I noticed the Underwood site does not list in big red letters "Not for Delta Elite" anymore. What gives?
https://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto/
This is not a slight by any means, as Underwood remains to be my favorite 10mm ammo supplier. I am wondering more because I am looking at the possibility of purchasing a Delta Elite in the future.
Thanks!
49
I don't know, but glad we never hear of any incidents about any of our ammo makers lately.
Quote from: 4949shooter on July 24 2016 04:48:49 AM MDT
I noticed the Underwood site does not list in big red letters "Not for Delta Elite" anymore. What gives?
Most likely possibilities IMHO:
A. Underwood has gotten a new lawyer.
B. Discovered new proprietary powders that yield same performance results at lower pressures.
C. Reduced powder loads to safely fall within Delta Elite pressure tolerances.
Wondering if option C may be the correct answer, although have no evidence to support theory.
With all of that being said, those of us that have been here and around 10mm pistol/ammos know it's not a good choice for that platform. I hope if anyone who intends to purchase one understands that fully and looks into it to the tenth degree (phone them up for info and work up to that level slowly) watching for any bad signs.
Well some of the newer pull-downs were showing them using the Shooter's World powders, which are actually LOVEX powders rebranded (see listings in the link) and have properties similar to Accurate Arms!
http://shootersworldsc.com/reloading-guide/ (http://shootersworldsc.com/reloading-guide/)
The LOVEX Loading Guide in PDF format
http://shootersworldsc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/reloading_Lovex_EN.pdf (http://shootersworldsc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/reloading_Lovex_EN.pdf)
Shooter's World loading data PDF
http://shootersworldsc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ShootersWorld_reloading_ALL42816.pdf (http://shootersworldsc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ShootersWorld_reloading_ALL42816.pdf)
Quote from: Rojo27 on July 24 2016 07:18:10 AM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on July 24 2016 04:48:49 AM MDT
I noticed the Underwood site does not list in big red letters "Not for Delta Elite" anymore. What gives?
Most likely possibilities IMHO:
A. Underwood has gotten a new lawyer.
B. Discovered new proprietary powders that yield same performance results at lower pressures.
C. Reduced powder loads to safely fall within Delta Elite pressure tolerances.
Wondering if option C may be the correct answer, although have no evidence to support theory.
I was actually thinking option "C" myself. Though perhaps not dropped to the level of Delta Elite loads, maybe just dialed back a notch or two to make it a bit safer in all the platforms.
Quote from: Intercooler on July 24 2016 08:09:06 AM MDT
With all of that being said, those of us that have been here and around 10mm pistol/ammos know it's not a good choice for that platform. I hope if anyone who intends to purchase one understands that fully and looks into it to the tenth degree (phone them up for info and work up to that level slowly) watching for any bad signs.
Understood. The allure of the Delta Elite is more of owning a Colt (both my 1911's in .45 are Colt), as well as owning a piece of 10mm history.
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 24 2016 08:41:18 AM MDT
Well some of the newer pull-downs were showing them using the Shooter's World powders, which are actually LOVEX powders rebranded (see listings in the link) and have properties similar to Accurate Arms!
http://shootersworldsc.com/reloading-guide/ (http://shootersworldsc.com/reloading-guide/)
The LOVEX Loading Guide in PDF format
http://shootersworldsc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/reloading_Lovex_EN.pdf (http://shootersworldsc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/reloading_Lovex_EN.pdf)
Shooter's World loading data PDF
http://shootersworldsc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ShootersWorld_reloading_ALL42816.pdf (http://shootersworldsc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ShootersWorld_reloading_ALL42816.pdf)
Thank you Shadow. Does this powder have any bearing on the Colt platform?
Quote4949shooter writes; Does this powder have any bearing on the Colt platform?
Yes and no...
Yes, it can if using charge weights of powder that yield good velocities at safe pressures due to powder properties and burning characteristics in good quality brass.
No, if using charge weights of powder that yield higher velocities at safe upper end pressures due to powder properties and burning characteristics in good quality brass.
The pressure for 10mm as set by SAAMI is 37,500 PSI, the powder use can build that pressure slower with slower burn rate powders and faster using faster burn rate powders. There needs to be a balance between the components in use to find an optimal performance and all guns handle these things differently to an extent.
The brass holds the pressure contained up to a point of going plastic and starts to flow. Different chamber supports allow this to happen at various pressure peaks. When exceeded it can even fail catastrophically! :o
These LOXEX powders are very close to the Accurate Arms powders (Now Western Powders) by charge weights and pressure.
Two of them being used are;
MAJOR PISTOL D037-01 very close to AA#7 performance/pressure
LOVEX D037.1 High density, double base, ball propellant similar to Accurate
No. 7 designed for 9 mm NATO carbine ammunition.
Somewhat more specialized in applications than D032
and D036, it is well suited to high intensity cartridges. It is
a good choice for .357, .41 and .44 Magnum cartridges, when
slightly less than full powder loads are preferred.
HEAVY PISTOL D037-02 very close to AA#9 performance/pressure
LOVEX D037.2 High density, double base, ball propellant similar to Accurate
No. 9 is most suitable for .44 Magnum. This propellant gives
excellent velocities for the pressures generated and with less
flash than other comparable powders. It is intended for use
in large capacity handgun cartridges (.357, .41, .44 Magnum
and .454 Casull). It is also suitable for some small rifle
cartridges (.25-20 Winchester, .30 M1 Carbine)
and the .410 shotgun. It is the best with heavier bullets
in most calibres. Our slowest handgun propellant.
The
burn rate charts place these powders burning speeds in a closed bomb test to measure their burn rates and pressure yields...
Hodgdon's newest still does not include BE-86
https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn%20Rates%20-%202015-2016.pdf (https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn%20Rates%20-%202015-2016.pdf)
Pulver 2014
http://www.lhs-germany.de/fileadmin/dateien/dokumente/Pulver/2014/Burning_Rate_Chart_LHS_2014.03.pdf (http://www.lhs-germany.de/fileadmin/dateien/dokumente/Pulver/2014/Burning_Rate_Chart_LHS_2014.03.pdf)
Accurate Arms 2012
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf (http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf)
They have stated its option B. They have also said all there loadings are ok in the Delta.
I have said it before and I will say it again.
I shoot Underwood 165 @ 1400 fps gr out of my Delta. Sometimes I get smiles and most times I don't.
I took the worst examples of brass from Underwood & buffalo bore to the NRA show and showed it to Colt, starline & Double tap. All 3 said I had no worries other than they wouldn't reload the one's with smiles. Double tap even stated the glock is worse than the Delta!
Quote from: 01deuce on July 24 2016 11:44:44 AM MDT
They have stated its option B. They have also said all there loadings are ok in the Delta.
I have said it before and I will say it again.
I shoot Underwood 165 @ 1400 fps gr out of my Delta. Sometimes I get smiles and most times I don't.
I took the worst examples of brass from Underwood & buffalo bore to the NRA show and showed it to Colt, starline & Double tap. All 3 said I had no worries other than they wouldn't reload the one's with smiles. Double tap even stated the glock is worse than the Delta!
Good to know thanks.
I've shot most of underwood 10mm loads. The 155gr are the hottest in my opinion of their loads . I've never had a bulge in the brass . If I'm in question, I load one round and remove the clip then shoot . That way if a case ruptures all the gas goes down and out the bottom instead of blowing the clip up and breaking the gun. After I shoot the new round I'll find the brass and inspect for bulges.
Just curious 01deuce, did Underwood tell you the above information over the phone or did they put it in writing somewhere?
Thanks..
Quote from: 4949shooter on July 25 2016 12:46:25 AM MDT
Just curious 01deuce, did Underwood tell you the above information over the phone or did they put it in writing somewhere?
Thanks..
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=593881&highlight=delta+underwood
Well that's interesting! Some of you with the "new powder" offerings should send one to The Shadow for a pull-down. Unless they found an unknown (other than Lovex), it sounds like the loads went backwards. The likes of Power Pistol, Long Shot, etc... are nothing new.
Quote from: 01deuce on July 25 2016 03:13:58 AM MDT
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=593881&highlight=delta+underwood
Sounds good thanks.
Quote from: Intercooler on July 25 2016 05:34:35 AM MDT
Well that's interesting! Some of you with the "new powder" offerings should send one to The Shadow for a pull-down. Unless they found an unknown (other than Lovex), it sounds like the loads went backwards. The likes of Power Pistol, Long Shot, etc... are nothing new.
Possibly a little bit of both. The last time I fired Underwood 165 grain in my Glock it felt hot, but didn't feel as hot as their earlier offering in 165 grain. I have fired quite a bit of this ammo over the last few years through Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glocks.
Though I bet the velocities are still up there, while maybe being slightly less power with hopefully reduced chamber pressures in a significantly safer load as Deuces link states.
I think you always wanted that and might finally have it. I haven't purchased any Underwood on a long time since the prices kept going up. With some of the new stuff that has hot the market I wonder what's their big seller now?
Probably still their 180 and 200 tmj loads. That would be my guess.
I guess someone should put the new loads on the chrono to see what the difference is, if any.
I figure the FMJ was hit hard by Sig and S&B. My thoughts was 200 XTP and hardcast.
No problem running Underwood 180s or 155s in my Delta Elite :)
I may be mistaken, but I thought the underwood 180gr's used to be 1350fps . Now they are 1300fps . I also remember the underwood 155gr used to say they were 802ftlbs energy. Now it's 774ftlbs . Does anyone else remember? If I'm wrong please let me know . I've read many 10mm numbers so I may have things mixed up.
Yes you are correct on both accounts as I have the older 180s and they are 1350 fps and I also have the 155s and they are over 1500 fps. I belive I got the last bunch of ammo from them in Feb. I do shoot both through a Kimber and a Colt Delta Elite with no problems. About a month ago I sent Kevin a e-mail about the new loads and he did say that the 180s have been backdown to 1300fps I didn't ask about the 155s.
I still have some of the 1350fps 180gr. Also shoot them out of my delta with zero bulge .