not too bad with the Sigs, but the Critical Duty, I'm quite a bit faster and accurate with.
there are several shooter timers that work on the IOS an Android platform....
Quote from: tommac919 on May 22 2017 02:26:18 PM MDT
there are several shooter timers that work on the IOS an Android platform....
This is what I was going to say. I have the IPSC Shot Timer on my Nexus.
Quote from: Ridgerunner665 on May 18 2017 08:12:18 PM MDT
More of my opinions, :))
I'm not knocking Underwood, not at all, I'm sure its all very good stuff....its just not what I'd carry for defense against humans, we're not that hard to kill.
Tell that to the two dead FBI agents who were killed during the 1986 Miami shootout with Michael Platt and William Matix.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout)
"Although both Matix and Platt were hit multiple times during the shootout, Platt fought on and continued to wound and kill agents. This incident led to the introduction of more powerful handguns in the FBI and many police departments around the United States."
"As Platt climbed out of the passenger side car window, one of Dove's 9 mm rounds hit his right upper arm and went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. The autopsy found Platt's right lung had collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1.3 liters of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Of his many gunshot wounds, this first was the primary injury responsible for Platt's eventual death.[12] The car had come to a stop against a parked vehicle, and Platt had to climb across the hood of this vehicle, an Oldsmobile Cutlass. As he did so, he was shot a second and third time, in the right thigh and left foot. The shots were believed to have been fired by Dove.[13]
Platt took up position by the passenger side front fender of the Cutlass. He fired a .357 Magnum revolver at agents Ronald Risner and Gilbert Orrantia, and was shot a fourth time when turning to fire at Hanlon, Dove and Grogan. The bullet, fired by Orrantia's revolver, penetrated Platt's right forearm, fractured the radius bone and exited the forearm. This wound caused Platt to drop his revolver.[14] It is estimated that Platt was shot a fifth time shortly afterwards, this time by Risner. The bullet penetrated Platt's right upper arm, exited below the armpit, and entered his torso, stopping below his shoulder blade. The wound was not serious.[15]"
And this is just one of many shootings between law enforcement officers and criminals where the criminal was shoot multiple times (some as many as 12 or 13 times before finally being stopped.
Some humans are not so easy to stop.
Especially those humans who are evil and are actively trying to kill you. That's why I carry a gun and carry the most effective stopping ammunition that I can find. I've been through enough training programs and read plenty of encounters between law enforcement and criminals to comprehend that some bad people are damn difficult to stop. I'm retired now, but, the training still holds true because facts don't change.
I've went back and forth on ammo for myself. I'm going full on Critical Duty. They perform great out of a 10mm. Although I'm looking at 155gr Barnes too. But if the Critical Duty loses my confidence, I'll full time switch to my 9x25 Dillon barrel and use the 125gr XTP or 125gr Gold Dot or 125gr Nosler Bonded (which outperforms the 6 pedal Gold Dot. From my 3.8" barrel they average 1525-1550 fps.
That agency issue's Glock 22's. My guess 180 grain.
FBI? They went 165 when they authorized 40 S&W
I had a chance to shoot a box of Border Patrol / Customs old 135 grain JHP. It was Federal ammo, and was peppy in my Glock 22.