I had emailed them asking a few questions. I asked them if the 200gr XTP was good for self defense and if it would perform within the FBI standards, and what is the target expansion window. I also asked if the 210gr .41 Cal FTX could be sized down to use in a 10mm. Then I asked if the Critical Duty bullet would be offered as a component for handloader, and do they have plans to make a full power 10mm Critical Duty that would approach 1300 fps. Here is their reply :
Quote1. The 200 gr. XTP has a working velocity range of 700-1200 fps. The bullet was designed around hunting and law enforcement. It would not give the full benefit of the FBI protocol for penetration due to the rapid expansion of the bullet under hydraulic shock.
2. The 190 gr. FTX bullet would not work in a pistol cartridge due to the extended tip length you could not load it to magazine lengths.
3. It is very unlikely that the Critical Duty bullet will ever be offered as a component bullet due to the fact that it would require a completely individual bullet seating stem to seat the bullet. If you tried to use a standard seater it would completely crush the profile of the bullet while seating.
4. I don't foresee us producing a 1300 fps round for the 10 mm due to the following of the SAAMI standards of loading the cartridge. You would very likely have to drop the bullet wt. considerably to get this up to the 1300 fps.
Quote from: Tic-Glock on December 05 2016 09:11:35 PM MST
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Quote
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2. The 190 gr. FTX bullet would not work in a pistol cartridge due to the extended tip length you could not load it to magazine lengths.
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I don't see why it wouldn't fit. Is the bullet longer than the 10mm internal case volume?
I have loaded their 140gr FTX .357 bullet (sized to .356) in 9x23 and 357 SIG. It functioned, although it didn't perform as good as the 140gr XTP (without tip), because the FTX is longer and takes up more space in the brass case, so it has less powder to propel the bullet as fast as the XTP.
I saw you asking Hornady about this, then noticed they had replied.
For general FYI, they used to have that info on their website. I took a note of it. In addition to that 700 to 1200 ft/s range of speed for the 200gr XTP, they had 700 to 1500 ft/s for the 180gr XTP.
Funny, I chose XTP over GD because they expand later thus more penetration. I call them late bloomers.
That's a case of employees not knowing their projects.
Well when the 10mm auto was conceived there wasn't any carbines do bump up the velocities and bullets fired from the 10mm pistols making just over 1200 fps would be traveling slower and slower as it leaves the bore. Therefore the projectile is inside the performance window of its design of 700 fps to 1200 fps.
http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/catalog/2009/19-22_bullets_handgun.pdf (http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/catalog/2009/19-22_bullets_handgun.pdf)
For hunting purposes, I wish the Federal Trophy Bonded was available as a 200 grain Jacketed Soft Point...
Shadow, in your experienced, professional opinion, is the 200gr XTP good for self defense?
In my rifles I always go heavy. My 300 RUM I use 210 Bergers, my 338 Win Mag I use 250-300 grainers. So I've always preferred heavy bullets.
Tic-Glock, the answer is yes, but shot placement is key for any caliber. What needs to be understood is that if you strike your attacker or miss or have a pass through and strike an innocent person, they can sue you for any and all reasons...
As individuals we don't have a law enforcement response to back us up at the time of a possible engagement. We have no way of knowing if an assailant will be wearing any sort of body armor either, having a firearm and ammunition suitable for stopping an attack is what we would need. This is why I like a heavier projectile to have it reach vitals to stop the threat.
I'm in the heavy slug camp myself. Only thing I'm wondering if the Uw 10mm 200 XTP I have will interrupt the shooter wearing a vest by impacts enough to break his concentration on shooting me.
Hmm... I just remembered this video so maybe I answered my own question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6xtd_6XUGQ
That will be subjective and based on the state that the attacker is in...if your attacker (God forbid) would be hopped up on drugs, the impact may not register at all to the drug induced state of mind. If the attacker is not impaired and wearing some sort of armor he might feel like he was hit with a large hammer. It is another reason to train for head shots should the situation warrant.
After I realize the attacker's wearing a vest I'll be going for the pelvis rather than the head though I'll go for the head too.
The pelvis is a bigger target.
Quote from: The_Shadow on December 07 2016 09:10:31 AM MST
Well when the 10mm auto was conceived there wasn't any carbines do bump up the velocities and bullets fired from the 10mm pistols making just over 1200 fps would be traveling slower and slower as it leaves the bore. Therefore the projectile is inside the performance window of its design of 700 fps to 1200 fps.
http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/catalog/2009/19-22_bullets_handgun.pdf (http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/catalog/2009/19-22_bullets_handgun.pdf)
For hunting purposes, I wish the Federal Trophy Bonded was available as a 200 grain Jacketed Soft Point...
Ahh, but there is now!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/Gandog56/MechTech_zpsjrxvavah.jpg)
Quote from: Olgo on December 07 2016 12:04:46 PM MST
I'm in the heavy slug camp myself. Only thing I'm wondering if the Uw 10mm 200 XTP I have will interrupt the shooter wearing a vest by impacts enough to break his concentration on shooting me.
Hmm... I just remembered this video so maybe I answered my own question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6xtd_6XUGQ
I recipient of the bullet will feel the same, or less, force as the shooter. The recoil you feel in your hand is what they will feel on impact.
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That guy in the video seems to disagree with you. :D
Quote from: Olgo on December 07 2016 06:10:28 PM MST
That guy in the video seems to disagree with you. :D
I couldn't view it. The video was blocked for me.
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Really? Where are you?
Heavy(longer) bullets in rifle calibers "fly" better , retain their velocity at long range better and therefore hit their target with more energy. This I know. Over penetration and collateral damage, with a pistol caliber I can understand. My question is- if terminal ballistics of 2 given handgun bullets were equal( expansion, penetration) why would you not want the one with more energy ?
More energy does not always translate to more penetration. Here's the notes I made on Uw 10mm.
grain-fps-fpe-penetration
135-1600-767 *10.5"* (G29-1440-622)
155-1500-775 *12.5"*
165-1400-718 *12"*
180-1300-676 *17.75"*
200-1250-694 *16.125"*
Look at 180, lowest energy yet more penetration.
Thanks I see. but with this data if you are shooting a thin person in a crowded room the 155-1500 would be a better duty round ? Another question, if the 180 goes through and the 155 stops short(thus transferring ALL of its energy to the target) would the 155 have more " stopping" power ? I appreciate your patience with me I am primarily a long range target shooter.
if they reach the vitals then the job is done. 8)
If you load up with 135 or 155 and then run across a fire breathing doped up biker I think you'd better run.
Guess I will load up with 180's next time I am in Sturgis lol.
Actually the addiction has manifested itself, I just ordered some UW 180-1300's before I knew about the bikers.
I haven't really heard anything about a bullet punch through a person and injure another person behind in any news. Then I would think that the energy was expended going through one to have another injured but that's with a hollow point that expanded.
A solid core or a failed hollow point probably will cause injuries by going through someone but probably through only tissues and not encountering bones. It's really hard to say what the outcome will be so we have the cardinal rule #4 which is to be aware of what's beyond your target.
Hydrostatic shock isn't a big thing with handgun calibers. Now get hit with a 180 from a 300 Ultra Mag, and everything inside your chest cavity will be wrecked. Ever shot a deer through the heart & lungs, but the stomach is busted too? You just can't get that with a handgun. That's why he's saying make sure you can penetrate vitals.
My idea of hydrostatic shock is making a baddie cry because he got shot and it hurts. ;D
Practical hunting story- I hit an elk @ 746yds with .300RUM 180 scirocco through the heart. Heart was completely pulverized, no exit wound, elk dropped in his tracks.(I tell you it was worth every bench session, sore shoulder and scope cut). Years before I hit an elk at 335yds with .338WM 200gr CT ballistic tip, bullet passed through the edge of the heart expanding partially and exiting. Had to track the elk for a 1/4 mile through some deep timber(not fun)(and less fun getting it out).
I got the new Hornady catalog today. They have the .41 Cal 190gr FTX listed (on page 55). They show its effective performance range is from about 1200 fps to 1800 fps.
If you took a razor blade and cut the tip flat, it might work good out of a 6" barrel.
I might have to buy some to try out.
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Quote from: my_old_glock on December 27 2016 07:51:28 PM MST
I got the new Hornady catalog today. They have the .41 Cal 190gr FTX listed (on page 55). They show its effective performance range is from about 1200 fps to 1800 fps.
If you took a razor blade and cut the tip flat, it might work good out of a 6" barrel.
I might have to buy some to try out.
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I got the catalog in the mail today too. But where did you see the target velocity?
Nevermind, I see it. I thought you had found a master chart or something I missed lol
But you are thinking exactly like I was when I asked about that bullet to Hornady. Please try and let me know. With the point cut off the tip, it's no different than Critical Duty or Critical Defense.
Quote from: Overkill338 on December 27 2016 10:30:41 PM MST
Quote from: my_old_glock on December 27 2016 07:51:28 PM MST
I got the new Hornady catalog today. They have the .41 Cal 190gr FTX listed (on page 55). They show its effective performance range is from about 1200 fps to 1800 fps.
If you took a razor blade and cut the tip flat, it might work good out of a 6" barrel.
I might have to buy some to try out.
.
I got the catalog in the mail today too. But where did you see the target velocity?
Nevermind, I see it. I thought you had found a master chart or something I missed lol
But you are thinking exactly like I was when I asked about that bullet to Hornady. Please try and let me know. With the point cut off the tip, it's no different than Critical Duty or Critical Defense.
It may be a while before I can try it. I have no money and no place to shoot close by.
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I understand that completely, the holidays have killed me.
At my old place I had a 100 yard rifle range set up, permanent bench and all. Here I have to be careful which direction I shoot and expect calls when I do. Luckily I think my father-in-law is going to use his front end loader to build me a pistol range back stop.
The three on the left are 38 Cal 140gr FTX #35745, and the one on the right is 38 Cal 140gr XTP #35740.
from left to right. Full point FTX; cut point FTX; removed point FTX; XTP.
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/413051668.jpg)
The 38 cal FTX has a range of 1200 to 1800 fps. The XTP has a range from 800 to 1600 fps (these ranges seem to change with every catalog they produce)
I planned resizing these 38 Cal bullets to 0.356, and using them in 357SIG and 9x23 Winchester cartridges.
I don't think there is any reason to use the FTX in a semi-auto pistol. The maximum velocity I can get in a 6" barrel is about 1400 fps. I think the XTP would work better at that velocity and lower. The XTP also has a higher ballistic coefficient.
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Don't they make a 147gr XTP in .355"?
I buy the HAP bullets on sale.
Quote from: Overkill338 on December 29 2016 01:39:39 AM MST
Don't they make a 147gr XTP in .355"?
Yes, but I like being different.
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I've shot a couple of 150 pound small hogs with the 200gr XTP running 1350fps and both bullets passed through. One was hit in the neck and the other just above the shoulder. The neck shot was at about 15 feet, the other was about 40 yards out.
Safari Arms 6" 40 Super.
Tony
Well, I got a "product in stock notice" from MidwayUSA that they had some 190gr FTX bullets in stock. They emailed me last night @ 8 PM, but my email server loses emails, so I didn't get it until this morning. When I went to their webpage, it was already sold out. Oh well, I didn't have the money to buy it anyways.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/848633/hornady-ftx-bullets-41-caliber-410-diameter-190-grain-flex-tip-expanding-box-of-100
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That is something I hate about Classic Arms. I collect old WW II rifles and they will send me an email saying they have some new shipment of guns. As soon as I read my email in the morning I rush to their site, but they are already sold out. I have gotten the emails at night after I went to bed, get up about 6:30, and immediately go to the site. No guns left.
Quote from: TonyRumore on December 30 2016 04:27:38 PM MST
I've shot a couple of 150 pound small hogs with the 200gr XTP running 1350fps and both bullets passed through. One was hit in the neck and the other just above the shoulder. The neck shot was at about 15 feet, the other was about 40 yards out.
Safari Arms 6" 40 Super.
Tony
I try to keep my 200 gr XTP closer to 1250 or so. I have heard that if you get the XTP moving too fast it doesn't open up as much. Nice shot at 40 yards. Handgun?