Gents,
If you guys were going to issue a 10 millimeter round for a standard, stock Glock model 20 or 29, what round would you use.. now here's the catch, it has to be a FACTORY round. No reloads...I like underwood 180 or 200g XTPs...what says the rogues gallery? ?? Maybe the new sig stuff?
Silvertips.
Ubiquitous, good ballistics, manageable for most people.
The problem with Underwood in an issue environment is without a lot of practice ammo at the 600-800 lbs ft power level is not controllable out of a Glock 20, and double that for a Glock 29.
Unless you are going to have 250 rounds per month of required training, the rank and file just aren't going to have the needed proficiency.
I agree, I shoot the 200s from underwood out of my g40 and it's a solid round , you know your shooting a banger ....Silvertip listed at 1290 FPS is impressive. ...
From what I've learned so far.... If it has to be a round every hand can handle, I'd say Hornady Custom 155 or 180 XTP.
I just looked at Buffalo Bores website they actually have a tactical low flash low recoil round it's a 180 grain doing about 1200 feet per second that might do the trick.. Haven't shot any but I might order some just to check it out
I agree the Silvertips would be decent. As Sqlbullet says, most LE officers while proficient, aren't firearms experts.
The Hornady 180 XTP might be okay too.
The Silvertips come in way below 1290. Their 1290 was from a 5.5" barrel.
Most LEO use in any round ( from my experience ) has been a HP type...
The only one I've used that has been good for repeatable accurate hits for the AVERAGE shooter falls into the Silver Tip range. A warm level load but not overly snappy so secondary hits will be in the 8" circle.
But as with all things... Opinions are like as-holes and everyone has one.
Tom,
The Hornady Critical Duty comes in at 1070-1080 in a Glock 29 (3.78" barrel) if you want to check them out. Follow ups should be good. Silvertips are 1150-1160 from a Glock 20 (4.60" barrel) I believe it was.
Quote from: Overkill338 on December 22 2016 05:52:45 PM MST
The Silvertips come in way below 1290. Their 1290 was from a 5.5" barrel.
We know this. We are saying with the less muzzle blast / recoil, the lesser Silvertip would be easier for most non-firearms expert officers to shoot.
Though, now that I recall, the Silvertip does have a lot of muzzle flash. Maybe better to stick with the Hornady 180 or even 155 grain XTP.
Quote from: 4949shooter on December 23 2016 04:22:36 AM MST
We know this. We are saying with the less muzzle blast / recoil, the lesser Silvertip would be easier for most non-firearms expert officers to shoot.
Yes , above.... Isn't that why the 40sw cameto be ? :)
Most of the LEOs I use to work with only went to the range once a year for qualifying. And their scores showed it ! Prob less than 5% would go on a regular basis or a couple times a month even tho you could shoot for free.
But, What ever round is used, it has to be in the warm range but not underwood level
A hard snappy round would have made multi hits harder and training ( later ) was based on multi shots till the BG stopped.
Quote from: tommac919 on December 23 2016 06:38:15 AM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on December 23 2016 04:22:36 AM MST
We know this. We are saying with the less muzzle blast / recoil, the lesser Silvertip would be easier for most non-firearms expert officers to shoot.
Yes , above.... Isn't that why the 40sw cameto be ? :)
Yes exactly.
Quote from: 4949shooter on December 23 2016 11:39:18 AM MST
Quote from: tommac919 on December 23 2016 06:38:15 AM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on December 23 2016 04:22:36 AM MST
We know this. We are saying with the less muzzle blast / recoil, the lesser Silvertip would be easier for most non-firearms expert officers to shoot.
Yes , above.... Isn't that why the 40sw cameto be ? :)
Yes exactly.
The 40 S&W could also be built on a 9mm frame which is better suited to the smaller male Officers and also the female Officers which is a major plus.
Well a topic I'm versed in as I'm a retired disabled police officer!!!! I was also the head weapons and ammunition guru in the dept also so anyways here's my 2 cents. No on underwood no on buffalo bore the power level is way to high and with over penetration I don't like them for self defense against 2 legged critters. Now with that said I don't think a 40 smith load is acceptable either as I despise the 40 S&W. Now I do carry a glock 29 now that I'm retired and have nothing but praise for the sig v crown 180 grain I also like the old win silver tip. Both of these are modest to a point but are hotter that the 40. The 10mm is my favorite round but you can get to much sugar for a nickel in cases if you are not careful and striking a innocent bystander is NOT ACCEPTABLE! So you that's why I like the sig ammo
SgtB802, welcome to the forum. I don't think I have welcomed you yet. And thanks for your service. I wore a badge in corrections for a couple of years while in college and know well the sacrifice a career in law enforcement means.
I think your picks are spot on! The Sig V-Crown load would be a great choice, and I already offered my support to the Silvertip earlier in the thread.
I do gotta throw one question. And I mean this in all seriousness. I am NOT trying to troll you.
You comment on over-penetration being a significant factor in the selection process, both in preamble and postamble to your suggestion. And I completely agree that collateral damage is a BAD thing.
But...
1. Increasingly officers carry patrol rifles in locking ready mounts in the cab of the car so they are instantly accessible. A rifle against a human target is almost always going to over-penetrate, though intermediate rounds like the 5.56 mitigate this to some extent.
2. The old mantra is that a handgun is for fighting your way back to the rifle you never should have put down. While this is more and infantry creed, I think it applies in many situations.
3. The most contrary comment I can make is this: Even in the best trained departments the hit rate is only 66% in daylight shootings. And a miss is definitely the ultimate overpenetration. And that drops rapidly as lighting decreases to levels where most officer involved shootings actually occur. In fact, the average hit rate when a police officer discharges his gun in the line of duty is between 15% and 25%1.
While I agree that the issue of terminal performance and collateral damage can't be ignored, especially in the legal realities of today. But, are they emphasized?
I am genuinely interested in your thoughts given your background.
1. "Officer-Involved Shootings: What We Didn't Know Has Hurt Us", Thomas J. Aveni, M.S., The Police Policy Studies Council http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
Well I'll be happy to add my I put on them. When I wrote this it was as an aspect of just the 10mm round as a self defense round in the aspect of law enforcement of 2 legged varmints lol. You are thinking wrong in an aspect as the 223/5.56 does not overpenetrate unless it is stoked with a total metal jacket that round with an interesting round as with fragmenting type of fast expansion rounds for example the ballistic tip. I have seen these do exactly what I call a perfect stopping round it goes in does terminal damage and stops just prior to exit of the body. While there is no perfect round or caliber I believe the more a dept can increase officer safety while minimize danger to the public the better we are. We carried 223 rifles and I carried a 308 bolt rifle for prescicion. Every officer did have a mag of fmj ammo for in cases of barriers but they were not kept in the rifles we carried 55 gr hornady balistic tips. In the testing I have done where we hit a median of similar to human size and density most of the times all the energy was spent and did little to no damage on exit with that round while the same could not be said for the 308 or fmj 223 rounds.
There has been great strides in ammunition manufacturing and design not only in the last 20 years but especially in the last 5 years. You look what technology has done for example the 38spl 50 years ago a 158 grain lead round nose to today 100 gr high energy snub ammo made for short barrels. This goes back to what I was saying about the 10mm in the earlier post a lot of the rounds especially the buffalo bore and double tap are more designed as a hunting or a "bear" load where u are trying to stop a 500-700 plus pound animal. While these loads are great for what they are designed for and no doubt would stop a human the overpenetration would be a factor. The idea is to transfer all the energy into your target so when the bullet leaves your target it's taking energy with it. The perfect round dumps all its energy inside its target and stops 1/4 inch before it exits so to speak.
While I'm not arguing statistic and actual hit rates. Police are to far spread and training budgets sucks I know I was blessed as I was always able to get ammo for our officers to train with as we were a smaller dept (16 officers) but I got a lot of it donated and another thing the type of training is not real life anyone can stand there and punch holes but when the crap hits the fan can u hit your target? I set up drills with smoke blanks going off running and cover to try to emphasize the real world gun fight. A big problem is the training is a joke for shooting as I have seen officers pass with 80% and that minimum and with no stress so that is not that great that means basically 10 rounds could completely miss the target if all rest was centered.
I took my shooting very seriously and still do I pratice every week. I hold a retired commission and still carry a badge. I know what you are saying but if you can do something to lower the dance of an issue why not do it. There is a change from the shotgun to,rifles. How many revolvers do you see carried? Times change training is changing for example our state police course is such a joke for qualifications I shoot it perfect last time I shot it. Times are changing training is not the same as it use to be accuracy is being replaced by spray and pray.
All I'm saying is if there is a way to reduce a chance or stop a problem before it happens do it. It's far better off to have it fixed before a problem is created!!!!
Your comments echo a lot of my feelings as well.
When I left corrections I very briefly worked for a local agency that issued me a gun for four days and then decided to verify my post certification and my criminal background. I quit when I found out they hadn't done those things before they issued the gun to me.
That, of course, is an extreme example of un-professionalism.
But, as you accurately state, there are budget constraints to deal with, the impact to staffing when you pull officers off the line to train, etc. And, many officers in smaller, rural departments may go years without drawing their sidearm outside a training environment.
I have found direct competition training to be good. I have and regularly use a dueling tree. The first time you shoot head to head against someone it is really surprising how much a little pressure throws you. I would love to see some variation of head to head in department qualifier courses. Not that the loser looses his job, but that the pressure would help represent in qualification your abilities under direct stress.
Thanks for your comments!
Also throw in the fact that with modern hollowpoint ammunition, increased velocity translates into greater expansion and LESS penetration.
Though I agree that Buffalo Bore and Underwood would be too much horsepower for the average police officer to handle.
Great discussion!
Quote from: 4949shooter on April 12 2017 01:18:53 PM MDT
Also throw in the fact that with modern hollowpoint ammunition, increased velocity translates into greater expansion and LESS penetration.
Though I agree that Buffalo Bore and Underwood would be too much horsepower for the average police officer to handle.
Great discussion!
It is a great discussion, please continue.
As a retired LEO too after 33 yrs... I was amazed at the lack of proficiency of the average officer....
As prev mentioned , we migrated over to the double tap ( shoot till they stop ) as training changed. We started with 9mm and the dept moved over to 40s&w thinking it would be a better round, IMO it wasn't the round but but the training...... most of the leo's went once a year ( tho they could go more for free ). The course was mostly up close, which IMO, lead to "fake" scores , and of course no stress.
I move over to a UC det's positon later where we were able to carry odd-caliper weapons. This is where other rounds came into play, like 357's and 45 acp if wanted.
It still came down to the multi shots on target not caliper.
Down the road, retired, carrying a G20 most of the time ... started off with Silvertips ( good round ) as carry , but with more practice , now I carry a copy of UW with xtp heads or Golddots.... really warm side, yes... but practice has made me a better shooter and still allows me to double tap an 8" circle from holster
Not something you see with the average LEO shooter
Love are beloved 10mm. But .45 ACP, especially urban areas, is sufficient for Patrol Officers. Tac guys approved for 1911s in .45.
How about the Under Wood 180 gr Delta Elite Gold Dot load at 1240 fps. Not too hot. Also are the V Crowns 180 at 1250 fps, a better round than the Winchester Silver Tips.
Hey sgt, welcome aboard. Have you tried the Hornady 10mm 175 FlexLock? I too carry a G29 and these are very good loads for carry. 1150 fps and easy on your hand but more powerful than the 40sw.
Quote from: sgtbones on April 26 2017 09:36:27 PM MDT
Also are the V Crowns 180 at 1250 fps, a better round than the Winchester Silver Tips.
Haven't seen their HPs yet... But last time in VA ( Gander's Mountain ) I was able to pick up 10 boxes of their 180gr fmj.
These are great rounds, IMO, and if the HPs are the same or similar it would possibly be a better round than the Silvertips
Ran 2 boxes in the G20 at a good rate an zero issues.
I agree with everyone else, great thread with a lot of info.
I put almost 3 boxes of the Sig Elite 180gr FMJ thru the G20 yesterday and it performed flawlessly. I haven't tried Sig's V Crown's yet but if shoot like the FMJ's they should be a great round.
Thanx Olgo, I have tried the Hornady Flex Lock. Very mild compared to the other full powered 10 loads. I am going to start collecting them and add them to my ammo cache.
You're welcome sgt. Over 450 fpe out of the G29 is plenty of oomph! :)
I added some to my stock.
I'd use Critical Duty for barriers or 200 XTP Underwoods
I gotta go with the UW 180 gr GDHP. Sure it's got some ooomph to it; it's a 10MM, it's supposed to. Of course this is just my opinion. I like the round and the G 29 it's coming out of a lot, and yes, one must practice with it.
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My LGS has been searching for Super-X 175gr Silvertips for the last 2 months, and tells me none of their distributors can get it right now. They said it should be readily available for hunting season in the fall. This is a great rd to be sure. If anyone can find / order it please let me know
Hi Ken,
Unfortunately, not really - my distributors say they've actually had it on order, just haven't received any from Winchester.
So, wondering now if Winchester just doesn't produce a whole lot this time of year either!
Thanks,
-Kate
Winchester does only a limited run of the Silvertips depending on orders or contracts... ::)
I worked for a department for just shy of 30 years and we issued the S&W 1006 for several years. The main reason we switched to .40 S&W was Smith & Wesson quit making our pistols. When we hired new officers they would have to be outfitted with a different weapon. The other lesser reason was the lack of ammunition availability in the early 1990's.
We carried a 180gr XTP loaded by a boutique custom manufacturer to "warmish" levels (this was before chronographs were readily available). They knocked road damaged deer over better than our previous.357 mag revolvers did. We eventually adopted the Winchester Silvertip load and it performed quite well. I wasn't impressed with any of the .40S&W loads we carried, they didn't seem any more effective than good 9mm loads. We eventually settled on .45acp and the complaints from the troops went away. As a side note, Law Enforcement firearms training has improved by leaps and bounds in the last couple decades.
I'm very sold on the 200gr Speer Gold Dot. It's not heavily loaded but it's hotter than the short & weak. A 200gr Gold Dot bullet will penetrate intermediate barriers well while still expanding in tissue. It's very accurate out of my SR1911. I'm carrying them when I carry my 1911 and wouldn't have any problem issuing them to adequately trained officers.
Believe it or not, you'd have done good with Winchester 40sw 180 Personal Protection. It's a budget ammo that does surprisingly well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBi9t7S0Fpg