I'm new to forums, so please excuse any ignorant moves on my part.
I have owned a S&W1006 since about 1991, as a Bear Country and Urban Predator defense piece; my only handgun. Love this gun/caliber but expensive to shoot and reload, so I never felt that I was that good with it. In 2008 I purchased an XDm9 which became my primary pistol, shooting much more often (and carefree) with a USPSA club, gaining skill and confidence. I would shoot the 1006 when a hiking trip was upcoming and you've gotta love the way a 4 foot popper will drop even if a rushed shot hits 6 inches above the base.
Now I want to shoot my 1006 a Lot more but worry about parts and service; I don't want to abuse it. I've stressed myself out to the point I wonder if I should retire it completely or sell it to a good home where it will be run in a prudent manner 'til the end of it's days. I know this gun has value if it's in decent shape and I will have a gunsmith give it a check up and get a % rating on it, but then what? Does anyone feel that the 1911 based 10mm's are similar enough and will there be commonly available parts for years to come? Glocks don't fit me that well and I do not have trigger time on SIGs, but they seem sorta thick in the grip and expensive to boot. I've never seen a Witness or any of the other CZ style pistols.
Any thoughts from this community would be appreciated. Thanks.
In your third sentence it sounds like you reload. Tame down the loads to in between 10mm & 40S&W levels. Reload with the lightest bullets you can buy as the lighter the bullet,the less they cost. The less expensive bullets and less powder due to 'reduced' loads will keep the costs down and minimize abuse to the 1006.
If you like the 1006, I highly recommend getting a Witness. You will enjoy higher magazine capacity as well as the most comfortable grip out there. The newer models are problem free and can be found for around $500.
^ this! yesterday I was shooting both my 10mm Witness and my S&W 59 9mm. I was noticing how similar they felt and when I cleaned them I realized that they were similar inside too. the S&W 1006 is a bigger version on the S&W 59 so you should feel right at home.
Blaster hit on another aspect of my thoughts, which is getting a 3rd gen S&W5906 (9mm). The entire world seems to have conspired to reduce my trigger time to once every couple months. I even have trouble finding dry fire time with my LaserLyte insert. As a result my grip is all jacked up and I am struggling with recoil management. I asked 2 co-workers if they felt polymer flips more; the Viet Nam era Seal team member agreed, but he's shooting a 40S&W in his XD. I think .40's are snappy rounds. The other is a fairly fit 32yr old who fills a doorway, and after a day of trying his new Taurus Judge (loves it with multi projectile defensive shotgun loads) shot a 1st gen Glock 17 or 19 and also a Baretta 92f. He stated that the 92f was much easier on follow ups. I don't think any of us are true pistolaros, but we agree that for the law enforcement officer who carries daily the reduced weight is a factor not to be ignored, adding in radios, cuffs, pepper spray, taser, etc. Otherwise steel frames settle down nicer. Yes, training will help that.
Anyway, I thought going back to 3rd gen platform for both 10mm and 9mm would create some continuity. That's when I learned about lack of service from the factory, which would give me TWO unsupported guns. (Hey, didn't my registration card state that I had a Lifetime Warranty? I guess we've found out who decides how long a lifetime is.)Over the years I've found that it's easy to get more than anticipated, like buying an older house and then realizing what it takes to upgrade. Same with guns. I refer to it as 'Buying the tip of an Iceberg'. You aren't done spending money.
I digress once again. Is the Witness a CZ variant up scaled to fit 10mm? I think one shop in town may have CZ 75s, which I could try for fit.
Am I hearing that at this time S&W 3rd gens should be treated gently?
Thanks again.
swede925, Hello and welcome to the forum! Yes it is a shame that S&W no longer supports this 3rd gen pistols and the 1006 has been one of the best 10mm semi autos being built like a tank with great chamber support. I love my 10xx series guns, they have handled the hottest loads well for me over the many years. Can they wear out maybe, some parts can break over time but none of mine have ever broken or failed.
There are a few things that are available, like recoil, firing pin and magazine springs from Wolff Gunsprings. Speaking of magazines they are being sold for astronomical prices these days...$50 - $60 and up! :o The S&W Forum mentioned a couple of places that may have some parts, but things are dwindling down.
As mentioned the EAA Witness line is a great option these days and many people use them in competitions. You would do well to find someone to allow you some "feel appeal" to see how they fit you.
1911's although they are made by most everyone making firearms with a CNC machine. Chamber support on the Delta Elites leave a lot to be desired whereas others can have have good support with ramped barrels. The newer RIA models are showing good promise for the price...
Best regards and enjoy the forum!
You know, you would think some enterprising CNC programmer/operator would create the design programs to CNC these parts and offer them. Seems like the made to order business of gun parts could be a real opportunity, if executed correctly.
Yes that is a good possibility and business opportunity as well as a company to produce and market magazines for the Smith & Wesson 1st, 2nd & 3rd gen pistols.
I responded,2nd post in this thread,about the 1006,now S&W magazines were brought up. On the S&W forum(I have the same username there),one of the members has started to refer to me as 'the king of S&W mags'. I've sold some 10mm mags here(picked them up for $40 and sold them for $45 plus postage)and members are wanting more,more,more. I go to a lot of gun show in Ohio(22 shows so far in 2016) and buy S&W mags whenever I see them.I've probably got 50-60 in inventory of 9s,40s',10',& 45s'. My 10mm mag inventory is small now so can't ship any out till I acquire more. 9s' and 40s' I got single stackers and double stackers,45s' I got a variety. Been shipping to around the country. The 9 and 40 10 rounders for restricted states are probably the most difficult right behind the 456TSWs'.
What parts need reproduced? If their is a part that fails often enough, I bet Henning or EGW could make them. When I owned my 1006 it didn't seem like many things could break.
In response to The_Shadow and oldman10mm, over the years I have changed out the recoil spring with stronger Wolff springs, trying to keep my brass in the same county as the target. I've changed the followers from yellow to white, and managed to purchase or assemble enough for 8 magazines. I did needed to fabricate some of those little metal bottom plates that secure the spring and floor plate. I have extra floor plates and unused mag springs, and kept the yellow followers 'cuz they work better than nothing at all. Of course I have the original straight grip, the replacement straight grip with the dimple, a curved backstrap grip that has been stippled on all the non checkered surfaces, and a set of rubber Hogue grips. And a rubber sleeve thing with finger grooves. And to tote it along with me there is a leather Gould & Goodrich thumb break holster, a nylon Blackhawk! flap holster and a custom built leather retention style holster. Luckily the POS kydex holster that came with the XDm9 will hold securely enough for those rare match days. There are several mag pouches appropriate for the trail or the range.( By the way, don't think I'm able to compete with anyone but myself, literally. I shoot Limited Ten and often have no one else there with me. I compare my time with a calendar. Accuracy is usually acceptable.)
Obviously there is a lot of personal history with this pistol, which all this brings back into focus. So lets modify the original post to include the 2nd posting I made:
Given the lack of support for 3rd gen S&W's, would I be foolish to purchase a 5906 to use as my primary training pistol, building muscle memory with the basic platform, even though the grip proportions differ somewhat? Recoil of course differs as well, but the guns are similar in weight. This mad scheme could preserve the rarer 1006 at the expense of the 9mm pistol.
Why limit yourself to 9mm? .40SW and .45's are about as common, and will be closer to the 10mm recoil and feel. Although you'll be missing some exercise chasing brass...
With 9mm you can preserve the wallet as well as the gun. Surplus 9mm is cheap.
For your stated goals, this is justifiable.
That said....
If the goal is to preserve the 1006 for just occasional use, why not get a different 10mm for actual work, and make the 1006 a range toy/safe queen and preserve it?
Also, in your original post you mention that 10mm is more expensive to reload. I have not found this to be true compared to other .40 or .45 caliber rounds. Are you referring to the cost of brass or are component costs higher in your area?
The Shadow mentioned price of magazines being high. Check out this price: http://smith-wessonforum.com/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gunbroker.com%2Fitem%2F575067714
Quote from: jiminthe burg on August 10 2016 03:29:47 AM MDT
The Shadow mentioned price of magazines being high. Check out this price: http://smith-wessonforum.com/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gunbroker.com%2Fitem%2F575067714
Similar price to what I paid for my 15 round 10mm magazine...
Sorry I haven't been back sooner: illness has been making the rounds in our household.
I wasn't able to get to a gunsmith for evaluation, he was ill. (hmm, imagine that.) But my LGS dealer wanted to see the pistol, and he gave it a 90%. As far as whether or not it would last for years on end, YMMV. Telephone calls to S&W, Novack"s and reading 10mm postings have me thinking that the best option in keeping the gun is lots of spring replacement kits and stock up on parts that may, (if available) fail in the future. He gave me what he felt would be a very fair price for the pistol and all, and more if I change calibers and offer up reloading dies/ brass/bullets.
I have handled Glock 20 SF and Gen 4; SIG P200/.45; SIG 220/10mm (single action Hunter); a EAA Witness/.45; Colt Delta Elite. Glocks would need actual firing range time to see if my stubby fingers fit, and it's polymer. The Witness is also unknown to me. The SIG feels like a close cousin to my 1006, the safety position the only noticeable difference, and in a good way. I've shot 1911's before and found them acceptable but nothing to make me abandon the Smith. That was then, this is now. Unfortunately I don't have the option of multiple 10mm/ large bore pistols. Part of the 10mm was as a Bear Gun, but hiking is a seldom event these days. I sold a Ruger GP-100 to purchase the 1006, so I am forced to consider letting the 1006 go if I want to change format and/or caliber. The sale of the 10mm would supply the funds for the new gun, mags, etc. The SIG and Delta are just beyond comfort, as the initial purchase would exhaust the money from the sale of the Smith.
So there is my self inflicted dilemma. It is probably much ado about nothing, but that's how it plays out in my world.
Sqbullet- 10mm available factory ammo is not cheap, when it takes lots of repetition to build muscle memory. Brass must be ordered and the time involved is an expense of it's own.
DM 1906- As stated above, a change of format/caliber may be considered. What do any of you think of the other makes of 1911. My wife's nephew loves his RIA in .45, but I don't know if it just fit his budget. Their 10mm single stack seems to get mixed but generally favorable reviews?
(Heavy sigh) Any thoughts, anyone?
From that list the clear choice in my mind is the Witness. Here is my thinking.
Sig - Great gun, but spendy
Delta - Questionable chamber support and middle of the road build quality, but not a budget 1911 price mean you are paying for the words Colt and Delta Elite on the side of the gun. Bears, and often bad guys, don't read too well.
Glock - My personal pick from this list, but I have very large hands and don't mind tupperware guns. You are the opposite, so while this is a good choice, it probably is not a good choice for you.
Witness - Solid platform. All the guys here who have a Witness Steel love them, myself included. The only reason I choose a Glock 20 for EDC over the Witness is weight. Price is the lowest of the pack, by a good margin.
If 45 ACP is an option, then I would look hard at a Ruger or Springfield 1911, or a Sig P220 45 ACP. The P220 standard versions are a good bit cheaper than the Hunter SAO 10mm. However, the Witness would still be a leader in the price/feature comparison for that group.
Quote from: swede925 on August 23 2016 04:46:09 PM MDT
Sqbullet- 10mm available factory ammo is not cheap, when it takes lots of repetition to build muscle memory. Brass must be ordered and the time involved is an expense of it's own.
I was responding to your specific statement that
10mm is more expensive to reload. This just isn't so. Factory ammo, yes. But 10mm takes the same primer, powder and time as other cartridges. Bullets are similarly priced to any other handgun cartridge. Reloading will be on cost parity with any other large capacity auto.
sqlbullet Please do not take this as a rant or snarky response; I may have misspoken. While the reloading expense is similar to other calibers my overall experience seems more costly.
When the rare opportunity to get to the range presents itself I often find myself unprepared. 9mm, where if low on ammo a guy can find blasting ammo even if not the preferred bullet weight or brand, and take home some once-fired brass if you choose to collect it. 10mm off the shelf is either American Eagle, when available, or uber pricey self defense 25 round boxes or $50-60 / box Buffalo Bore or Double Tap. Great brass, if you crawl in the weeds. The only indoor range has a policy of sweeping brass forward of the firing line while you're trying to work out your grip issues, so that's a loss as well. Perhaps once I make a decision I can ignore the world for several days and load up enough 10mm to be able to have more than 2 range sessions before more reloading.
As regards to Witness pistols:
The slide seems much less massive, so how's the recoil impulse feel?
What about Customer Service and parts availability? Do they have some degree of interchangeability with other CZ clones? I've been given to believe that 1911's have enough commonality across brands that finding and fitting parts is not an issue. I get the idea that if I go 1911 you have no faith in the 10mm offerings; is that correct? In .45 I have no qualms considering S&W or Ruger, as I'm partial to those brands and the glowing reviews I see.
I feel your pain on brass. One trick I have learned is this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/19-ft-x-29-ft-4-in-blue-all-purposeweather-resistant-tarp-60468.html
Fire 1-2 rounds and eyeball where the brass goes. Then layout a tarp centered on the drop zone. Usually I can find a few rocks to put on the corners and then when I am done, my brass is mostly on the tarp.
As far as the range, talk to the range owner/manager. Find out who they are selling to and see if you can cut a deal to get their 10mm brass. Sucks to have to buy your own brass back though.
And that is the one disadvantage to 10mm. 9mm, 40 and 45 brass is effectively free for me because several ranges here don't sweep. So, for every one of mine I get back, I get one each of the others.
The Witness guns do tend to have light slides compared to the rest of the pack. However, I find my Witness guns to be very shootable. The excellent CZ/P35 ergonomics play a big factor in this.
Customer Service is poor from EAA. No way to sugar coat that. EAA does have a good selection of parts online though. I don't believe these guns share any common parts with the CZ platform guns. You might be able to alter grips to work, but that is about it. That said, everyone here who has an EAA gun likes it. Breakage is almost unheard of, and would be if EAA had even a smattering of CS capability. All the noise in a google search is really about 10 guys who got screwed in the cracked slide debacle.
I love me some 1911 in 10mm.
But not the Delta Elite, at least as work gun. Range plinking with mid-range ammo, fun gun. Your original list had the DE, which lacks a ramped barrel and therefore chamber support.
But everyone else who makes a 10mm 1911 beside Colt has a ramped barrel and good chamber support. Sooooo...
RIA has a solid offering for the price, but you might have some teething pains. They seem to have good CS if (when?) you have issues. One day I will add a RIA FS HC to the safe beside my Para P16 10mm conversion. They would share magazines. But I would say out of the box you have about a 60% chance of getting a gun set up right. If it is wrong, their CS WILL fix it, and you will get some magazines for your trouble. This option falls in your ideal price constraints, but wasn't on your initial list.
Kimber is Kimber, and they make a Kimber 10mm. Nothing wrong with their design, but if you don't want MIM parts...well, Kimber.
Dan Wesson is a fabulous 1911 maker in 10mm, and several of the high end shops have them as well.
I would love to see Ruger make the SR1911 in 10mm. They would do it right. But no such luck as yet.
Also, with the 10XX series guns from S&W. Lots of glowing reviews today. But in the '90's on the BBS's there was less stellar news. Lots of guys were pretty critical of them. IMHO most of the complaints were unjustified. But it is also possible that the lemons didnt survive and the guns that did were great. I didn't manage a fleet of them, and have only handled them on occasion, never owned one.
I recall the reaction to the S&W 1006, most of which was from 1911 guys. 'Too powerful" and 're-inventing the wheel' which I read as 'how dare you create a viable auto loader cartridge more powerful than .45acp?!' As to the 1006, "how the h### do you flick of the safety?' and 'that first D/A round may as well be shot straight into the ground ; then you can hit your target with a sub standard S/A pull' which meant 'There is only ONE pistol, the 1911, and no amount of training will overcome that fact. Anything else is beneath our notice. and you can't make us change.Never never never LALALALA'
I hope I didn't offend anyone, but that's how it seemed to me; they did the same to the Barretta 92f. Now I'm considering a 1911. Wierd
The RIA looks good and fits the budget well, but from reviews I get the idea that they are considered low or entry level 1911's which never the less have great features. Would it be a step down in quality over the S&W? I am a 'Pretty is as pretty does' sort of guy, but we all do really want pretty, don't we.
Depends on how you define "quality".
The gun is made from solid parts. The only fault is in the assembly, which in about larger (but not large) percentage of the guns may have issues.
Guys here who have them like them. One or two had to have them go back to RIA, but they were fixed and returned in running condition.
Also, RIA is currently making a big push to move up a tier in brand perception. I would say the guns are of solid quality.
Continuing on with the 10mm is starting to feel like the MGB-GT I bought in college. Lots of fun...when it runs, which take extra effort...gets noticed by others who appreciate it and brings a smile to their lips...but it turns out I'm really a Subaru Outback sort of guy.
I just got back from the range; shot all of my pistols. ( S&W 22A, XDm9, and the 1006) I can not walk away from the 10mm, it' too good. So I'm back to smaller caliber S&W 3rd gen pistols and hope for the best, or sell the 1006 for a 1911 with a 10mm and 40s&w barrels. RIA says the 40 barrel would work in the 10mm, such as the Tac Ultra MS or FS, but would require gunsmith fitting. Unfortunately we are lacking skilled smiths in my area. Can anyone recommend a gunsmith to me? Are there other makers that come to mind; my LGS was lukewarm at best on the RIA, and keeps pushing Glocks, but I don't like them. He will probably be willing to order the pistol for me, and I do want to support his business. I am not prepared to go high end market. My reality could handle $4-500 max outlay for a 4006 or 5906, or that amount above whatever I can get for the 1006 as described.
Sorry, I should have asked about "Barrel Makers" that may be able to supply and fit a 40s&w barrel, should I find a 10mm 1911. But so far RIA and Kimber seem to be in my price range. Springfield doesn't make the Omega any more, and a Delta elite would still need a fully supported chamber, right? Added expense if I had to buy 2 barrels. I am hung up on the 40s&w thing because I already have a second set of 10/40 dies I could set up, and American Eagle 10mm 180gr were $38 at Cabella's today, 40s&w would have cost $20. A 40s&w barrel from RIA is around $80. 3 boxes of 10mm would buy the barrel and 2 boxes of 40. Yes, I would still have to find that gunsmith and pay him, but it may not take too long to break even.