Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Underwood 135gr Nosler JHP
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1600 fps
Muzzle Energy: 767 ft. lbs
Pictures: Before/After disassembly:
Brass Make/Headstamp: Star Line - Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.4880"/Dia. 0.400": Nosler 135gr. JHP
actual weight 135.2 grains
C.O.A.L.: 1.2520"
Primer: Brass color
Case: Diameter 0.4215" Crimp Diameter 0.4210" Length 0.9870"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: IMR800X 11.8 grains
Tested 11/29/2012 Underwood 135 Gr. Nosler JHP 1738 fps : Diameter 0.4325" @ the light "Smile" primer GONE popped out!, case didn't eject.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/jdn7rnz71/IMG_0141.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/wuk6al6yl/IMG_0172.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/nzjc02pvx/IMG_0174.jpg)
Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Underwood 155gr Hornady XTP
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1500 fps
Muzzle Energy: 775 ft. lbs
Pictures: Before/After disassembly:
Brass Make/Headstamp: Star Line - Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.5510"/Dia.0.400": Hornady 155gr. XTP
Actual weight 155.4 grains
C.O.A.L.: 1.2520"
Primer: Brass color
Case: Diameter 0.4215" Crimp Diameter 0.4230" Length 0.9875"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: IMR800X 10.8 grains
Tested 11/29/2012 Underwood 155 Gr. Hornady XTP 1503 fps : Diameter 0.4280"-0.4270" primer slightly flatten
(https://s20.postimg.cc/hzvkwkppp/IMG_0147.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/k4fxxnz25/IMG_0166.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/82kk3ixjh/IMG_0167.jpg)
Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Underwood 165gr Hornady XTP
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1400 fps
Muzzle Energy: 718 ft. lbs
Pictures: Before/After disassembly:
Brass Make/Headstamp: Star Line - Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.5715"/Dia. 0.400": Hornady 165gr. XTP
Actual weith 165.0 grains
C.O.A.L.: 1.2525"
Primer: Brass color
Case: Diameter 0.4215" Crimp Diameter 0.4215" Length 0.9875"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: IMR800X 10.2 grains
Tested 11/29/2012 Underwood 165 Gr. Hornady XTP 1415 fps : Diameter 0.4275" primer slightly flatten
(https://s20.postimg.cc/vi2h8ou3h/IMG_0148.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/jg73ejskt/IMG_0165.jpg)
Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Underwood 180gr Hornady XTP
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1300 fps
Muzzle Energy: 676 ft. lbs
Pictures: Before/After disassembly:
Brass Make/Headstamp: Star Line - Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.6150"/Dia. 0.400": Hornady 180gr. XTP
actual weight 179.8 grains
C.O.A.L.: 1.2590"
Primer: Brass color
Case: Diameter 0.4215" Crimp Diameter 0.4215" Length 0.9875"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: IMR800X 9.4 grains
Tested 11/29/2012 Underwood 180 Gr. Hornady XTP 1326 fps : Diameter 0.4275" primer slightly flatten
(https://s20.postimg.cc/e4s6u1okd/IMG_0149.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/yc5mmctrh/IMG_0168.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/e4s6u23zx/IMG_0170.jpg)
Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Underwood 220gr Hard Cast
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1200 fps
Muzzle Energy: 703 ft. lbs
Pictures: Before/After disassembly:
Brass Make/Headstamp: Star Line - Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.7360"/Dia. 0.401"/Meplat 0.280": Hard Cast 220gr. HC actual weight 219.0 grains top band 0.1800"/bottom band 0.2200"/lube groove 0.1500"/nose 0.2250" (doesn't add up exact nose profile?)
C.O.A.L.: 1.2520"
Primer: Brass color
Case: Diameter 0.4215" Crimp Diameter 0.4220" Length 0.9865"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: IMR800X 8.4 grains
Tested 11/29/2012 Underwood 220 Gr. Hard Cast WFN 1209 fps : Diameter 0.4285" primer moderately flatten, case didn't eject. 12/01/2012 barrel inspected and cleaned plenty leading to remove, maybe not enough lube or the type of lube.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/3uprv0919/IMG_0150.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/lxium8clp/IMG_0175.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/c07tt6kfh/IMG_0177.jpg)
There I think I found the apostrophe in doesn't was the culprit...the 220 stuff should be visible now... 8)
All 800-X like stated. Pretty interesting!
I think we lost some of the 220's pics and info.
I may have to add the 220 seperately twice it dropped the pictures, so I'm working on it... ???
I'm itching for the 9mm and RightToBear or one of the other unknowns. Kevin's stuff is all 800-X... makes you wonder if he packed it in the little 9mm :o
Since there's no such thing as a 165gr XTP...??
Is this a brand new Hornady bullet I've failed to notice come available?
Fixed the 220 stuff...I know you're itching for the 9mm's I should have them tomorrow sometime. I have a few more 10mm's to do up, then I can switch the die sets out. ;D Like I said I'm trying to systematicly work on this, but I forgot to photo the Underwood 165gr XTP bullet while it was on the scale, I did get all the measurements of them. The 220gr HC I took some other measurements to detail the cast bullet better.
Maintaining focus with the camera (very fast auto focus) has caused some fuzy parts in the pictures. Not working on the tripod...free hand. SORRY!
Doing a great job. Keep em coming!
I think your pics are perfectly acceptable. Still wondering about the 165gr XTP? What is the mix up?
Well done Shadow!
We should guess on the powder. I'm going to guess Big Ted's has Long Shot.
Quote from: REDLINE on November 20 2012 07:43:12 PM MST
I think your pics are perfectly acceptable. Still wondering about the 165gr XTP? What is the mix up?
Underwood only has a 165 fmj and 165 bonded in its lineup.
That particular 165 grain bullet could actually be the ZERO brand bullet which is very simular to the XTP styles in that weight...that is the key is the weight and diameter...
I never knew Kevin to use anything but XTP and Gold Dots. It was an older box though so who knows.
Years ago before 40S&W took off, Hornady did make a 170 grain XTP to match the old Norma weights, their 170 and 200 grain lineup then were bullets that were more of a Turncated Cone profile that the current radiused profile we see today.
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 20 2012 08:20:00 PM MST
That particular 165 grain bullet could actually be the ZERO brand bullet which is very simular to the XTP styles in that weight...that is the key is the weight and diameter...
That makes much more sense.
Well at least we can ID Kevin's powder positively. Huge Corn Flakes leave nothing to research :o
That's the truth! 800-X in conjunction with the 10mm is so well known now that all guess work with it is practically a by gone era, even if any other powder would remotely appear similar.
Data added to reflect velocity and case expansion after test fired 11/29/2012...
What did you fire them out of a Bazooka ;D
What platform was it? I never have lost a primer but your results mirror mine scary close. I got 1210 out of the 220's today and you got 1209.
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 20 2012 06:50:03 PM MSTTested 11/29/2012 Underwood 135 Gr. Nosler JHP 1738 fps : Diameter 0.4325" @ the light "Smile" primer GONE popped out!
All the other velocities came out as I would have expected for the UW lineup, reaching velocities just over box flap claims. This one was +138 FPS. That's a lot.
Which test platform were you using, and what is it's barrel length?
You show the charge weight at 11.8 grains of 800-X with a COL of 1.252".
My disections of 4 of this same load showed the charge weight ranging from 11.4 - 11.7 grains, and COL ranging from 1.249" - 1.252".
The one you disected is another 10th of a grain over any of the 4 I disected. So out of 5 disected by you and I, that gives an even further expanded charge range of 11.4 - 11.8 grains. And yours, at the maximum charge we know of so far, looses a primer entirely.
I can't wait to get back on top of things, load up some 135s at 1.250" - 1.252", some with 11.4 grains of 800-X, and the rest at 11.8 grains of 800-X. Then see what the velocity difference is. That is, if someone else doesn't beat me to it first.
What I know is, you can't range the charge weight of 800-X by AT LEAST (that we know of so far) .5 grains and expect to hold the 37,000 PSI level that intercooler was told by Kevin Underwood they are holding. This load is supposed to be doing 1600 FPS from a G20 4.6" barrel, according to the box flap.
No doubt I am left with more questions than I started with.
Damn I forgot to add that they were teste in the S&W 1006 5" with the 22lb recoil spring...
The 135 and the 220 , cases didn't eject they were loose in the chamber as they must have been held tightly to the chamber walls as the ejection cycle started. The sizes of the expansion shows they were expanded pretty good.
Today makes the second lightly smiled casing I have seen from my S&W 1006 chamber, the 135 Underwood and a 200 XTP SwampFox duplicated load.
Is it no wonder why the took the older IMR800X data and revised it from original printings shown in this picture...
(https://s20.postimg.cc/kwilx4irh/IMRData.jpg)
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 29 2012 07:23:55 PM MSTIs it no wonder why the took the older IMR800X data and revised it from original printings shown in this picture...
I'ld say! And then to list it at 33,100 PSI!? Whatever. Must have been using the Copper Crusher method like Hornady was when Hornady suggested a max book load of 15.1 grains of No.7 behind a 155XTP. NOT GOOD EITHER!!!
BTW, to intercooler; Let this be two lessons on why not to be too quick to believe anything an ammo manufactuer says, just because they are an ammo manufactuer.
Of course IMR isn't an ammo manufactuer, but that's pretty much beside the point here. Actually I would almost suspect a powder manufacturer should know more than a bullet manufactuer. Clearly they screw up too.
What do you mean?
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 29 2012 07:14:42 PM MST
Damn I forgot to add that they were teste in the S&W 1006 5" with the 22lb recoil spring...
The 135 and the 220 , cases didn't eject they were loose in the chamber as they must have been held tightly to the chamber walls as the ejection cycle started. The sizes of the expansion shows they were expanded pretty good.
Today makes the second lightly smiled casing I have seen from my S&W 1006 chamber, the 135 Underwood and a 200 XTP SwampFox duplicated load.
thats scary. Smiles and blown primers from one of the most supported chambers available for the 10mm.
Here is the thing...I knew exactly what was in these rounds since I pulled it apart to see what was inside.
I have studied the 135 Nosler for a long time, I have read reports of people using the 14.5 grain loading without issues in their testing while others saw different results such as smiles and expanded brass using a little less than the 14.5 grains, 13.5 grains, etc.
I don't know why the primer popped out on this round, the primer was seat by Underwood so I have no idea if it was a loose primer pocket, highly doubtful because of the velocity and pressure generated. If I test any more of these loads, loaded to this level, I will switch to the 24 lb recoil spring in the S&W1006, to see if it was an early unlocking situation.
BTW the Underwood loads were the last 5 in the string of testing, the lineup started with the 135-155-165-180-220 last of the testing.
I still think the Star Line brass is soft and more malleable as "NEW", not a bad thing unless it smiles to render it unuseable.
Wonder why I have never gotten a popped primer in any platform, any MFG.
Quote from: Intercooler on November 30 2012 08:44:58 PM MSTWhat do you mean?
Based on;Quote from: Intercooler on November 07 2012 01:16:26 PM MSTOne of my lifetime sayings is : You don't know more than the manufacturers!
In Glocks case we have had more than one spell it out in written print. I don't pretend to know more than they do.
I still don't know more than them ;D
Today...I updated the post for the Underwood 220 grain HC WFN. I just did the teardown and cleaning of my 1006, the test gun for all the ammo from the 10mm pull downs. The gun and barrel were inspected and cleaned...No damage was found, however the gun was a little dirty and leading from the last shot of the test was the Underwood 220 grain HC WFN was smeared in the first 2 + inches of the barrel. I think the bullet may have smeared as it tried to grab the rifling, maybe not enough lube or the type of lube could be causes. Plenty leading to remove. :( There was more leading with this one bullet that I see from shooting many rounds of my own cast bullets!
I saw the same leading (actually slivers) in my own 1006. Also back when I did the first test I even asked about it. My purpose was just testing so really no need for me to shoot these in any quantity unless we get some really jumbo people walking around here :o
Are there cleaning agents made specifically for removing lead from a bore, or do any of the regular bore cleaners work fine?
There are a few products to remove lead. :o (WARNING some chemicals can remover finishes on your guns, nickel plating and blueing, ETC.) Be very careful what that stuff gets on even your hands! :o
I use Hopes #9 bore solvent on a copper brush wrapped with a cleaning patch to wet the bore. I let it soak for a little while, then scrub with the wetted patch still wrapped around the proper bore brush, the patch picks up and holds the debris and lead as it loosens up. Has worked well for my needs.
For heavy and stuburn fouling a Copper Chore Boy can be your friend to scrub the bore clean. 8)
Quote from: The_Shadow on December 01 2012 03:44:59 PM MST
For heavy and stuburn fouling a Copper Chore Boy can be your friend to scrub the bore clean. 8)
Part of a chore boy pad on a bore brush is really the only lead removing tool you need. No solvents or anything else comes close to being as efficient. It doesn't matter if the leading is light or heavy, a few strokes with this should leave the bore nice and shiny.
I noticed similar effects when I was testing the Underwood 220gr HC.
The bullets seemed softer and a bit larger in diameter than DT hard cast. I figured that's why they stabilized in a Glock.
But, my 1911 did struggle with them when it came to chambering. I'd only have a need for hard cast when I'm in the woods and for that I carry the Glock. So, I didn't concern myself with that.
for all you that fired all of them (hollow point) which was the one you were more accurate with or your favorite if accuaracy was the same?
i just got in all the hollow points except the 200 gr. (out of stock) so i need to do another order when in stock. but i bought all the different grains to test them for which one i am best shooting. after i find out which one is my favorite i will order a bunch in that grain. 135-200 gr. with underwood power levels i dont think it matters which one i carry as i think they they will all be adequate. if i shoot the same with two or more different grains i guess i will carry the the heavier one.
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 20 2012 08:20:00 PM MSTThat particular 165 grain bullet could actually be the ZERO brand bullet which is very simular to the XTP styles in that weight...that is the key is the weight and diameter...
I think it would be good to change the wording it the first post to reflect this, as there is and never has been a 165gr Hornady XTP.
I say this because I was referencing the data after not seeing it for a while, and even though I know better, others referencing it in the future may be confounded.
You all do great work on rev. engineering and re-engineering these loads! Thank you.
With all your experience, how comfortable do you guys feel extrapolating data from a 165gr GD to a 165gr Golden Saber? I just got a deal on a small box of 500 of them (GS's) and want to load them in both 10mm/.40S&W for SD loads. In my experience, I've seen some nice terminal perf of the GS's (decent penetration, nasty petals, etc.; very talon-like). I'd like to know your thoughts as well.
Thanks again!
Quote from: pasky2112 on August 26 2013 12:54:22 PM MDT
You all do great work on rev. engineering and re-engineering these loads! Thank you.
With all your experience, how comfortable do you guys feel extrapolating data from a 165gr GD to a 165gr Golden Saber? I just got a deal on a small box of 500 of them (GS's) and want to load them in both 10mm/.40S&W for SD loads. In my experience, I've seen some nice terminal perf of the GS's (decent penetration, nasty petals, etc.; very talon-like). I'd like to know your thoughts as well.
Thanks again!
You really need to know the difference in OAL between the bullets, amount of bearing surface, surface hardness, etc. As long as they are similar I would feel comfortable backing off ~10% then working back up to these levels, but I would not feel comfortable substituting components without backing off a bit.
What I find a bit unusual about this thread is that the very 1st post by SHADOW where
it is revealed that the 135gr Underwood ammo placed a smile on the case and blew
out the primer using a SW 1006 gun and no one or Shadow commented on any of
the rest of the cartridges in the box or any of the other 135 gr ammo sold by Underwood.
Perhaps at this late date it may be irrelevant if Underwood had switched to LONGSHOT
from IMR 800 powder for this 135 gr load. Has anyone else ever shot any of Underwoods older 135 gr 10mm ammo? Was it equally troublesome ?
If what Shadow pulled and fired was 11,8gr under the 135 gr bullet with the bad
results, what does Shadow consider to be the max load of IMR 800X ?
I'd like to know if the same bullet and powder was shot with incrementally
smaller amounts of powder to see if the trouble signs slowly disappeared.
I am committed to the XTP 155gr as my bullet and all my efforts focus there
but I will never forget the youtube videos of hi velocity 10mm 135gr hitting
hams and roasts effects. The only reason I hang with the slightly heavier bullet
is for barrier penetration but I think I saw videos where the blistering fast 135s
were the only bullets to penetrate some steel plate so I have my doubts. But nah
it is the FBI body penetration parameters that draw me to the 155 gr and not the
135gr.
Shadows Quote-
"Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Underwood 135gr Nosler JHP
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1600 fps
Muzzle Energy: 767 ft. lbs
Pictures: Before/After disassembly:
Brass Make/Headstamp: Star Line - Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.4880"/Dia. 0.400": Nosler 135gr. JHP
actual weight 135.2 grains
C.O.A.L.: 1.2520"
Primer: Brass color
Case: Diameter 0.4215" Crimp Diameter 0.4210" Length 0.9870"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: IMR800X 11.8 grains
Tested 11/29/2012 Underwood 135 Gr. Nosler JHP 1738 fps : Diameter 0.4325" @ the light "Smile" primer GONE popped out!, case didn't eject."
Preventec47, I am at a lost as to why the primer actually popped out, other than the gun started out clean and freshly lubricated with that round. Its possible that there was less frictional drag, being cleaned and lubed and the increased slide velocity from the impulse of the round. Although I was using the 22 lb spring, things may have been different, if I would have used the 24 Lb spring. But I am not biased when reporting what I find as tested. I only had the one round to test at that time (supplied by Intercooler) but I wouldn't hesitate to load some and test again. :D
I know some have worked way higher than this loading and up to the Original IMR800X listed data...135gr @ 1800 fps. ???