I figured this would happen. My first 10mm (Glock 20 Gen3) has merely stoked the 10mm fire. So, as many of us probably are, I'm already looking for my next pistol. As much as I'd love to find a Smith 610, odds are that any I run across are going to be outside my current price range. I'm looking to stay in the $1000+/- range and would like to scratch my itch for both a new 10mm and a new 1911 at the same time and I'm looking for your input.
I know the "limitations" of the Delta Elite and, to be quite frank, would prefer a ramped barrel design. The Colt is still in the running merely because of its history and, in my opinion, they helped keep the 10mm alive.
The Kimber is the most economical in the TLE II configuration and seems to have a fairly good reputation, but Kimber's past issues have me a bit concerned. I know a lot of those issues are blown way out of proportion (the web sure makes it easy to complain doesn't it?) and I've heard that they have really ramped-up their QC in the past 12-16 months.
The new Remington R1911 10mm seems to be the Para Elite LS Hunter with different roll markings. That said, I have yet to see any reviews of this thing yet and, well, Remington has had a few issues with some of their designs of late. And I'm not 100% sure I want a 6" 1911 this go around. I am, however, always willing to listen to good arguments in favor of them.
Lastly we come to Dan Wesson. I came very close to buying a Razorback last spring but my penchant for research turned-up a report after report of galling. I honestly thought we were way past the days that this was a common issue. I've had the opportunity to shoot a few DWs, but they were all either well broken-in or duty kote models. As much as I'd love to pick-up a Silverback, that model is a bit out of the budget for now.
I'm probably overlooking a few options and apologize if you feel I've slighted your preferred brand or model. I'm looking for input on these particular firearms positive or negative. I know there are tons of reviews, posts, rants, and even "advertisements" masquerading as all the above all over the web, but I figure the "Home Forum of the 10mm" would be the best place to go.
P.S. With all that said, if you can make a great case for another particular model, please feel free to do so. I'm looking for a current production model that will see duty as both a range/field gun and a carry piece, so reliability is a must. I like the look and feel of the Sig P220 (except that bloody kraptek camo model) but those seem a might bit scarce. I love my CZs, so the Witness Match and Stock I are interesting, but have never even seen any of the Tangfolio models in person, much less handled one.
I am looking at the Colt for the same reasons as you.
I am told by people that own them that they are shooting Underwood out of the Colt with no issues....the 165 grain.
Springfield was supposed to be coming out with the Combat Operator in 10mm. I haven't seen it yet, so I am wondering if they are still working out the bugs.
If you like CZ's then a Match of Stock I will be a good fit. Meets the price requirement, shoot like a laser, and fit the hand like a glove. If they weren't so dang heavy they would still be my carry gun.
Looks like some pretty good options mentioned here already. Do you want a 5" or shorter barrel and all Steel construction?
I have a Colt and the Kimber Eclipes and am very pleased with both :) My Kimber did have a few problems when I first got it back in Jan 2016, So I had it sent back to the factory and 7 weeks later get it back and it shoots like a dream. So far no problems with the Colt. And yes I do shoot the hot stuff through both of my 10s many many rounds through both guns.
7 weeks? Ouch! Did they have to mine some ore to make the replacement parts? :))
Anywhere from 4.5" to 5" barrel, steel frame, and solid construction.
There's a show in town this weekend that I'll be hitting to see if they have any of the Tangfolio models that I can lay hands on. If CZ were to bring the 97B out in 10mm, I'd be a very happy man.
I was both excited and disappointed by the updated Delta Elite. If only they had ramped the barrel with the rest of the changes, but Colt loves their traditional set-ups.
So, let's try it this way. If you had $1100 to go buy a new 10mm for a friend who is just getting into the caliber what would you buy them?
To be honest now that I have one and have shot a few hundred rounds though it? I would get a Grand Power P40 and not look back. Shoots the 10 like a dream and leaves the empty shells in the same County as you.
Yurei,
You've identified a few 1911s. I'm a 1911 koolaid distributor so I'm gonna share my thoughts.
First 10mm 1911 was one of the first RIA's off the boat. I even gave CTD the business to get one from that first shipment. It was stolen from my truck earlier this year, but it was 100% reliable. As delivered, it did require hiking boots to comfortably retrieve spent brass. This was improved with some spring tuning.
I replaced it with a Silverback that's been in my hand or on my hip for the past couple weeks. I love Dan Wesson's firearms. This one is my favorite of all the DWs I've molested. I will admit I'd like a Bruin for a range toy/hunting piece, but ... I don't own pistols I won't carry so the full size 1911 is where I need to be. I've typed all this even though you don't think you can stretch the budget. I typed it 'cause Dan Wesson is deservedly proud of their firearms. Their QC inspection is beyond stringent. The release the guns that they don't think are perfectly finished as "Blems" or blemished guns. I bought one like this. I do not have a warranty on the finish, and I have a piece of paper with red circles around both sides of the dust cover. Dan Wesson claims it's pitted. I can't see the flaw outside in full sun. I was happy to get the blemished but 100% functional gun for less than $1400. Regarding the reports of galling ... IMO, the majority of the problems are the result of less than careful commissioning. They don't come out of the box ready for the range. There is shipping preservative to remove and smart shooters aren't shy with the lube on their points stainless to stainless contact.
Yes, the Remington is what was the Para. I dunno much from Remington, but the feedback is positive.
I don't do Kimber, but I don't do any 1911 without series 70 fire controls. I will say that they sure can make a pretty gun.
I'm not up to date on the updated Delta Elites, but the fact that Colt finally offers it with a bevertail grip safety is a good sign. I'm pretty sure I will still have to for Talo to commission a run of DEs with series 70 fire controls before I can look at a new one.
At any rate, I highly recommend Dan Wessons; I think Rock Island Armory is a good value proposition. Don't worry about the issues with stainless steel - they are the same issues anything that rubs stainless on stainless will exhibit - the good news is that preventive maintenance basically eliminates the concern is a decently tooled firearm.
Yep 7 weeks. The gun had a lot of problems to get sorted out but once I got it back it has been flawless !! So the ? would I buy another Kimber 10. Yes I would :) and would I buy another Colt Delta Elite ? Yes I would. There both very fine 10s and I enjoy shooting both them more then any of the other handguns I have except maybe my Colt 6'' Python :P
I've had the Dan Wesson bobtail commander, loved it but decided to go to a full size Delta. The Delta is now having the para tank cut into the frame with a Kart barrel, can't wait to get it back! I also have a 610-3 that I use for revolver matches and I feed it short and weaks mostly. I have fired a Kimber target in 10mm and I thought that it was just as good as my Delta. I'm not a fan of the Glock, way to much vibration through the lower to my hands, even with the 20C.
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Thanks for the advice everyone. Looks like I'll be saving up for a 2017 purchase at this time as my new gun funds just went to replace a computer that died on me this past weekend. :(
Maybe it's for the better. Who knows, Springfield's new Saint they are pushing so hard might just be a new 10mm after all! ;D
I always bristle a little when people claim that the owners of galled DW guns aren't doing their due diligence w/break-in and oiling. However it doesn't really matter, usually DW owners know everything so it's hard to argue w/them. I did a lot of research before I purchase my RZBK and was aware I could have an issue but you figure with a few out of a thousand having issues what's the chance I would get a bad one? Pretty good actually. In fact the day I made a fool of myself by posting my issues on-line in that "1911 forum" another person posted the exact same issue. We were pretty much run out of the forum on rails and basically told we didn't know how to break in a DW firearm. Fine then, I don't need a DW. I actually had done the 'lube and hand rack' a few hundred times, cleaned, re-oiled, etc before ever shooting it.
My galled Razorback is working o.k. now however it's not the gun I purchased. It has small voids on the rails left over from DW 'lapping' it in when I sent it back. The SS locks the slide back randomly, last time I shot it the FPS fell out. It's my least favorite 1911, I'd sell it but it's 'damaged goods' now. I only got 12 shots out of it before the slide locked back to the point only a rubber mallet could get it off.
I have an RIA Ultra Match 6" I like better, at least I can get through a mag with it (I am working on the DW but half heartily). I also have a 1006 which is fun but not sure how practical it is. My custom reflex ready 10mm long slide from Springfield s/b here in a couple months, got in before they shut the custom shop down for 'catch up'.
If it were me I would scratch the itch with an RIA just 'cause they work and they're relatively cheap. While Colt does have history on their side it would NOT sway me to get a Delta Elite, maybe a 38 super commander........
My 10mm Grail gun would be the Bren Ten project that VLTOR was working on for several years. They were in the process of manufacturing a new with improved (machined instead of the original Bren's cast parts) parts Bren Ten. They even had the rights to name it Bren Ten. I had the opportunity to handle an original Dornaus & Dixon Bren Ten at a Gun show back in the early 1990's and I loved the ergonomics. Unfortunately, VLTOR unexpectedly dropped the Bren Ten project (just before full production) with no plans to reconstitute it.
I've had 1911 pistols in .45 ACP and 10mm from Colt, Kimber, and now DW. The Colt and Kimbers are about the same quality, but, the DW pistols are the next level up in quality just under the Les Baers/Wilson Combat/Night Hawk Custom (I have a NHC 1911 in 10mm). I have a DW Silverback 10mm and I'd highly recommend DW for your 10mm. The Silverback is a little better than the Razorback and I have a special order for a Specialist Commander 10mm. Check out the DW line before buying one of the others you mentioned. And DW will take special orders.
I have four 10mm's and my "go to" is my Tanfoglio Hunter. Been a perfect gun so far.. shoots great has been totally reliable and at just under $1000 its a great buy IMHO
The only upgrade was a Wolf recoil spring.
I have three 10mms. An original blued Delta, a pre CZ Razorback and a Kimber Eclipse. All have been great shooters and are trouble free.
Tomcatt
Quote from: dred on October 13 2016 08:47:36 PM MDT
Yurei,
You've identified a few 1911s. I'm a 1911 koolaid distributor so I'm gonna share my thoughts.
First 10mm 1911 was one of the first RIA's off the boat. I even gave CTD the business to get one from that first shipment. It was stolen from my truck earlier this year, but it was 100% reliable. As delivered, it did require hiking boots to comfortably retrieve spent brass. This was improved with some spring tuning.
I replaced it with a Silverback that's been in my hand or on my hip for the past couple weeks. I love Dan Wesson's firearms. This one is my favorite of all the DWs I've molested. I will admit I'd like a Bruin for a range toy/hunting piece, but ... I don't own pistols I won't carry so the full size 1911 is where I need to be. I've typed all this even though you don't think you can stretch the budget. I typed it 'cause Dan Wesson is deservedly proud of their firearms. Their QC inspection is beyond stringent. The release the guns that they don't think are perfectly finished as "Blems" or blemished guns. I bought one like this. I do not have a warranty on the finish, and I have a piece of paper with red circles around both sides of the dust cover. Dan Wesson claims it's pitted. I can't see the flaw outside in full sun. I was happy to get the blemished but 100% functional gun for less than $1400. Regarding the reports of galling ... IMO, the majority of the problems are the result of less than careful commissioning. They don't come out of the box ready for the range. There is shipping preservative to remove and smart shooters aren't shy with the lube on their points stainless to stainless contact.
Yes, the Remington is what was the Para. I dunno much from Remington, but the feedback is positive.
I don't do Kimber, but I don't do any 1911 without series 70 fire controls. I will say that they sure can make a pretty gun.
I'm not up to date on the updated Delta Elites, but the fact that Colt finally offers it with a bevertail grip safety is a good sign. I'm pretty sure I will still have to for Talo to commission a run of DEs with series 70 fire controls before I can look at a new one.
At any rate, I highly recommend Dan Wessons; I think Rock Island Armory is a good value proposition. Don't worry about the issues with stainless steel - they are the same issues anything that rubs stainless on stainless will exhibit - the good news is that preventive maintenance basically eliminates the concern is a decently tooled firearm.
Other than the new Remington that I know nothing about I agree on all points in this post.
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Along with a few others have suggested, I have a RIA 10mm TAC, 10mm in bull barrel, 4.25 inch barrel, I love it! Especially for the price. I plan on using it as a hunting gun mostly, had bottom rail as well. In FL, over 50 yard shot is rare, so 4.25" barrel seems fine to me. I think it's a great product for the money, and you can get parts cheap and easy, even on EBAY. it's accurate as hell, and a great piece to build from. Look them up on google, and all I found was good reviews, accuracy, tight slides, etc. And, again, it's a great bargain, it's kind of the work horse or F150 of the 10mm group in my eyes, if you scratch it, drop it, etc. You won't cry at cost of replacement parts.
Just a thought for a second 10mm.
Almost forgot, Rok Island Armory has a ramped bull barrel, probably part of the reason for the reliability in them, so plus point on that
I've owned a Witness Steel, a Witness Match Elite, a G20, and a DW Razorback. I still own the Razorback. It has seized up on me once - but I'm pretty sure it was my fault in not lubing it up. The G20 was great, but... it was a Glock.
I loved both the Witnesses, but they came at a time when I needed cash for medical bills. Of them all, I've loved my Razorback the most. As long as I take care of it, it takes care of me. When I pony up for another 10mm, I'd lean towards a Rock Island for a cheaper 1911 to carry in the desert, or something polymer (please... don't tell anyone I just said that).
Pick up a Colt Delta Elite and have a ramped/fully supported bbl fitted. I had a Clark Customs fitted to my Delta......and now I shoot Underwood whenever I want to.
I currently have 4 1911's in 10mm. Two Delta's and two Dan Wesson's (Razorback and Silverback). I have owned others but these are my keepers. They have all been great guns. Most of the problems I have seen others have with 1911 10mm's is not tuning them to the ammo they are using. If you are going to use hot ammo you will need to work with it and find the right spring combo. If you do not, you will probably break parts and or where the gun faster. I am talking hot ammo. Off the shelf for the most part will be trouble free. As a side note, I lap my tight 1911's in with Semi Chrome or Mothers mag polish before ever shooting them. I take the gun completely apart, put some of the polish on the rails and cycle the slide a hundred or two times while watching TV. I then clean it very well, lube it and reassemble it. This has worked great with my Dan Wesson's as well as a couple Les Baers (probably the tightest 1911's made). I love the 1911's. If you are willing to work with them a little they are very reliable and will give you many years of service.
Take look at the Tanfoglio line that EAA imports. I think they offer more 10mm firearm models than the rest of the industry combined. These pistols are based on the time proven CZ pistol design, and from what I understand is based on the Browning High Power. And their full size frame carries 14 rounds in the Mec-Gar magazines, readily available at reasonable prices. Most of those others, especially 1911 based, offer only single stack 8 or so.
I have 2 Tanfoglio steel framed models including the 6 inch Witness Hunter (under $1,000). That is a fantastic shooting gun but big because of 6 inch barrel and heavy being all steel (a good thing for 10mm). I also have a Full Size steel Witness (~$500) which I used as a starter 10mm to see if I wanted to get into that caliber. Also a great shooting pistol. If I were to start fresh again I would go for the Witness Elite Match right from the start. Adjustable sights and lighter trigger are a bonus.
While Glock is popular my opinion and (limited) experience is the polymer frame and polymer trigger has nasty vibration and recoil when shooting powerful/max loads. The pistol is OK for lighter and standard factory load ammo. Steel smooths it all out, which really helps with enjoyment of shooting lots of high powered 10mm. Glock may offer lots of aftermarket upgrades but with Tanfoglio Witness you don't need any of that except a stiffer recoil spring for max loads and, of course, more magazines. My shooting buddy's $600 Glock is now an over $1,000 Glock with all the upgrades, but is still polymer frame.
I too think highly of the Witness line of guns. The only drawback is they are quite heavy and large for their capacities. This makes for better shooting, but in a carry gun it is a trade off. My Para P16/10mm is just a bit smaller, and just a bit lighter and has +2 rounds. The polymer framed variants would be lighter, but still are big guns.
I would also comment that they share very little with the P-35, AKA Hi Power/High Power. They are visually similar, but internally the only thing they share is a variation of the linkless cam to lock/unlock the action. And most modern auto-loading pistols have some variation of this same action.
If you want a steel gun, it is indeed hard to beat the EAA line.
Yes I overstated the Hi-Power similarity. The barrel lock-up is similar and I think that lends itself to less barrel rotation compared to the more modern and simpler barrel lock-up pistol. Better accuracy?And it, like the CZ design, is significantly different than the 1911 designs. I was trying to draw that fundamental difference when comparing Tanfoglio to the Dan Wesson, Kimber, Colt, RIA, Para, etc models. Tanfoglio is not a 1911 design and that includes Tanfoglio being a double stack magazine for greater capacity.
Thanks for helping me clarify that.