Heard about this story some time in the last year but came across it again today. Riveting account of survival with elements reminiscent of the famous 1986 Miami shootout. On this occasion the Officer was carrying a 45acp in a Glock 21.
To say the least, I find the Officers tale sobering and thought provoking.
https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
Yes that one has been around and it makes plenty of sense to me these days...Those being in law enforcement, in light of recent crimes on cops has things much like a war in the streets. They should have tactical supply vehicles responding for resupply of ammo and guns as needed.
The wanna be thugs or gangbanger will shoot a spray of bullets and being jacked up on drugs makes for a serious perpetrator. Also taking in account multiple accomplices joining in the fights, it can and will be savage! They never know whom will jump into the fight either, could even be a baby mama, or any other wanna be!
In a recent video, a guy grabbed a very short AK type pistol and had bullets spraying all over as he shot at another person at a fuel station. Social unrest is playing out every day as the economy worsens and political tensions unfold!
Best you can do these days is be very aware of your surroundings, practice some proficiency drills, carry a firearm and some extra ammo and pray that you will never need it to defend yourself or family! ???
Wanted to learn more about the circumstances of this event and here is what I've found:
1. Shootout occurred in 2008.
2. Officer was carrying a Glock 21, 45acp loaded with 230 grain Gold Dot JHP.
3. Perpetrator was hit 14 times and still actively trying to kill the officer.
-Multiple hits to the chest and abdomen: both lungs, heart, liver were hit.
-Multiple hits in the arms and legs.
4. While the Perpetrator may have been dead on his feet he was anything but down and out of the fight after absorbing 14 hits (several of which
would have ultimately been lethal).
5. Took 3 more hits to the head to put the guy down and finally out of fight.
-2 in the face and 1 high on the head.
6. For a total of 17 hits of 45acp 230gr Gold Dot.....
7. No drugs were found in the Perpetrators system.
And that officer now carries a 9mm....I believe a Glock 17.
I think a better title for your thread would have been 'LACK of handgun stopping power is real!'. :)
Thx for posting that; I had not yet seen it. Reminded me to reread Massad Ayoob's comments 25 years after the FBI-Miami firefight...
http://americanhandgunner.com/25-years-after-the-fbi-firefight-the-late-emerging/
10mm would have prevented this. ;)
Quote from: 4949shooter on September 06 2016 07:15:36 PM MDT
10mm would have prevented this. ;)
Perhaps. But training (or the lack thereof) was a much larger factor. We still have to hit our targets, and at best, we're only doing that at a rate of 20%. 12" penetration is not required to shut down a nervous system. But that doesn't matter if the target is missed, altogether. In 1986, the 10mm wasn't an option, but .357 and .41 magnums were. These weren't politically correct at the time, and aren't now for law enforcement. The .357M was acceptable, but not universal. It should have been. I carried a .357M (with .357M Silvertips, which I paid for) until about 1993. I traded effectiveness for capacity. It seemed like the thing to do, at the time. I was lucky, and never had to test the decision. My primary carry now is 10mm or (full power, no holds barred) .357S. I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT OVERPENETRATION. I don't care much about political correctness, either, which is what that is. I train now, more so than before I retired. Get the job done! End.
Multiple hits to the chest and abdomen: both lungs, heart, liver were hit. 3hits to head it's not training problem it's a ammo problem. Gold dot opens up to soon in 45acp and lack sectional density as well.
Didn't find anything on possible bullet(s) failure to expand.... (even a single .451" hole & 410ft-lbs seems serious to me).
For what it's worth; the 45acp 230gr Gold Dot has a good reputation. It's on Doctor Gary Roberts' best choices for self defense ammunition list.
Performed quite well in a recent standardized, consistent test using clear ballistics block.
http://www.luckygunner.com/bulk-45-acp-ammo-45acp230jhpsgd-20#geltest
And,.... how do we know FACTUALLY that a rifle would have been better? i.e., how many shots with .223 would it have taken?
Departments are using Federal HST rounds,weather. 45 or 9mm. It's a good modern round used by law enforcement. Some go +p. They will never go 10mm, unless terrain calls for it.
Quote from: DM1906 on September 06 2016 10:41:00 PM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on September 06 2016 07:15:36 PM MDT
10mm would have prevented this. ;)
Perhaps. But training (or the lack thereof) was a much larger factor. We still have to hit our targets, and at best, we're only doing that at a rate of 20%. 12" penetration is not required to shut down a nervous system. But that doesn't matter if the target is missed, altogether. In 1986, the 10mm wasn't an option, but .357 and .41 magnums were. These weren't politically correct at the time, and aren't now for law enforcement. The .357M was acceptable, but not universal. It should have been. I carried a .357M (with .357M Silvertips, which I paid for) until about 1993. I traded effectiveness for capacity. It seemed like the thing to do, at the time. I was lucky, and never had to test the decision. My primary carry now is 10mm or (full power, no holds barred) .357S. I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT OVERPENETRATION. I don't care much about political correctness, either, which is what that is. I train now, more so than before I retired. Get the job done! End.
Agree. Training / ability to hit one's target under stress trumps all else.
I've read this account before as well as many, many others in the 28 years that I worked in law enforcement. I read the arguments about 9mm v .45 and shot placement. But, the common theme of these accounts is that the bad guy was shot numerous times (in some cases 9mm 12 or more times and in other cases like this one .45 ACP) and people complain the officer did not place his shots correctly. In life/death situations you don't have the luxury of perfect shot placement like you would on a practice range shooting at a paper target that doesn't move, duck for cover, or shoot back. I agree with carrying a 10mm (full loads, not watered down 10mm) and is what I carry now that I'm retired. Shot placement is key, but, unfortunately, in a life and death fight you won't always have that luxury. Even most all LE agencies train to hit center of mass which increases your chance of at least hitting the target in a stress filled environment.
Quote from: macc283 on September 06 2016 11:55:41 PM MDT
Multiple hits to the chest and abdomen: both lungs, heart, liver were hit. 3hits to head it's not training problem it's a ammo problem. Gold dot opens up to soon in 45acp and lack sectional density as well.
Considering that the perp was hit in both lungs, heart and liver, and that the emergency room staff could not infuse blood fast enough to overcome the bleed out rate, I think the ammo performed about as well as pistol ammo can. This is why we issue rifles firing high velocity ammo to soldiers, and this is the perfect case in point for why patrol rifles should be readily available to officers in their cars, not hidden away in the trunk.
Quote from: Buckeye 50 on September 07 2016 08:11:43 AM MDT
And,.... how do we know FACTUALLY that a rifle would have been better? i.e., how many shots with .223 would it have taken?
Well, the fact is a rifle was not involved in this fight, so we can't know factually.
But, rifles have far, far, far superior terminal ballistics to handguns. Assuming the officer could have made the same hits on target to lungs, heart and liver that he made with his 45 ACP, but with his 5.56 patrol rifle shooting good ammo, such as Hornady's 75 grain TAP rounds, I think it is safe to assume that the heart and liver would have been completely shredded, not just perforated. Same for the lungs.
The exsanguination rate would have been exponentially higher, and the fight would have stopped sooner.
Those have been the facts in other comparative shootings.
The big unknowns here are when in the fight those hits were made. Deploying the patrol rifle would have been a different course, and we can't know the outcome.
You're exactly correct. This is a known fact that pistols are defensive weapons and long arms are offensive weapons. Otherwise the armed forces would issue pistols instead of rifles if pistols were efficient enough to get the job done. Unless you get into the higher velocity (newer) .357 magnum or .41 magnum and 10mm and more powerful cartridges, a handgun is not going to be enough.
The velocities of handgun loads in .357, .41 mag, & 10mm are not enough to make a difference. It takes a much higher velocity to make a difference, such as in a rifle.
Makes me wonder why we don't all carry 9X25 loaded with 85-90 grain copper bullets. Give you 2200 fps from a 5" barrel.
Quote from: sqlbullet on September 18 2016 08:26:55 AM MDT
Makes me wonder why we don't all carry 9X25 loaded with 85-90 grain copper bullets. Give you 2200 fps from a 5" barrel.
WOW! 969 ft-lbs ... that's .44mag energy ... can it really do that?
I've forgotten what a 9x25 is ... I THINK maybe it's a 10mm case necked down to 9mm. So maybe any 10mm gun could shoot it, with just a barrel replacement??
I'm surprised you could get that out of necked-down 10mm brass ... in fact, hard to see how you could exceed 10mm energy (approx 700 ft-lb).
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=954&CAT=241
The Glock 20 with a barrel swap only supports 9x25, 40 s&w, 357 sig and 10mm . All same case size at one end, stock mags work fine
One of a few cases where a handgun has not been immediately effective in stopping a threat. There are many, many, more cases where a handgun has been effective, as we are seeing in the news lately.
I already have bad dreams where my bullets just bounce off the bad guy. I don't need to be reading about this. :)
That is surprising. The officer hit the vitals several time and the fight's still on. And a 45acp WTH? They're supposed to be good man stopper. Only thing I can think off is the Gold Dots working too good by opening too soon.
I like the XTP better and all I ever carried was XTP and still am with my G29 10mm. It's the Underwood 10mm 200 XTP I'm carrying now and I have a couple boxes of Hornady in stock along with the Underwood.
Yesterday I got this from Amazon and I just ordered two G20 15 rnd mags to increase my round counts. Right now I have 15+12+10 on my belt. My G29 have 11 rounds.
(https://s25.postimg.org/ucuomrt7j/S5030858.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ylzeoxwgr/)uploading images (https://postimage.org/)
Just something to keep in mind...The current world record for someone holding their breath, IE: depriving their brain of fresh oxygen, which would happen with the loss of blood flow...is 22 minutes.
How do we know that some people just don't react in an exaggerated manner after multiple severe shocks to the body with a natural adrenaline over dose?
We like to think that simply shutting off the heart is an automatic full system shut down. That is what in our experience and general reporting is "The Norm", how do we know this officer didn't find the one guy who is Abby Normal. I often wonder what would happen to someone like a deep sea free diver who took several shots to the heart. Granted, this is assuming the shock itself didn't kill them, but here you have someone who has trained their bodies to go for a long time without taking a fresh breath. Who doesn't drop into unconsciousness like anyone else would. Who is used to moving in a fluid environment while holding their breath for minutes at a time and then shooting a spear at a fish underwater, then fighting that fish underwater as they fight their own way to the surface. At what point does "Another Bullet" just blend into the shocks the body has already taken and is no longer effected by the impact? You already stopped the heart, so if there is no pump, they really aren't going to bleed except for what is pushed out when they actually move from muscle contractions. Their brain is still active and going. It is still making decisions as if they were simply holding their breath even though there is no blood pumping fresh oxygen through their system.
This is just something to ponder. I am in no way claiming this guy was a professional free diver or anything of the sort. Just posing the question of "What happens when the office is facing someone who is not the norm physically? Or who's mental stability has snapped and his body is simply operating on muscle memory?"
While that may be true I think we'd know more if we have the autopsy report as to the ballistics. That will take out the guesswork.
Anybody know why we generally hunt deer with .308's, .30'06's, .270's, and such? It's because deer - even "little" 200 pound ones, don't know when to lay down and die! So, we use the principle of OVERKILL! We hit them with a round that produces gruesome wounds that cause the animal to drop pretty quickly...and even then the outcome isn't certain if the shooter is off in his or her aim!
Does any State ALLOW someone to go deer hunting with a .45 ACP? If so I want to meet the 'tards that approved it. Regardless of hype and wishful thinking, the .45 ACP in standard loads hits with a whopping 350-400 lb-ft of kinetic energy...and worse, it's going WELL subsonic which eliminates any and all advantages CLEARLY evident in the strike of a supersonic round, and quadruply-so of the strike of bullets traveling at mach2.5+! Add to this that FEW brands of "performance" ammo actually chronograph out to their published numbers.
The "lowly" .223 55 grain "ball" round from a 16" barrel absolutely WILL put a man down in his tracks with anything better than a superficial strike for a couple of very good reasons backed up by something known as physics. That tiny bullet is traveling something like 2,900 fps...almost 3x the speed of sound which means the bullet is AHEAD of the shock wave, and it's the shock wave that creates the entry damage! Then, upon impact that 55 grain slug, instantly yaws violently, and snaps in half at the cannelure, each moving divergently to extend the damage, and generally dumping most if not all of it's approximately 1,200 lb-ft of kinetic energy into the recipient. THIS is why you carry an M-16 to a rifle fight and not a .45 ACP! THIS is why the guy in the '86 Miami shootout took out an entire FBI field office before finally going down to HIS "14" some-odd hits." In that little party the 9mm was blamed (certainly they would never blame the lack of tactics and preparation), and yet, the 9mm then, and the 9mm today is exactly the same...the SAME 9mm the FBI now claims is the cat's meow! Is anyone REALLY following their lead?
The problem really? The 9mm is a 330-400 lb-ft of KE round....the ballistic EQUAL to the .45 ACP. So they eventually landed on the .40 S&W but in a loading that is....wait for it, the ballistic EQUAL of the first two! Factually, all the rounds can be boosted...the 9mm can match loads up to about 500 lb-ft with traditional projectiles, the .40 S&W can push over 600 lb-ft with traditional projectiles, and the .45 ACP can be boosted to a little over 500 lb-ft as long as it's being kept somewhere close to the ".45 ACP" pressure loadings.
While the 9mm and .40 S&W are the fastest, neither is much above the SoS and unless we're talking +P, no .45 ACP rounds are...with "traditional" bullets. (Liberty makes a nifty 78 grain copper round that I personally chronographed at over 1,900 fps from a Colt Defender 3" barrel! THAT is a bullet that will act "most like" the strike of a .223 round, and completely spend over 600 lb-ft in the recipient. Liberty also makes the round in 9mm and .40 S&W, yet as with all rounds that depart too far from the madding crowd, they are limited in overall application.
Before the semiautomatic pistol craze took the country by storm, the .357 Magnum was considered the king of handgun rounds, and for excellent reason. Even in watered down factory loads, when given enough barrel, the .357 Magnum can exceed 700-800 lb-ft of KE and IS an effective "man-stopper" with the appropriate weight bullet. NOTE I am not talking about snubbies with no barrel and underloads for the recoil sensitive. I'm talking about true, brute-force .357 Magnum loads.
Both the .41 and .44 Magnum eclipse the .357 Magnum by a wide margin and both are not simply effective man-stoppers, they are effective man-KILLERS and for very good reason - they exceed the minimum threshold of KINETIC ENERGY with large, relatively heavy slugs that create massive tissue destruction and turn any bone they bump into into secondary fragments! In the medical business one sees a LOT of .22LR, .38 Spl, 9mm, and even .45 ACP "wounds come into an emergency room, yet one SELDOM sees anyone "wounded" with the larger rounds in an ER...why? Because they generally go straight to the morgue without the need to pass go! And let me qualify what I mean by "larger" rounds...I mean MORE POWERFUL rounds! Despite the .45 ACP's diameter it isn't really a "powerful" round...ballistically equal to the 9mm, so yes, if you feel happy carrying a 9mm you're as well "powered" as the guy who chooses the .45 ACP.
NOBODY is going to take a .44 Magnum round to the face, or forehead and need "more" before they stop....NOBODY! That round will explode the skull and evacuate a significant portion of the contents, without which, the person simply cannot continue their animal blood lust.
Enter the 10mm. The round Jeff Cooper helped create and the bungling FBI helped to almost kill. In "real" loadings the round is capable of 650-850 lb-ft of KE and that's before we get into longer than factory barrels. A "mid-range" load pushes a 180 grain slug at 550 lb-ft of KE which is "only" 200 lb-ft BETTER than the "common load" .45 ACP! A G-20 stoked with 16 rounds of Underwood 155 grain XTP, EACH round delivering a measured 800+ lb-ft of kinetic energy measured 10 ft from the muzzle...approximately TWICE the MEASURED KE of the .45 ACP Gold Dot that almost certainly did NOT chrono out to it's hyped velocity claim. As it happens this particular 10mm load is VERY similar to the old .357 145-158 grain loads of yore except from the autoloader you get 2 shy of 3X as many shots and that's before you snap on a +2 Base extension! THIS is the round and the POWER load the FBI claimed they wanted and needed, then instantly "spec'd" a load less than HALF as powerful!
Do I have confidence that the 10mm will blow open a human skull....absolutely...at over 1,500 fps and 800 lb-ft of KE....yes, yes I do. Do I have confidence in it's ability to deliver serious wounding and "stopping" power? YES...it's ABSOLUTELY BETTER BY FAR than ANY of the current "police" calibers! Proof? Proof is the RESURGENCE of the 10mm as it has been discovered by hunters and sportsmen who want a potent backup handgun. 10mm Hog-hunting is quite popular...think Hogs just lay down and die with a harsh word?
Sadly there is SO MUCH disinformation out there that it's no wonder so many people are completely bamboozled.
As for the "myth" of stopping power....HANDGUN stopping power at that, YES IT EXISTS just as rifle round stopping power exits, only, you have to be shooting a cartridge "big enough" for the animal you need to stop! If you don't "believe" in stopping power then WHY grab a 12 gauge? Why not everybody just run around with .22LR's and "make each shot count" for the instant CNS stop? Because we all KNOW that's silly. The problem is rounds like the 9mm and .45 ACP, and even the .40 were never built to "STOP" anyone...but to produce a wound...a "casualty" and as such they are of limited "power." Growing up in the country, someone showing up with a .45 ACP or 9mm to carry out in the woods for use against predator attack, or for "offensive" use as required, would have been laughed clean out of the county! EVERYONE knew it was ludicrous to carry such a gun over a good .44 Magnum, or heavy loaded .357 Magnum. Well, the 10mm is ACTUALLY the modern "equivalent" of the old revolver magnums. The problem is the revolver cartridges don't translate well to autopistols....which is why the 10mm is a great round.
There IS another round....for those enamored of the .45 diameter and want an autoloader. The .460 Rowland! Now THAT is a serious hand cannon that delivers the goods!
In my G-20 frame with LWD Long slide and 6.61" barrel with recoil comp and 24 pound spring, the .460R slammed out Underwood's 185 grain jacketed at 1,750 fps MEASURED! (By comparison my 72 ounce, 6" barrel Desert Eagle .44 Mag with PMC 180 grainers clocked just 1,575 fps for 992 lb-ft of KE). That's a whole lotta suds and NOBODY is going to soak one of those up and beat his chest for more! That's 1,258 lb-ft of KE from a 34 ounce gun that can bang out all 11 in less than 2 seconds with amazing control (thanks to the effective comp). A 255 grain Underwood HC clocked over 1,350 for just over 1,000 lb-ft of KE...in a hard cast slug that will penetrate...and it feeds perfectly every time. But the problem is...the gun does have "some" kick...about equal to the 10mm, which I personally find quite pleasant in the Glock frame, but more than most seem able to tolerate on their little beaters.
So why do I carry any of the smaller calibers? Because it's all about convenience versus probability. The probability I'm gonna need to shoot someone is VERY LOW, so hey, I grab my Defender, or my Sig P228, or My S&W M-642, or my Beretta Tomcat, or my Kaur P-380, or even my Phoenix Arms HP-22! BUT...if I KNEW I was headed out into a gunfight I'm sure I'd grab something a bit larger....like my Linberta semiautomatic 12 gauge with 9 rounds of Brenneke rifled slugs on tap, or my AR-15 with a Magpul 60 round drum snapped in place, or for sheer meanness, my S&W M-500 6.5" with 380 grain half-inch "slugs" making just over 2,000 lb-ft of KE....that will ABSOLUTELY be a "one shot stop" on a human torso! You SHOW me the man who can take just ONE...and I'll give him another!
I get a little tongue-in-cheek, but in reality it's sad that ANYONE ever walks out of the house thinking their 9mm or .45 ACP is even likely to put someone down with a single hit - yes it CAN happen, but it's not likely. So then what really IS the point of carrying a gun with 8 rounds, or even 14 rounds when it takes ALL of them to put one dude down? For the same size and bulk as a G-21 simply SWITCH to the G-20 and DOUBLE the power? Why not? Because of deliberate disinformation that is agenda driven by those seeking to attain and hold some degree of power or perceived knowledge.
As I said at the beginning, ANYBODY who is using the FBI's choices as a model for their own...<peels of laughter erupt>!
And for the record, my "carry" guns are almost always either my Glock 20, stoked with Underwood's 140 grain solid copper "penetrator" rounds, or my G-29 carrying Underwood's excellent 155 grain XTP round that clocked 700 lb-ft of KE from the 3.7" barrel. It carries a 15 round mag with a grip extender...except for barrel, they're about the same.
When someone said that the 9mm meet the bare minimum for penetration and all that. I thought bare minimum hah! I ain't going for bare minimum my friend, when I want to stop the threat I mean right now and no bare minimum BS are gonna make me confident about it.
I trust my G29 with Uw 200 XTP to just do that. ::)
I saw stuff about light loads at hyper velocities that show tremendous foot pound energies but rather poor penetration in comparison to heavy loads at lower velocities with lower foot pounds. This is why I carry heavy. 16" penetration is what I want.
Yep. When I retire and won't be allowed to carry hollowpoints here in NJ any longer, I will be looking at the Underwood Penetrator and Defender loads in my G20 (and other carry platforms).
Git some!
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 11 2016 07:47:30 PM MDT
Yep. When I retire and won't be allowed to carry hollowpoints here in NJ any longer, I will be looking at the Underwood Penetrator and Defender loads in my G20 (and other carry platforms).
Git some!
I wonder if the price will ever come down, or is the cost of copper the only reason for the current pricing?
They look impressive in gel tests but different story in real life. No better than the hard ball.
Quote from: Mike_Fontenot on October 12 2016 08:00:46 AM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 11 2016 07:47:30 PM MDT
Yep. When I retire and won't be allowed to carry hollowpoints here in NJ any longer, I will be looking at the Underwood Penetrator and Defender loads in my G20 (and other carry platforms).
Git some!
I wonder if the price will ever come down, or is the cost of copper the only reason for the current pricing?
I think they are expensive because each bullet is individually cut.
Quote from: Olgo on October 12 2016 09:43:19 AM MDT
They look impressive in gel tests but different story in real life. No better than the hard ball.
Are you referring to the LeHigh fluted bullet?
Did you see an actual case where the bullet didn't work better than hardball?
.
Quote from: my_old_glock on October 13 2016 09:49:17 AM MDT
Quote from: Olgo on October 12 2016 09:43:19 AM MDT
They look impressive in gel tests but different story in real life. No better than the hard ball.
Are you referring to the LeHigh fluted bullet?
Did you see an actual case where the bullet didn't work better than hardball?
I went to link the site about it and I saw my mistake there. It was a different type of bullet. My mistake.
.
Quote from: kilibreaux on October 11 2016 04:58:21 AM MDTSadly there is SO MUCH disinformation out there that it's no wonder so many people are completely bamboozled.
As for the "myth" of stopping power....HANDGUN stopping power at that, YES IT EXISTS just as rifle round stopping power exits, only, you have to be shooting a cartridge "big enough" for the animal you need to stop!
Yup. Good Post!
Quote from: REDLINE on October 28 2016 11:54:51 PM MDT
Quote from: kilibreaux on October 11 2016 04:58:21 AM MDTyou have to be shooting a cartridge "big enough" for the animal you need to stop!
Yup. Good Post!
Apparently, some states require a minimum bullet diameter to legally hunt a particular type of game. What exactly is that requirement based on? For example, Underwood has a 270 WSM 150gr cartridge that has 3305 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, versus a 30-06 159gr cartridge that has 3160 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. Does that 30-06 REALLY more reliably drop that large animal, compared to the 270 WSM? If so, WHY?
Quote from: Mike_Fontenot on October 29 2016 07:29:47 AM MDT
Quote from: REDLINE on October 28 2016 11:54:51 PM MDT
Quote from: kilibreaux on October 11 2016 04:58:21 AM MDTyou have to be shooting a cartridge "big enough" for the animal you need to stop!
Yup. Good Post!
Apparently, some states require a minimum bullet diameter to legally hunt a particular type of game. What exactly is that requirement based on?
That's a good question. Though sometimes I think I retain more sanity not knowing. Like why is it common now-a-days for a varmint cartridge like the 223 to be allowed for harvesting deer? The answer(s) to that I do not agree with but it feels like I'm in the minority.
QuoteFor example, Underwood has a 270 WSM 150gr cartridge that has 3305 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, versus a 30-06 150gr cartridge that has 3160 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. Does that 30-06 REALLY more reliably drop that large animal, compared to the 270 WSM? If so, WHY?
If the same make/model bullet are used for each then I would very basically say no. But there's so much more to understanding even that specific comparison in how each load will wound differently far beyond caliber difference. To keep the comparison more realistic between calibers I would also compare bullets of similar sectional density (the ratio of a bullet's length and weight).
The 150gr bullet in the 270 has a sectional density of .279 where the one in the 30-06 is only .226. To get to .279 in the 30-06 a 180-190gr bullet would have to be used which puts sectional density in the .271-.286 range. Or to match up better to the 30-06 150gr bullet use a 270 bullet lighter than 130gr, which is fairly uncommon without going to a varmint bullet, but comes in at .242.
Otherwise with your example, in keeping with the same construction bullet being used in each, similar velocity and energy levels, and both in 150gr bullets and same shot placement at the same distance at common to shorter shooting distances, the 270 WSM will generally penetrate further with a narrower wound channel and the 30-06 will generally penetrate less with a wider wound channel. And if any parameters are changed then the outcome of each will change to some degree too.
Usually a state lists more criteria for a big game hunting cartridge than just caliber. For example, where 22s are allowed usually they also stipulate them being a centerfire round. Or for handgun cartridges they'll note some specific minimum between caliber, energy level and/or barrel length.
In New Jersey, we can hunt coyote with a centerfire rifle. But it has to be .25 caliber or less.
Tragic accident; deepest condolences to the Officer's family and
friends. Based on details found in t article hard to view
as anything other than negligent discharge.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/01/california-sheriffs-deputy-accidentally-shot-killed-by-colleague.html
Seemed like the appropriate thread to reflect on this topic. One individual took 13
rounds (many in vitals) with premium 45acp duty ammo to put down and another
individual is taken out after catching a single accidental backup sidearm hit to the torso.
Tragic.
Quote from: Olgo on October 11 2016 06:31:22 AM MDT
When someone said that the 9mm meet the bare minimum for penetration and all that. I thought bare minimum hah! I ain't going for bare minimum my friend, when I want to stop the threat I mean right now and no bare minimum BS are gonna make me confident about it.
I trust my G29 with Uw 200 XTP to just do that. ::)
I saw stuff about light loads at hyper velocities that show tremendous foot pound energies but rather poor penetration in comparison to heavy loads at lower velocities with lower foot pounds. This is why I carry heavy. 16" penetration is what I want.
Many 9mm loads far exceed the minimum FBI requirement. Many of them make the 16" penetration that you want. In fact, my 9mm carry load goes around 18" thru 4LD which is the test that most accurately represents how a bullet will perform in actual shootings. My 10mm carry loads, a 180gr Gold Dot and the Critical Duty actually penetrate less in that test than my 9mm carry load.
I agree that some 9mm ammo does the job but when it comes to an aggressor who is big boned and mean/high on drugs it'd better work.
My Uw 10mm 200 XTP is bigger and heavier and instead of a push it shoves.
Quote from: kilibreaux on October 11 2016 04:58:21 AM MDT
Anybody know why we generally hunt deer with .308's, .30'06's, .270's, and such? It's because deer - even "little" 200 pound ones, don't know when to lay down and die! So, we use the principle of OVERKILL! We hit them with a round that produces gruesome wounds that cause the animal to drop pretty quickly...and even then the outcome isn't certain if the shooter is off in his or her aim!
Does any State ALLOW someone to go deer hunting with a .45 ACP? If so I want to meet the 'tards that approved it. Regardless of hype and wishful thinking, the .45 ACP in standard loads hits with a whopping 350-400 lb-ft of kinetic energy...and worse, it's going WELL subsonic which eliminates any and all advantages CLEARLY evident in the strike of a supersonic round, and quadruply-so of the strike of bullets traveling at mach2.5+! Add to this that FEW brands of "performance" ammo actually chronograph out to their published numbers.
The "lowly" .223 55 grain "ball" round from a 16" barrel absolutely WILL put a man down in his tracks with anything better than a superficial strike for a couple of very good reasons backed up by something known as physics. That tiny bullet is traveling something like 2,900 fps...almost 3x the speed of sound which means the bullet is AHEAD of the shock wave, and it's the shock wave that creates the entry damage! Then, upon impact that 55 grain slug, instantly yaws violently, and snaps in half at the cannelure, each moving divergently to extend the damage, and generally dumping most if not all of it's approximately 1,200 lb-ft of kinetic energy into the recipient. THIS is why you carry an M-16 to a rifle fight and not a .45 ACP! THIS is why the guy in the '86 Miami shootout took out an entire FBI field office before finally going down to HIS "14" some-odd hits." In that little party the 9mm was blamed (certainly they would never blame the lack of tactics and preparation), and yet, the 9mm then, and the 9mm today is exactly the same...the SAME 9mm the FBI now claims is the cat's meow! Is anyone REALLY following their lead?
There are a number of states that allow deer hunting including Elk with a .45 ACP and there are plenty of videos out there showing immediate drops from one shot. There are plenty of videos showing hogs dropping with one shot from a 9mm. There are plenty of others showing hogs, deer, etc., running a substantial distance after good hits with significantly larger calibers such as those you mentioned. It is not as simple as a large enough caliber and they instantly drop with a good hit.
The lowly 55 grain .223 or even faster 5.56mm ball round doesn't perform well unless it yaws. That is not always the case. It tends to perform better in a larger person or as it tends to yaw too late thru the torso of a small or skinny person. Doesn't work well thru a thigh due to that reason. In order for .223/5.56mm rounds to be more reliable, they still need a bullet that expands while still penetrating deep enough to reach vitals thru various angles or thru an arm, etc. Some terminal ballistics experts aren't so sure that even rifle velocities are adequate to create more damage due to that shock wave. They also mention that in order to create damage to organs from that velocity it has to be much higher than any common rifle round as in order to do damage it has to be higher than the speed of sound thru tissue which is greater than 4500 fps.
Penetration ALONE isn't the whole story: your body is being constantly penetrated through-and-through by tiny particles, and you're never aware of it. Similarly, energy (ft-lbs), or momentum (lb-seconds) isn't the whole story either: a hand-thrown "medicine ball" has a huge momentum, and quite a bit of energy, but few people have died after being hit by one ... knocked off their feet, maybe, but no ambulance required.
Quote from: Olgo on November 06 2016 09:55:22 AM MST
I agree that some 9mm ammo does the job but when it comes to an aggressor who is big boned and mean/high on drugs it'd better work.
My Uw 10mm 200 XTP is bigger and heavier and instead of a push it shoves.
And, I am not saying 9mm will do just as well as 10mm when comparing the best loads of each. A lot of terminal ballistics experts will be unable to cite any data that suggests that 10mm will perform better. Common sense, which is often underrated, will say that the bullet that expands more and penetrates the same, will over a large test sample, tend to perform better. My point was more that there are plenty of 9mm loads that expand and penetrate to excellent depths. A lot of excellent 10mm loads will penetrate less due to the bullet being designed for .40 S&W velocities. They work excellent, but tend to penetrate closer to the minimum depth than many 9mm loads. The 200gr XTP has excellent penetration and can't be driven too fast in a 10mm without exceeding safe pressures. That one will always penetrate good except thru certain barriers such as safety glass. Hornady's Critical Duty will perform significantly better in that test.
This is always an interesting thread topic to watch. I need some popcorn.
On the theoretical side, the 10mm has few peers. It's energy budget is just plain huge compared to the other common players that will fit in a "standard" semi-auto action size. The 45 Super gets close, and the 460 rowland exceeds the 10mm, but really needs a comp to ensure reliable function.
But, in regards to its capability as a defensive round need that energy budget to be effectively used. And there the 10mm is at a disadvantage. Due to the limited user base, not as much work has been done to maximize the utilization of this energy budget. other popular rounds like 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP have lots of R&D put into figuring out how to ensure their smaller energy budgets are directed into maximum tissue disruption and penetration. The 10mm, less so.
Finally, the 10mm energy budget comes at the cost of follow up shot speed. This can only be overcome with lots of training and a rising tide in that regard would raise all boats. This is where drills like the bill drill and the el presidente become important. They teach you to shoot fast. And scoring becomes important on these as well. The scoring is meant to be an indicator of what your "best" strategy is to maximize effect.
And, when arguing the merits of stopping power, all of these factors are important. And the answers won't be the same for everyone. My daughter, for instance, shoots a Browning Hi-Power in 9mm far better than she does my Glock 20. Small hands, slight frame just means she can "score" way better with the minor round. So, for her, the 9mm is the "better" stopper.
I agree and the gun has to fit the person so for a lot of people the 9mm is ideal if not the 380 or whatever.
I'm a retired mechanic and I slapped wrenches for a living. Because of that I have strong arms and thick wrists. I learned how to shoot my 10mm where it doesn't flip my wrist but push my arm back. I keep my elbow bent and I use the Weaver stance.
I started with a 9mm and it feels like a toy so I moved on to 40sw. Some loads were snappy as heck but I got used to it. I wanted a 10mm for a long time and I finally got one a few months ago. I never looked back.
As to ballistics they are similar but the energy imparted on the target are not. They don't call the 45acp the flying ashtray for nothing and the 10mm are gonna have them wished they stayed home. ;)