Hello
This ammo was done before, but I picked some up last winter and wanted to see if anything changed... And waiting for some decent weather to shoot.
Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Federal
180 grain Trophy Bonded JSP
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JDjbffm/DSC01886.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Muzzle Velocity; Advertised: 1275 fps
Actual Instrumental Velocity: 1207 fps average; 10 feet from muzzle;
Data on target;
Velocity
Extreme Spread
Standard Deviation
Temperature
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNnjm8xP/DSC01885.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6yBSQkbb)
Velocities taken with an Oehler model 33 chronograph.
Muzzle Energy; Advertised: 650 ft. lbs.
Brass Make/Head stamp: Federal 10mm Auto
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info: Federal 180grain Trophy Bonded JSP
Actual Weight: 179.5 grains; Dia. .4000"; .590" long,
(https://i.postimg.cc/02J3dfpH/DSC01891.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Crimp diameter: .4220"
C.O.A.L.: 1.251"
Primer: Nickel
Case: Base dia. .420"; Length .987" Nickel
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: Very dense flattened ball 16.0 grains.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqmTWptx/DSC01895.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxTf2dY6/DSC01896.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/X7CjG9Xn/DSC01892.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Case expansion data;
.4330", .4337", .4335, .4336, .4328", .4337, .4340"
Notes;
Shot one round into seven one gallon milk jugs filled with water. The bullet penetrated six jugs. The bullet didn't expand out into a typical mushroom.
This ammo is very consistent and shoots well. Not quite as fast as Buffalo Bore or Underwood, but fast enough. Good solid factory round that takes good advantage of 10mm power.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbZhgBtF/DSC01887.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/02KVT0yR/DSC01889.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/28Bf0vp3/DSC01890.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
RDub01, your pictures were hosted by Photobucket, I uploaded them my postimage so we could preserve them...
Those last 3 pics of the bonded projectile after fired through water jugs are very interesting. I've never seen the Trophy Bonded Bullet open like that. All the previous post fired projectiles I've seen showed the traditional mushroom shame and limited expansion, almost like an a-frame bullet. Your example acted very differently. Two petals didn't fold back at all and the two others on the opposite side folded back so far the jacket was beginning to shed. I've used it as a hunting round but have yet to recover a slug yet.
RDub01, thanks! Very nicely done and shows more powder that the other one I done. I am wondering if the power is 296/H110 that they are using. Older loadings were never shown as being this much.
Winchester Data from 15th edition 98-99 http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/Winchester10mmdata1_zpsc7e199e5.jpg (http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/Winchester10mmdata1_zpsc7e199e5.jpg)
*Note: 296 powder is considered to be one of the best powders for use in magnum handgun cartridges. Please refer to page
for recommended primer and use a very heavy crimp. Failure to follow this procedure could result in poor ignition and/or
squib loads under extreme circumstances, particularly in loads where less than 90% of the available powder space is being
used (low loading density).
On a side note this Winchester data was when they were downloading the 180's to FBI protocol. So it is likely with the low pressure values that 296 could be pushed to higher doses and still be in a safe pressure range!
The one from March 2014 http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/federal-trophy-bonded-180gr-jsp-pull-down/msg28998/#msg28998 (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/federal-trophy-bonded-180gr-jsp-pull-down/msg28998/#msg28998)
I may have to test the 296 to see how close I can get to the numbers...
I have some 296....hmmm... I had assumed it was too slow for 10mm, even with 200 grain bullets.
I didn't think you could use 296 or H110 in the 10mm since I haven't seen any data for them 2 powders in 10mm. Am I missing something??
It is too slow to get good velocities from with the powder you can fit in the case. But it does work.
Quote from: sqlbullet on May 18 2017 02:30:17 PM MDT
It is too slow to get good velocities from with the powder you can fit in the case. But it does work.
That's what I thought too, but I never tried to stuff that much inside...
According to QuickLoad, 16 grains of 296 isn't gonna fit... That would be 131% load density.
And over 51,000 psi... And that is figured based on a sloppy Glock chamber (25.4 grains fired case capacity)
No... Nevermind...I ran that with a 200 grain bullet.
Hey Rojo27 this was indeed a most unusual bullet performance. I've shot a lot of milk jugs and always got a nice expansion. The only exception was a Remington UMC 125gr JSP .357 Mag that went through all six jugs and knocked over a piece of 2x6, putting a dent in it. No expansion at all, just flattened the nose a bit...
Ok, I got a new primed 10mm case and weighed out 16.0grs of 296 and charged the case. The powder level was very close, if not exactly the same as the factory round. 180gr jacketed bullets come in many lengths and since we can't compress a ball powder well, just the very shortest would work here. I don't think there would be enough room for the longer jacketed hollow points. As it was, when putting the factory round back together, I could feel a crunch at the very end of the seating stroke, so the charge was slightly compressed. I noticed the factory bullet had adhesive stains.
It seems to me that if H-110/296 were acceptable in 10mm, that there would be some data for it. Since there isn't.. Why not? Or, is there some legal concerns..
As a handloader, I can assemble excellent safe max power ammunition using Blue Dot, 3N38, 800-X, Longshot and AA#9 that is just as accurate and a bit faster than the Federal offering. So I don't see the need to use H-110/296 in 10mm.
It is interesting the approach Federal is going for here, using a large amount of slow burning powder, which I'm assuming is to keep pressures from spiking too much. I wonder in a 4.6" barrel, how much unburned powder is left over.. Well in any case the round is very useful and I'm happy Federal is making it.
Given what has been deduced about how it was loaded - can we reverse engineer a reasonable explanation? I'm going to bet that this "hunting" round will make good use of at least 6" of barrel.
Hmm kay ... got me curious. Time to pack the Mechy, the Silverback, the Chrony and some Trophy Bonded out to the range. I'm curious how much charge is going unburned and more barrel is the best way I know to find out.
Most reasonable explanation is they had some H110/296 around, and found a 10mm load that fit the velocity profile for the bullet/product.
I have a bunch of H-110 that I use for the .44mag but would be interesting to know if I could use it for the 10mm and what would be a Max load?....who's gunna be the guinea pig..lol
I'm going with AA#9 also. I love 296, but feel like without the great crimp I'm at a loss for power. Muzzle flash would be hellacious though. Can't deny that!
Quote from: dred on May 18 2017 09:50:27 PM MDT
Given what has been deduced about how it was loaded - can we reverse engineer a reasonable explanation? I'm going to bet that this "hunting" round will make good use of at least 6" of barrel.
Hmm kay ... got me curious. Time to pack the Mechy, the Silverback, the Chrony and some Trophy Bonded out to the range. I'm curious how much charge is going unburned and more barrel is the best way I know to find out.
Who knew it would take me this long to get the kit to the range?
But,
Trophy bonded in the Mechy: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q9QryFLJ0Zy1yMsBcWol4oytStypnmaYzM7hch2O5eI/edit#gid=1873872204 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q9QryFLJ0Zy1yMsBcWol4oytStypnmaYzM7hch2O5eI/edit#gid=1873872204)
Trophy bonded in the Silverback:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uvAPG3I9lAqp_xQa3iS8JUNFk9RDq5FnpsEs-sX3g2E/edit#gid=1844500006 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uvAPG3I9lAqp_xQa3iS8JUNFk9RDq5FnpsEs-sX3g2E/edit#gid=1844500006)
Muzzle velocities: 1287 fps in the 5"; 1608 fps in the 16".
Out of the Mechy, she's still delivering 1000 lb.ft at 15 yards.
Hey Dred
Your links require permission.. But anyway sounds like more barrel is the ticket with this round.. Thanks for the report
Quote from: RDub01 on July 10 2017 11:35:22 PM MDT
Hey Dred
Your links require permission.. But anyway sounds like more barrel is the ticket with this round.. Thanks for the report
Links fixed.
Interesting expansion on that bullet. There used to be 296/110 data years ago. I don't think it worked very well thus it is not published any longer.
I have a PDF of an old Winchester #15 reloading pamphlet, and while browsing through it looking for something else, I discovered a listing for 296 and 180gr and heavier jacketed bullets. The pressure is held down quite a bit at 22,200 psi as opposed to pressures of everything else at 35K..
Knowing what I do about 296, I have a hard time believing this load would work very well at that pressure.. Why wouldn't Winchester load this up to 35K?
Interesting..
(https://s20.postimg.org/ywksvm8u5/Win_15_10mm_296.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Not enough room in the case I suspect.
I do wonder what it would do with a magnum primer though.
I have 296 and magnum primers, and you just gave me the rest of what I needed to find out (load data).
RDub01, I have that pamphlet and PDF for Winchester 15 as well, It needs to be tested at higher levels to get it to burn better in my opinion. I wonder if they were showing this data for ammo developed for longer barreled things like the MP-5 10mm as tested in handgun barrel lengths?
By the way here is the warning for the * shown for 296 in that publication...
Quote*Note: 296 powder is considered to be one of the best powders for use in magnum revolver cartridges. Recommended for these loads are the use of a Winchester or Winchester magnum primer and a very heavy crimp (high bullet pull).
Failure to follow this procedure could result in poor ignition and/or squib loads under extreme circumstances, particularly in loads where less than 90% of the available powder space is being used (low loading density).
Do not reduce powder charges with 296 powder. Any further reduction in powder charge or change in components can cause dangerous pressures.
The possibility of squib does exist as as the primer can push the entire powder charge and bullet before ignition happens.
One thing that could solve this for 10mm is using a sealant to help secure the bullet because of the lack of crimp. We have seen sealants used on defensive and law enforcement ammo by some companies...
Yep, that *'See note above' means that a magnum primer is required..
And all that Winchester rhetoric about reduced loads.. What the heck is 12.6 grains at 22,400 psi???
That is lower than most of the staring loads listed.. Interesting..
As I mentioned before, 16.0 grains of 296 'will' fit in a 10mm case with just enough room for a short 180 FMJ bullet. So.. who has an extra gun they don't care about.. LOL
So this box had more powder than the one I had. Anyone care to get another new box and see? Nothing on the powder yet??