Hey everyone, i need help from the experts. What i have is a new Glock 20sf i have been trying to reload for, i posted here a while back about smileys from some once fired sig ammo.
Well since then i have aquired brand new Starline brass, Xtreme 180 hpcb heavy plate concave base bullets.I am only using 8.2 grains of Power Pistol WLP primers oal of 1,255 Alliants site says 9.3. Any way still getting smileys with a new Lone Wolf barrel which has a much tighter chamber but in my opinion comparing with the Glock barrel has less case support than the factory barrel.
I get smileys with either barrel.
I feel that this is a fairly moderate load kinda defeating the purpose of the 10mm cartridge. Not all of the rounds are smiled i loaded 20 the other day and had to pitch about 8 cases i cant stand to throw brass away. I am not new to reloading about 12 yrs now had success in all cartridges but this one, i need some advice,
just about to the point of selling the Glock and cut my losses on the 10mm cartridge . i want to load this round i really like it but cant see throwing away brass after one loading.
I am putting very slight taper crimp just enough to remove flare,here are some pictures any advice will be appreciated.
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0063_zpsau2hz3r6.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0063_zpsau2hz3r6.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0064_zpsrjfjf9qb.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0064_zpsrjfjf9qb.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0065_zps1vmb9jod.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0065_zps1vmb9jod.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0066_zpsj2fa9nt4.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0066_zpsj2fa9nt4.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0061_zpsutqznlte.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0061_zpsutqznlte.jpg.html)
some you can feel with a fingernail and some you cant please help lol.
One other thing i am scaling each round and my scales are accurate according to the test weights so they should be consistently charged.
What velocities are you getting?
Haven't tried WLP w/ PP, but with other powders it can behave like a magnum primer (hence no mag LP from Winchester).
Try CCI 300s and report back.
Benchrst, i have not set my chrono up for these yet, i will see if my lgs has any cci usually just has winchester i will see what he has.
Thank you for the reply.
Might I ask what recoil spring setup are you using? I prefer a non captive recoil setup and here is why...
Glock 20Sf Factory spring test
It takes 5lb 3oz to start the slide to move from the locked position
Full retraction at 18lb 0oz at lock open
Glock 20SF spring test Wolff Gun Springs 22lb RSA installed
It takes 6lb 4oz to start the slide to move from the locked position
Full retraction at 22lb 9oz at lock open
22-Slightly over a pound difference 1lb 1oz to start the slide to move from the locked position
24-Slightly over a pound difference 2lb 3oz to start the slide to move from the locked position
22-Slightly over a 2 pound difference 2lb 9oz at lock open
24-Slightly over a 6 pound difference 6lb 1oz at lock open
I feel that the non captive setup is working to hold lock up dwell time just a little longer. I've gone to 8.2 grains of Power Pistol under the 200 grain XTP.
Things to consider are the brass being very soft, Power Pistol being faster can snap that brass expansion faster.
Barrel being of tighter tolerances in the bore can also have higher initial pressure.
How about just trying a slower powder like Blue Dot ...
Haven't ever seen a smile at 10.4+ of BD with same head and case, barrel as used
As a PS... how is the same round fired in the stock barrel ( re shadows remark ) ? Any smiles?
A few thoughts.
Winchester LP are in reality a magnum primer, and 800x gets peaky with magnum primers.
Tight chambers run at higher pressure than looser chambers.
I wouldn't think those factors would be enough at 8.2g, UNLESS....
if the crimp isn't enough to hold the bullet tightly during the stripping from the magazine, hitting the feed ramp, and chambering the round. If the bullet is set back into the case, pressures can rise dramatically. I blew up a Glock when that happened with my reloaded ammo.
Another thing I'd check is how deeply the chamber is cut into the barrel. Those smiles (especially the first one in the first pic) seem to be quite a ways up on the case.
Final thing is 800x is not a powder to be thrown by a measure and not hand weighing each charge. Those big flakes make keeping the charges uniform a pain in the keester.
Greg
Good point Geeman
QuoteFinal thing I'd check is how deeply the chamber is cut into the barrel. Those smiles (especially the first one in the first pic) seem to be quite a ways up on the case.
Some barrels which are Match and not "Drop-In" may have a short chamber cut which is final reamed after the barrel is fitted to the slide. These barrels have a longer chamber hood that is adjusted for precise fitting, then the chamber will be cut to the final depth for that Match Grade setup.
The primers may also be suspect and Power Pistol usually doesn't need magnum strength to fully ignite. Sometimes I will develop loads using the magnum primers to find the upper range using them.
Oops,
I guess I had 800x on my mind....
Power pistol load data seems to not have the saftey fudge factor that the Hogden, IMR and associated powders. Max is often max with Power Pistol.
Greg
Shadow, i am using the stock recoil spring and guide rod. Have been looking for Bluedot no one around here has any yet. I am getting some smiled cases with Glock barrel also.
The cases expand to .434 in the Glock barrel and .427 in the Lonewolf barrel. I may load some with ole faithful Unique 7.3 grains. I have Unique,Bullseye and Power pistol some BE86 and some 2400 on hand. i am partial to Alliant powders they have always worked well and give good accuracy.
Thank You very much for your replies i really want to get this cartridge worked out i hate to sell my Glock, some say i shoud have went with a KKM barrel more case support anyone own one of these?
I think we need to know fps before recommendations, unless anyone knows how PP behaves with 'magnum' primers?
I've run RMR HC 180s with CCI 300s / PP - 8.8gr was fine, 9.0 showed a slight mile, expansion was .4285. This was out of a G20.4 LW 5.15" w/ 24#.
ss, when did you buy the LW barrel?
Benchrst, just got the Lonewolf barrel this week, it is the 5.15" maybe i should try the guide rod Shadow mentioned and a 24lb spring.
May try and get my chrono out this weekend and see what it says, it does not feel hot at all, brass seems to be ejecting normal not excessively far. just does not feel like a load that should be getting smiles. accuracy seems good too. mine is a GEN 3 20sf purchased new in March of this year.
I have a Gen 3 G20 and have run 8.8 of Power Pistol over a 180 RN, FP, and JHP. While that is in the warm territory it isn't terribly hot. There is no sign of a smile. I'll be interested to see your results with a different primer and different barrel, though my G20 has a stock barrel.
I'm really leaning towards the primer heating up the load more than anticipated, though there's the potential you got a soft batch of brass.
The reason I ask about the barrel is it's been suggested that LW (Dasan), at some point, changed the chamber dimensions. I don't know when that change happened, if at all.
My LW 5.15" was purchased around Sept of last year, and 5.2" threaded very recently. A test last week (9.0 PP, 180gr IDP, CCI 300, new Starline, 20#) between 5.15, 5.2, & 5.2 comped showed very similar results in terms of case condition / expansion, with velocities being 1,270, 1,272, & 1,298 respectively.
I am about to give up, today i loaded up 30 rounds with 180 xtreme hpcb with 7.3 of Unique. Shot 15 through the Lone wolf barrel and 15 through the stock Glock barrel.
4 out of the 15 shot from the LW barrel were good 11 smiled junk. The Glock barrel had 12 good and 4 junk. Looks like a total waste of a 100$ to me goodbye Lonewolf barrel. why i am at it may as well sell the Glock 20 and just enjoy shooting my Glock21.
If i have to download it may as well just shoot my 45acp. My dealer did have some cci300 but at this point i doubt that will help me out, appears just not enough case support in either of these barrels. But the Glock is the better of the two. I have also tried firm taper crimp, and just enough to remove the bell did not seem to matter. Well guess i will see if i can recoup some of my money from the gun and barrel and move on, brass is to costly to pitch after 1 firing in my opinion.
Thank You everyone for trying to help me, my dealer did have a new Delta Elite the new version with the Beavertail grip safety and the novak 3 dot sights but i would probably be in same shape as i am in now do not know what there case supprt is like.
Man i want a 10mm bad but this smiling brass has me over it wish S&W would have kept making the 10mm
I have found LW has opened up the chambers lately. I guess they were getting to many returns or something. Last one I purchased I sent back for a refund. Did not offer anymore support than the stock Glock barrel. Actually had less. My older LW's have been GTG. I am now buying KKM's. I shoot a lot of lead.
yfdcap, how do you like the kkm barrel? was thinking about going that route in the first place 165$ for the KKM and i paid 104$ for the lonewolf. Maybe i should try the KKM before i give up.
that's my problem also, looks like alot less support on the wolf barrel compared to the Glock.
Do you have any other brass you could try?
I also add that Unique and 180s probably aren't the greatest mix.
I've shot some pretty stout stuff through my LW & stock barrel, and while I've slightly smiled the brass in the LW, I've only slightly bulged the brass in the stock unit (never smiled).
It's beginning to sound like a brass issue.
Don't give up, there's certainly a solution!
Benchrst, thank you for your advice i had bought some Sig Sauer 10mm ammo to shoot and then reuse the brass but had smiles with those as well. Someone told me Starline may make the brass for sig just has a sig headstamp. I really dont want to give up yet, like you said there must be a solution. Again thank you for trying to help me figure this out.
I have to wonder if the lockup is unlocking too early and increasing lack of support...You may want to look at the Locking block surfaces for damage or cracks. If there is slop or damage to the block that may allow early unlock.
I still think it's the recoil spring related...The Wolff non captive and 22lbs spring may help. It is what I use in mine.
Take and press the rear of the slide forward as you shoot, this is to maintain lockup, stop the slide's rearward movement and the case from ejecting. This may show if it is a unlocking issue, if you don't see any smiles.
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 25 2016 08:39:51 PM MDT
I have to wonder if the lockup is unlocking too early and increasing lack of support...You may want to look at the Locking block surfaces for damage or cracks. If there is slop or damage to the block that may allow early unlock.
Think we'd see some drag on the primer if it's unlocking early? Maybe the OP can post a pick.
Here are some pictures of the primers.
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0080_zps5pciufxm.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0080_zps5pciufxm.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0081_zpscoom5qnf.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0081_zpscoom5qnf.jpg.html)
Shadow i may try that and see what happens.
The strikes look pretty normal to me...
I've run some medium-warm (600 ft lb) stuff with the stock spring and didn't get smiles with either the LW or stock 4.6".
No two guns are exactly the same, but this is weird.
Quote from: ss 396 on June 25 2016 02:19:39 PM MDT
yfdcap, how do you like the kkm barrel? was thinking about going that route in the first place 165$ for the KKM and i paid 104$ for the lonewolf. Maybe i should try the KKM before i give up.
I have two of them now and will not buy anything else. I have a couple Storm Lakes that are unreliable. I feel the chambers have not being cut deep enough in them. The new LW's have less chamber support as mentioned. The KKM's have worked great from day one with great chamber support.
Quote from: ss 396 on June 25 2016 10:04:01 PM MDT
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0082_zpsgf7brofd.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0082_zpsgf7brofd.jpg.html)
Lower left is hotter than upper right. At least the primer appears flatter and I'd guess that the flatter primer would be smiled in my Gen4 G20.
Were these loaded identically?
Greg
Geeman, yes i hand weighed all of these on my beam scale and trickled to the exact amount trying to make them as consistent as possible.
Don't take this as a silly question but do you have scale weights or a second scale to verify your scale weights?
The scales should be on their target but some can be off the actual weight as marked...just a suggestion for consideration!
???
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 26 2016 03:13:16 PM MDT
Don't take this as a silly question but do you have scale weights or a second scale to verify your scale weights?
The scales should be on their target but some can be off the actual weight as marked...just a suggestion for consideration!
???
Certainly worth checking, I use two scales, a beam and a digital, they are always no more than .2 different from each other.
Quote from: Geeman on June 26 2016 11:54:36 AM MDT
Quote from: ss 396 on June 25 2016 10:04:01 PM MDT
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0082_zpsgf7brofd.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0082_zpsgf7brofd.jpg.html)
Lower left is hotter than upper right. At least the primer appears flatter and I'd guess that the flatter primer would be smiled in my Gen4 G20.
Were these loaded identically?
Greg
The radius and strike look identical to me, think its angle / lighting.
I've had loads show the slightest of flattening and have a (slight) smile, and others completely erase the primer radius with no guppy.
Unless its a lock up thing like Shadow mentioned, it would just seem the stars lined up and you maybe have 2 bad barrels.
I can't get past the chance the bullet is moving when feeding. When I load the first round, I push the bullet into the top of the bench and put a lot of pressure against it. I wouldn't be surprised if it caused the kitchen table to slide with the amount of pressure. If the bullet moves, increase the crimp. The process of being stripped from the magazine into the feed ramp is a violent process, and if the bullet moves, it can cause very high pressures.
Greg
Shadow, yes i have 3 beam scales all old Ohaus i can compare between them and they all seem accurate. i have a set of check weights i check them regularly, thinking hard about the KKM barrel and the guide rod and spring you suggested. Thank you for your help
Geeman, i do the same test on my loading bench have moved it a few times and it is heavy lol. I have checked them after chambering and have no setback, seems to have good neck tension and crimp.
yfdcap, i think i have a couple barrels with very little case support.
SS, any chance you can post a picture of a case in your barrel? I'm curious how your case support compares to mine.
I would still encourage you to chrono, and if you can, try a standard primer.
Geeman made an important point about pressure and bullet setback, but with a cartridge that head spaces off the case mouth it's important not to over crimp. Ideally the 'crimp' would remove the flare, and good neck tension keeps bullet in place.
If you do buy a KKM barrel, RockYourGlock seems to have best price. You should also be able to return the Lone Wolf. I just returned one a couple months ago.
I will try and get a picture of my barrel up tomorrow
Here are pictures of the Lone Wolf barrel and the Glock barrel
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0084_zps4hwqnsor.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0084_zps4hwqnsor.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0086_zpsjlysrjow.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0086_zpsjlysrjow.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0088_zpsllvznpgh.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0088_zpsllvznpgh.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0083_zpsv2lzsvzo.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0083_zpsv2lzsvzo.jpg.html)
Cute kitten, but I don't see how it helps with chamber support :D
Looks like all the pictures were taken down... ???
Sorry i accidently deleted them from photobucket. sorry guys made a bonehead move while on photobucket :D
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0083_zps21ocxup9.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0083_zps21ocxup9.jpg.html)
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(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0084_zps0nvti6fw.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0084_zps0nvti6fw.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0085_zpszvba6mi8.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0085_zpszvba6mi8.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0086_zpsgvueb9ou.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0086_zpsgvueb9ou.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0087_zps8nyv8dgd.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0087_zps8nyv8dgd.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0088_zpsuh4a04p0.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0088_zpsuh4a04p0.jpg.html)
My 5.2" barrel's support seems to be about the same as yours.
(http://10mm-reloaded.com/dumping_ground/LW_case_support.jpg)
Seems like it almost has to be a spring issue...
Yep, that's why I was leaning toward early unlocking! Also the use of the non captive spring system as shown earlier with data to support the extra pressure exerted to be overcome during the initial impulse.
What if the hood needs to be fit ever so slightly?
Gun isn't locking up 100%? Possibility?
He most certainly has a gun problem. I've run loads up to 900+ lbs muzzle energy out of my bone stock 20 with 17lb recoil spring with no brass bulging.
Did you try the Glock out of battery recoil spring test?
http://btguiderods.com/spring-test/
I have actually had two new out of the box G20's not pass. I use 20 or 22 lb springs right out of the gate.
Thank you for the help and information gentleman. Ok tell me i am crazy but my lgs has a Colt Delta Elite the new version with the beavertail grip safety and the novak sights. I realize there may be case support issues with this gun but man what a beautiful pistol. I recently purchased a Colt Combat Elite from the same gunshop and this gun is a great shooter, looks like Colt putting out some good product the Combat Elite has a nice trigger out of the box and full disassembly no tool marks anywhere nice pistol i think the Delta Elite would be the same i always wanted a delta. I figure if i have to put money in something i would rather it be a 1911 as i could always get my money back out of it. So what are your opinions about ready to ditch the Glock and get the Delta. As i think the loads i have been loading for the Glock would work fine in the Delta without brass problems.
I have two Delta Elites. Great guns. I am very fond of the 1911 platform. I will be buying the new one as soon as LGS gets one. I have shot pretty much everything off the shelf and all my reloads through them with no problems. About the only exception is Underwood and I have not tried it. There is a lot of people who put this gun down mostly because of what has been spread through the internet. Very few actually have experience with any problems. All of that being said if you ever plan on loading it over book or HOT you will experience the same case problems you are seeing now. You will get bulged brass at high end. I do not load nuclear stuff myself. I have with Glocks but really do not see any benefit other than bragging rights. Especially for practice stuff. My loads are usually a 180 grain something going about 1250fps. Carry loads while hunting or woods carry is a 180 or 200 at 1300fps. I also would not give up on the Glock. I would throw a 20 or 22lb spring in it before sending it down the road.
yfdcap, That is my thoughts also no need in going over 1200fps for my needs. I have about 8 1911s i really like a 1911. This new Delta is tempting me gonna go to the lgs tomorrow and fondle it some more, gonna be hard not to bring it home, although i would like to get the Glock to work and not kill my brass. I will have to try and sell the Lonewolf barrel i dont think they will give me a refund since i have fired it. The factory Glock barrel is much better, lesson learned i guess.
They should still give you a refund. I shot mine and they took it back. Sounds like you are a 1911 guy like me. Might give some thought to a Dan Wesson also. I have a Razorback and a Silverback due any day. Dan Wessons are very nice 1911's and have good case support to boot. Not trying to talk you out of the Colt though. They are great guns.
Well i may have fixed my smiley problem, got a new gun, barrel support good or better than the Lone Wolf barrel. Shot 50 rounds of what i was shooting in the Glock, 8.2 Power Pistol under an Xtreme 180hpcb. all 50 pieces of brass are good to go yipee, no smileys or bulge measured case before firing at near base had 0.419, after firing was 0.425 much better than the Glock.
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0116_zpslholtmcc.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0116_zpslholtmcc.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0118_zpsnctgnuhg.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0118_zpsnctgnuhg.jpg.html)
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(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0123_zpsi9zosvdb.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0123_zpsi9zosvdb.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0127_zpssfd4zknw.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0127_zpssfd4zknw.jpg.html)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/glockit/DSC_0130_zpsyy7wzxpz.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/glockit/media/DSC_0130_zpsyy7wzxpz.jpg.html)
Went to my lgs this morning had been eyeing this gun couple weeks now, sent the Glock on, and brung the Colt home :)
this gun shoots poa which i like, for some reason the 20 was 6oclock i'm not a fan of that, weird though my Glock 21 that i have carried for 15yrs is poa. Anyway pretty happy so far, and Thank You to everyone that tried to help me with my Glock, not Glocks fault they build the most dependable gun on the market just not designed to save the brass, about like my M1A.
C'est la vie...Nice DE though! 8)
Nice Delta. I think you two will be happy together. 8)
Oh, I do recommend a flat bottom firing pin stop and a 25lb hammer spring. Easy upgrades.
Well, that's certainly one way to address the issue ;D
Nice gun :D
Hey everyone i was able to run my chrono today same loads i was shooting in the Glock. 8.0 grains Power Pistol with a 180 Xtreme hpcb 1,255 OAL here are the results still left with all good brass that is more like it lol. Let me know if this seems right i am a rookie with a chronograph i didn't shoot it though my wife was videoing it i think she wanted to see me shoot my Chronograph :o
Created: 07/02/16 03:05 PM
Description: 10mm 180 grain xtreme
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 180.00
Temp: 68 °F
BP: 30.14 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 1146 525.00 206.28
4 1158 536.05 208.44
3 1135 514.97 204.30
2 1144 523.17 205.92
1 1150 528.67 207.00
Average: 1146.6 FPS
SD: 8.4 FPS
Min: 1135 FPS
Max: 1158 FPS
Spread: 23 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.4
True MV: 1148 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
Also can you guys tell me what i should enter for ballistic coefficient i left it as default not sure what to enter. My Chronograph is the Caldwell Precision Chronograph it seems to work well easy setup, hook it up to my smartphone look at the readings and can save the strings had a fun day out back really liking the new Delta.
Thank You yfdcap, i have heard that about the flat fps and the hammer spring will probably go that route, first gun with the dual recoil spring setup my wife could not rack the slide and she is no weakling she shoots and carries a Glock 30 has no problem with slide on it or her Sig 938, she was po'd she could not rack that slide guess this gun is all mine ;) here are some results with 7.7 Power Pistol same bullet used in the results on page 4
Created: 07/02/16 03:08 PM
Description: 10mm 180 grain xtreme
Notes 1:
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono(FT): 10.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight(gr): 180.00
Temp: 68 °F
BP: 30.14 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 1095 479.31 197.10
4 1103 486.34 198.54
3 1115 496.98 200.70
2 1097 481.06 197.46
1 1097 481.06 197.46
Average: 1101.4 FPS
SD: 8.2 FPS
Min: 1095 FPS
Max: 1115 FPS
Spread: 20 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.3
True MV: 1102 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
Do you think i have room to bump up the load from page 4 the 8.0 grains of Power Pistol, thinking of trying 8.2 and see what chrono says. these seemed accurate maybe just leave it as is.