First off I'm a newbie to the forum and owning a handgun. I bought EAA witness p compact 3 weeks ago and have been having nothing but trouble since the first day. >:( I know the recoil spring is too soft for this gun but I couldn't help but running a box of 50 through it the weekend I got it. The slide started hanging open after 25 rounds and upon stripping it down found the recoil springs smashed together. After a good bit of reading on here I ordered a wolf spring calibration pack. First tried the 22lb spring but it jammed it up the first shot tried couple more times same result. Tried both the 20lb and 18lb afterwards and it would cycle a few rounds then the slide would stay open. When releasing the slide and chambering a round It felt like something was scraping. So i fired it a few more times until the slide stuck open and pulled the round out and it had a little dent in it where it had run into the slide stop. Could this be because the slide stop is damaged from firing it with the weak stock spring or could it be that it was out of tolerance from factory? Has anyone else had a problem with the slide stop like this?
Oh man, that is unfortunate. Hang in there, some shooters with a ton of Witness experience are on this board. Welcome to the forum!
Thanks. I'm hoping to get to liking this pistol once I can get it to shoot reliably.
This is the Polymer frame with a reduced magazine capacity? The 14 round P-Carry is the better choice due to the magazines. Can you take a picture of the recoil springs? Does the magazines use a red or black follower?
Yes it is the polymer with a 9 round mag red follower. It mangled the dual springs pretty good.
[attachment deleted by admin]
I know what I would do if I had one. Get a Wolff single spring and cut it back to fit the pistol. It might require mag tuning too plus changing followers to K10 blacks.
Already have the single wolff spring. :) So the mag is causing a misalignment to where its causing the bullet to run into the slide stop? I am making EAA right this ship and they have been pretty good thus far. So if I tell them I'm having problems getting it to feed and would like a k10 follower for my mag they will know what I'm speaking about? Is the 12 round mag any better or does it suffer from the same issue? EAA just told me to sent it in but I'd don't think I could ever trust this thing for CCW now. Considering trying to take it back and getting a store credit. >:( Would the P carry be anymore reliable?
This thing sounds horrible. I would move it along honestly. Their full-size and Tangfoglio models all do well but I have never heard anything good about the compact.
Our fearless board owner has the P-Carry and seems to really like it. It employs the K10 14 round magazines and that's a huge advantage over the others. EAA should be able to offer up the black followers (K10) for you upon request. I got a bag of them myself a while back. The CZ 45ACP followers are the same if you can find stock.
If it's a size thing and you need small, try the G29!
So, the polymer carry (3.6" barrel, 14 round mag) operates better than the polymer compact (3.6" barrel, 12 round mag)? Or is it just with the 9 round mag. I thought about buying the compact model.
I am thinking of trying to exchange it towards P carry. I just don't like not having a manual safety so that is why I didn't go with the G29 SF. I want this gun for CCW as much as something to target shoot on the weekends so it has to be something that is reliable. I already had the unpleasant experience of a 3 on 1 stomping contest and needless to say I got the short end of the stick. I'd rather have something I can trust to put odds in my favor if it should ever happen again.
I carry a G29.
Recently picked up an HK-P30SK, and it really made me want a sub-compact CZ style poly framed 10mm. But, this experience is way to common for me to pull the trigger.
And it isn't the Witness platform. I have a full-size and a Match. Love them both.
But going smaller than a 4" barrel is a real challenge with 10mm. Add to that a polymer frame that can flex and you have a recipe of lots of issues.
Sent it back to EAA. They sounded a little surprised it had the red follower magazine still. Curious as to what all they will do to it but I figured I'd give them a chance to fix it.
Not a bad approach. Keep us updated please!
Will do.
I have the 12 round Witness Comp P and had the same issue with the recoil spring. Nothing else that dropped-in would work, as the aftermarket springs would take a set and left you with little extra length to push the slide closed. So, at times it wouldn't go into battery without bumping the back of the slide. Hence the dual springs, with the exception they don't seem to last before getting chewed up.
So... I tried a Glock 22lb flat spring. Flat springs generally don't take a set, they last longer, and you can get more coils stacked since they're thinner than round springs. Did it work? Nope. I could not, without strange tricks with dental floss and compression techniques, get enough of the flat spring inserted. The problem was the spring pocket. It was too long, and wouldn't allow me to insert the length I needed. I did what any reasonable kitchen table smith would do and chop half of the spring pocket off. Now I could get the extra length spring as well as the guide rod in place. I'm not sure how much I had to cut of the flat spring, but it was trial and error until it worked.
I can actually cut the spring pocket back some more since not much is needed when you compare it to the Glock design. So far the slide's been going into battery as it should and it functions fine. Sometimes the slide seems a bit slow with weaker ammo, but still functions. One day I'll get back into it and see if I can fine tune it further.
Edit: Wanted to mention that it's not the flat spring alone that required cutting the spring pocket. Mounting the spring on the guiderod prevented the spring/guiderod from being inserted into the pocket as a combo. You can see from the pic that the flat spring fits closely around the rod and 'that' blocked the rod from aligning with the exit hole. Nomenclature isn't my strong suit! LOL
[attachment deleted by admin]
I'm still waiting on the return of mine. Unfortunately the place i bought it from took 2 and a half weeks to get around to sending it in (it left yesterday). My poor service at my gun shop is another story in itself. >:( Once I get it back I have quite a few things I'd like to try on it to get the 20 or 18lb Wolff recoil spring to work. I do have a few questions for you guys though. Correct me if I'm wrong but won't the full sized 14 round magazines fit my P compact? I would be up for trying one of the mec-gar mags if it does indeed fit. Looking at Wolff's website under the full size EAA handgun magazine springs it says "all calibers except 10mm" so what gives? I would like to try a +5% and a +10% on the 14 round mag and on the 9 round one I got with it once it returns but I plan on giving Wolff a call to ask a few questions. I did ask if I could have the red follower changed out for a black as well. I expect the gun will function fine when I get it back but pretty much know I will have to ditch the stock spring if I want it to function for any longer period of time.
I just trimmed a couple new flat ISMI springs for range testing. The original one I cut was 21 coils, which worked fine, but on occasion, the slide seemed to return into battery too slowly. So I cut a 24 and a 26 coil spring. The wire thickness is the same between all the various weight springs, just the amount of coils change. 26 coils is as long as I could make it and still have the slide lock back. You can really feel the difference between just a couple extra coils!
Once again, the only way you can make this work on any compact Witness is to cut the spring pocket in order to get the guide rod and spring to have enough room for insertion. Here are some pics with the 26 coil spring.
Edit: Here's a link to the spring. Note I have the Henning conefit guide rod, but they'll work on stock guide rods as well.
http://www.ndzperformance.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=ISMI-GLC-20LB (http://www.ndzperformance.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=ISMI-GLC-20LB)
[attachment deleted by admin]
So, for a 10mm that you can conceal even better than a Glock 19, and definitely better than a Glock 29, the Witness Compact P 10mm, at just under 1" wide at the slide, and with some simple enough tuning, can be the #1 compact carry piece in 10MM, with 12+1 capacity.
I haven't shot any Underwood or other standard SAAMI spec ammo through it, yet, but I don't see why it wouldn't handle the extra power of those loads. When it comes to 10mm for self defense, this may just be one of the best alternatives. For a dual role as a hunting pistol, I don't think so. For hogs and bear, you'll want to shoot out of a 5-6" barrel with a flat nosed projectile for deep penetration. Perhaps a 200-220 grain hard cast bullet. For personal defense, anything fast will work best, such as a 155 grain Underwood traveling at a Muzzle Velocity of 1500 fps, with a muzzle energy of 774 ft lbs. Awesome.
Nice work. I should be getting mine back this week. I'm not to the point of frustration that I would have the spring pocket shortened up to fit a flat spring(yet). Had you tried a 14 round mec-gar magazine with a +10% spring? I'm going to give that a shot with my recoil spring calibration pack. Probably also get a 2nd mag spring and tinker trimming it to fit the 9 round magazine. I was told by EAA only the mags with the red followers (9rd,12rd) are available for the compact so couldn't try to exchange mine for mec-gar mag.
Are you using the stock magazine spring in that 12rd?
Yes, I only have 2 of the stock magazines with the red followers. They seem to have an 11 round capacity, +1 chambered, so a 12 round 10mm pistol. I'm convinced the only fix for this pistol is to do what I did and remove about half the spring pocket and use the ISMI flat wound recoil springs.
I took mine to the range today with various springs to test to see which worked the best. I didn't even have to make a swap, because I started with the 26 coil spring, and never looked back, as it was perfect. I had no failures at all thru 150 rounds of ammo. Federal HP, PMC HP, and S&B FMJ. The PMC HP felt the stoutest, and was also the most accurate, but the S&B was close behind. The Federal HP was just not as accurate through mine, but not terrible. All were absolutely reliable and something you could trust with your Compact P 10MM with the given mods.
If you want to modify your pistol, contact a gunsmith or machinist to see if they'll cut back the spring pocket. I have access to milling and lathe equipment, but I was impatient and just did mine in my shop with crude tools, grinders, and stones, and bluing. Not as precise, nor pretty, but close enough and worked very well. It's really the only way to make the Compact P work to resolve the recoil spring issue (IMO). Once done, you'll have a reliable 10mm compact shooter. I have every confidence in mine now.
Had you tried heavier springs in the mags before as well?
It's a weird thing really. The owner of Elite Ammunition did testing with extreme loads when he was making 10mm ammunition. He had it working just fine and I don't think he did a magic dance.
Some videos and you can ask him questions.
Is the spring pocket that you discuss on the slide close to the end? How much was removed?
Thanks, Nelson
Quote from: Intercooler on April 25 2017 05:37:04 PM MDT
It's a weird thing really. The owner of Elite Ammunition did testing with extreme loads when he was making 10mm ammunition. He had it working just fine and I don't think he did a magic dance.
Some videos and you can ask him questions.
10mm+p?
You going to email this guy or should I?
Quote from: Ohio10mm on April 25 2017 04:23:30 PM MDT
Had you tried heavier springs in the mags before as well?
I haven't changed anything in the mags. Feeding was not an issue on mine, it was the collapsing of the recoil spring (taking a set) when using standard aftermarket recoil springs, such as Wolff. It would fire fine most of the time, but not returning to battery was an issue many times. Not enough force. Hence the factory use of the dual springs to allow a longer overall spring length. Problem with the dual springs is they get trashed quickly as we've seen, and next thing you know you're trying aftermarket springs and they may not be working very well.
That's my experience, anyway. It's a big step to chop a pistol, as it's pretty much done as a resale item, but I was going after reliability and didn't care much about the lost value (even though it should go way up it works so well! ;D )
Thanks guys, I'll likely get to give my list of things to try next weekend and put 6 boxes of rounds through it. Magic dance probably not going on the list though. ;D
Quote from: drnls on April 25 2017 07:55:12 PM MDT
Is the spring pocket that you discuss on the slide close to the end? How much was removed?
Thanks, Nelson
Yes, at the muzzle end of things. Not sure of the actual name but "spring pocket" sounded ok. It's the doohickey at the front of the slide where the guide rod and spring are inserted. :D I removed about 1/2 of it. I just wanted enough clearance to be able to insert the guide rod and flat spring. No biggie, actually, as it still has way more support than a Glock, for example.
I shot the basic 10mm ammo on hand, but didn't bring along any Underwood with me. All I have left in Underwood is the 220 grain hard cast stuff, but save that for the Stock II if I need to take down a bear, Neanderthal, or hard-skulled Zombies. Yeah, and I'm scared, so there! :)) My favorite of all time? Underwood 155 grain HP. OMG!
Quote from: drnls on April 25 2017 07:55:12 PM MDT
How much was removed?
I measured the remaining material depth, and it's .405", so still very stout. In comparison, my Glock is .140". Now, this only works for guns with full frame dust shields, as has the Witness P Compact, but I'm sure you already figured that part out.
Quote from: Patriot on April 26 2017 10:24:04 AM MDT
10mm+p?
You going to email this guy or should I?
Good catch! LOL
Quote from: Patriot on April 26 2017 10:24:04 AM MDT
Quote from: Intercooler on April 25 2017 05:37:04 PM MDT
It's a weird thing really. The owner of Elite Ammunition did testing with extreme loads when he was making 10mm ammunition. He had it working just fine and I don't think he did a magic dance.
Some videos and you can ask him questions.
I asked him some questions on there long ago in the comments. Try an email and lets us know what he says.
10mm+p?
You going to email this guy or should I?
Thank you. Your efforts make this a possible carry option.
Nelson
Quote from: StockIIBoss on April 26 2017 02:33:33 PM MDT
Quote from: drnls on April 25 2017 07:55:12 PM MDT
How much was removed?
I measured the remaining material depth, and it's .405", so still very stout. In comparison, my Glock is .140". Now, this only works for guns with full frame dust shields, as has the Witness P Compact, but I'm sure you already figured that part out.
I got the +10% Wolff springs in the mail the other day along with a k10 mec-gar magazine. I slid the base plate off and pulled the spring and follower out and was looking at the spring plate where there is a raised rim that holds the spring centered. It is wider than the coils of the wolff spring and ends do not fit the follower nor the spring plate without doing some bending/trimming. Is it normal to have to do some modification to wolff's mag springs to get them to fit? Even if I get them bent to fit will it be ok with the raised part of the spring plate being larger than the coils of the spring? I'm a lot wet behind the ears working with this stuff but I'd much like to learn and tinkering is usually fun. Thanks for the advice.
I got the gun back today and asked if I could run a few rounds through it at the range before I took it home. I popped the stock recoil spring out and put the 18lb wolff in. I put 12 rounds through it just fine with the mec-gar mag without putting the wolff mag spring in it. The poly mag spacer fits quite nice on it as well. Have a lot rounds to run through it before I come to conclusions but it's a positive start considering I couldn't go more than 3 rounds without a jam with the wolff recoil springs using the stock magazine(red follower).
After nearly 300 rounds of tinkering it will not run reliably no matter what I do to it. I could write a book with all the things I had thrown at it. I did get it to improve but around 20 rounds is the most it would run before a FTF. The last day of shooting I put everything back to stock with the idea just to shoot it a few more times with the best chance of not having reliability problems while shooting with a few friends. Fifteen rounds in the weather wasn't cooperating so I quit and stripped it down to clean it with full intent of sending it back to EAA again. Upon doing so I saw a piece of the front insert fall out onto the table that had broken off. :o At this point I wasn't sure if I wanted to feel happy it was dead and that it was a fitting end or feel that much more disgusted. :-\ I asked EAA if it were possible to get credit towards something else not another one of these p compacts and they owe me that much for being as patient as I have been though the whole shipping fiasco and reliability issues from the start. It may have been lemon with a factory defect but I can also see why so many are saying they have had problems with these. Shipping errors aside Dawn at EAA and the rest customer service reps have been very nice and polite so I will not speak poorly of their CS. I am anxiously waiting for my call back from them tomorrow to see how they plan to resolve everything.
Have got the gun back again this time i see they did some nice work to crown the end of the barrel and added a ambidextrous safety. The front insert is all new as well. I asked what kind of ammo they used to test fire it and was told sellier & bellot as well as winchester silvertip. Took it to the range and it fired the sig sauer 180fmj alright so I stripped it down and cleaned it up not to press my luck. I haven't had enough posts to put it in the for sale section here but if any of you are looking for one of these(incl. a lot of extra mags/parts) to tinker with let me know(if not allowed to suggest that I'm selling it on this thread I apologize. It is quite the accurate piece now after the barrel work and adding the adjustable LPA sight that is for sure.