Full-power 10mm 165gr deal
Anthony at PBR Ammo has offered up his 165's in full-power loading for $21.30/box of 50. I received notice today his shipment of Starline brass is on it's way. Spread the word to anyone you know who desires this. It's an outstanding deal anyway you look at it compared to what is out there.
Website:
http://www.pbrammo.com/catalog/ammunition-caliber/10mm
I'm not a member of Glock Talk, so if someone can cut and paste to their 10mm section that would be great or other 10mm spots. If the response is good it may be enough to keep it running. Let's hope!
It doesn't do much for me, as those are numbers I hope to see from 180gr, let alone 165gr. We already have better than that with Underwood. So for me personally, not really interested. Still a good price for what you get though.
I don't get it. I have to look back at who the guy/guys were that complained about stuff being too strong.
Kevin makes great ammo. The very top level 10mm at $25.00/box! Would I want to shoot nothing but the top level 10mm for target practicing? H E L L NO! It's hands down going to be the best value 10mm target ammo out there in Starline brass. It's real 10mm but you can shoot it all day more so than the extreme upper end stuff. Save on your gun a little and at $21.30 a box if you buy 10 you saved $37.00. If you can lead me to a better deal on something like that I would love to see it. It was like pulling teeth to get this going. Their were two options similar... both of which are gone now and likely to never return. Support those who support us!
You're right. You didn't and still don't get it I guess.
Let me try once more to spell it out for you. At 1250fps we mostly don't have a problem. It's when the same rounds are hitting 1300fps that many of us take pause. Why? Because CLEARLY there is an incosistency there. And the question becomes; How far might that inconsistency lead?
I'm not trying to be rude here, I just don't see how that is so hard to grasp.
And yes, there are some guys that seem to be wary with a 200XTP load at anything beyond 1200fps. But I don't think that's because they are literally worried about major issues at 1250fps, just that they see no need to go beyond 1200fps, or as some of the put it; "beyond original Norma spec."
And in regard to Original Norma Spec, I think those people bringing that up are wrong to do so without further info being available. I say that because we don't know what powder Norma used to hit 1200fps with a 200gr bullet. In other words, at 1250fps and 800X powder, Underwood may not actually be surpassing whatever pressure levels Norma was actually hitting. Maybe, maybe not, but we certainly don't know, and have no reason to suspect either way besides a velocity difference which is far from telling a whole story.
I don't get it... why the turn-off from something good like this. This thread has nothing to do with any of Kevin's stuff.
I only brought up Underwood as a comparison because you brought up the 165gr load in question as a full power loading. I'm not saying Underwood velocities have to be reached to be considered full power, just that I don't consider this 165gr load by PBR full power. 1306fps with a 165gr bullet (JHP load) = 625 lb-ft. I consider that a solid mid range performer, clearly surpassing 40S&W power levels, but not full power. Hence why I brought up Underwood which also has good pricing, but with real deal full power loads in every bullet weight.
Then there's the 165gr FMJ PBR load in the "Premium Line", and it is only reaching 532 lb-ft. That's just plain weak by 10mm potential standards overall. May as well be shooting 40S&W then.
You sure you aren't on Romnesia? You waffle alot ;D
It's full power. I got more than the rating and looking at the list the next three aren't much better. So if you don't like the consistency of Underwood, scared to shoot it... whatever the reason and would like to have something better than anything else at a price better than anything else here it is. What's your suggested for a plinking full-power?
The PBR looks like a good plinking round at a decent price. I applaud you, Intercooler, and PBR for support the 10mm shooting fraternity.
As far as the references to the other thread, we have been trying to explain that the extreme speads (200 grains up to 1299) are too much for the likes of many of us. On the other thread I suggested a market for "Norma level" or "classic level" 10mm loads (ie. 200 @ 1200). In this manner, the spreads up to 1240 or so aren't as dangerous for some of our stock guns. Actually, Redline said it, some of us don't see the need to push it to 1299. What's the sense? So one of us can have a KB, and then all the manufacturers will want to back their loads down to 1150?
If some guys want 200 grains at 1300 fps that's fine. Kevin and the other manufacturers can market an extreme velocity round for those who want it, and a "classic level" round for those who don't.
To reiterate....no, I have no desire to fire 200 grains at 1300 fps out of my Glock. 200 grains at 1200 (+ or -) will be fine for 95% of the 10mm shooters out there.
Again, I applaud you for having the passion and initiative to be a 10mm proponent.
Who's getting 1300 out of a 200gr? In a Glock 20 based off my results out of my Match 4.75" barrel expect this:
180gr 1310-1340 FPS. Nothing crazy there.
200gr 1240-1270 FPS. Stronger than Norma but not crazy.
220gr 1170-1200 FPS. I had a DoubleTap 215gr do 1201 FPS out of my same Match that Kevin's 220gr did 1200 FPS. Splitting hairs.
I do believe the original Norma was at a higher pressue rating. I can't remember where exactly I read it now or I would post it up.
Skip to 1:38 to see the second DoubleTap 215gr Hard Cast being fired. The first one gave an error and I only had two rounds.
Quote from: Intercooler on October 27 2012 06:31:56 PM MDT
Who's getting 1300 out of a 200gr? In a Glock 20 based off my results out of my Match 4.75" barrel expect this:
180gr 1310-1340 FPS. Nothing crazy there.
200gr 1240-1270 FPS. Stronger than Norma but not crazy.
220gr 1170-1200 FPS. I had a DoubleTap 215gr do 1201 FPS out of my same Match that Kevin's 220gr did 1200 FPS. Splitting hairs.
I do believe the original Norma was at a higher pressue rating. I can't remember where exactly I read it now or I would post it up.
It was referenced in the other thread. I don't know where he got his numbers.
Doc has it at 1284 which is an
average velocity:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjsXvXEryDJjdFhsRUcwSHRUcktCMmhOMTVFa25xa1E#gid=0
If you feel like reading through some stuff on pressures, etc... here is some stuff written when SwampFox (Mudrush) was still doing 10mm.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1332131&page=4
LOL I could have a touch of Romnesia, but the waffle terminology is a tad to George Dubya for my tastes. ;D
Regarding "full power", we'll just have to agree to disagree.
As for where does a 200gr @ 1300fps come from? It comes from MrRedbull616 hitting both 1291 and 1299 using a G20 in conjunction with a 4.6" Lone Wolf barrel. That's close enough to 1300fps to be called 1300fps, from a Glock 4.6, for me.
Your 4.75" Elite does, even under normal circumstances, posts higher numbers. Cool. But your Elite has also of course literally surpassed 1300fps with UW's 200XTP load rated for 1250fps, and I hold that in question of what pressure levels were reaching too. I expect your Elite to be faster, but with a 200gr bullet, not that much faster. For the round out of MrRedbull616's gun that achieved 1299fps, I wonder what that one would have achieve from your gun.
I also wonder what the other 41 rounds in MrRedbull616's box of 50 would have posted for velocity. He only tested 9, and they were all over the place. Are we to assume that the one that reached 1299 was the most powerful one in the box of 50?
Maybe I'm making much ado about nothing. Maybe not. Time will tell. I do know that my simple concerns are valid. I just don't know to what extent. In the mean time I'm just keeping it real, a tad bit of Romnesia or not. :D
It's really simple. If you don't trust it then don't buy or shoot it and that goes for any ammo. You can't talk out of one corner of your mouth saying something is good and the other corner criticize it. If you read that link I put up you will see mention of 40k-44k pressures and average pressures. Try to decipher it and relate it to what you fear in Kevin's stuff. I have never seen any pressure sign out of any ammo I have shot except Armscor. Have you? I sure don't read about any if they are out there (it's the internet so I know we would see it).
I save every single piece of brass and sell all of it to reloaders. Never a complaint about bulges, etc...
Let me refer you all to my post #2 in the stick...It explains the SAAMI testing parameters.
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/10mm-ammo-history/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/10mm-ammo-history/)
The link has a lot of good info. Though it leaves me with more questions than it answers. Mudrush says he didn't load his regular loads past 36,000psi. How does he know that? And if he was testing psi himself, are the results he came up with the same as a 3rd party tester would have come up with that tests exactly according to SAAMI, and did he test also according to SAAMI protocol? Heck if I know. Doesn't sound like anyone else does either. And that's just one point I ponder.
About the 44,000psi being mentioned in the link. I don't know where that comes from. Maybe someone made it on the internet?
What I do know from SAAMI's website regarding the 10mm Auto is the following:
Maximum Average Pressure = 37,500psi
Maximum Probable Lot Mean = 38,700psi
Maximum Probable Sample Mean = 40,500psi
As for how Kevin's stuff compares psi wise, who's to say? How does Kevin pressure test his stuff? Exactly SAAMI protocol? As for bulges, I've gotten them from Double Tap ammo. I don't care about bulges though. Smilies I do care about. Haven't had one yet though. I also haven't shot any of UW's stuff to find out. I will though, it's just not on the list of immediate stuff to do. I'm concentrating on handloading at this time and saving up for more stuff yet.
And yes, I can say good stuff at the same time as criticize UW. First, I love it that he makes that loads he does in general. That's awesome. On the other hand it would appear he engages in a sloppy load practice. That's not so good. If he would load consistently there would be no issue, or at least not anything to question. You simply don't seem to care, which is fine with me, that's your rightful opinion. One of these days I'll get some of Underwood's ammo and check it out for myself, looking into the matter further and in more detail.
As I know you're well aware, keep in mind, UW's regular 10mm loads are already beyond what can reasonably be asked for a Delta to handle. And they are near an upper thresh hold already for the Glock barrels. Why you are so surprised anyone with a Glock that clearly sees UW's incosistencies wouldn't at least take pause at a 200XTP load that sometimes bounces around 1300fps is beyond me. You of course don't own a Glock. Maybe that is why? I'm not really asking, but rather just saying.
Have we covered this enough yet? Do you still not understand where on earth I could possibly be coming from? I really don't get the confusion. I believe I've explained things quite well and thoroughly, not to mention repeatedly. If you don't get it at this point, I think I'm done taking the bait unless you have an honest question that hasn't been covered yet.
Cartridges Of The World 5th edition...10mm actually mentioned the 44,400psi in its original article...Post #1
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/10mm-ammo-history/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/10mm-ammo-history/)
Honestly I'm fine with all of them until I see some sign regardless of whatever piece of plastic or steel I have in my hand. It's like flinching without needing to.
So you don't even shoot Underwood. Wow. Yea not worth you getting your feathers ruffled over. I look over the spreads on David's sheet and can't decipher which is the consistent one. Can you highlight it to me? Underwood, DoubleTap, Buffalo Bore, PBR, Armscor, etc... has people that will either choose to shoot their ammo (if they don't reload) or decide not to.
Shadow that link you posted showed a 165 @1300 FPS being full-power in the 600 LB. range. 98% of users agree with that statement and even David Sneed when asked what he considered full-power 10mm he said in the 600 LB. range for the load being shot. We have gotten pretty spoiled!
Thanks The_Shadow.
Time will tell.
The velocity limits I see for some manufactures and handloading manuals are not because of pressure limits, but rather that of bullet design performance. Seeing how 40S&W is the more popular cartridge, most bullets are designed around this platform and velocity for proper performance these days. But with the "Mighty 10mm" we all think in terms of hot rod performance tring to get the most speed/velocity even when it may not be needed, just for bragging rights I suppose. But it sure is fun to crank them puppies out just because! :D
Whareas in years past the true 10mm designed 200 grain and the 170 grain 10mm were infact designed for 1200 and 1450 respectfully. Even these parameters can be safely exceeded by the true 10mm performance these days.
In the lighter weight bullets if driven too fast/hard they will roll back past the full open mushroom diameter. The bonded bullets were made to prevent fragmentation and core seperation. That has helped to retain more weight even at 10mm velocities, while exceeding the original design parameters. The commercial boutique loaders are cattering to what is possible and the demand for faster velocity.
They say Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so I like to demystify the loads by taking them apart, to see what's inside! :o
Hornady does show established parameters for their bullet designs for best performances...
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/HornadySpec.jpg)
So I sort of look at these and consider impact velocities at the range of hunting distances when working up load performance criterior.
Don't take me wrong here, I like the entire spectrum and load my own from mild to wild! ;D
All the bickering aside about the relative merits of this load, it is a pretty good deal. These are basically $420/1000. Components are going to run you $350/1000 by the time you pay haz-mat fees.
No ammo manafacture with a brain in his head is going to make a round that will blow up. He would have to be a complete idiot to do that. In todays world of lawsuits if you blow it up the guy will own you ammo business. That is why you do not see loads pushed to the limit except by handloaders. I have not found any factory ammo real factory ammo that I was afraid to shoot.
Some of the boutique manufacturers have been having problems. The recent thread of the KB with Swampfox ammo comes to mind.
Where can one get a 170 jhp at 1300?
I would like to try some PBR ammo. However, I'm not likely to buy any. My issue isn't with the quality (I've heard lots of great things), my issue is with having to first send a copy of my ID. I understand why they do it but I do not like it so I make my choice and do not buy it. In this age of government wanting more and probably ultimate control over anything regarding firearms any additional sources of how and what I do bothers me. Not slamming the company and I have no hard feelings. Just my choice.
I had to do the same thing for Underwood.
That's pretty standard for any ammo anywhere. Also if you sell some to someone you better get a copy or you could be behind bars.
I never had to send in any ID to Underwood... And I'm in NY. Just checked the boxes that it was legal for me to ship and own, which it is for now.
Different places do things different I guess. Maybe it's a State law where they are selling out of.
Funny thing is for $5 I can get a copy of anyone's driving record with a ton more info as long as I have a name. ;D
Quote from: 4949shooter on February 24 2013 07:28:37 AM MST
Quote from: pacapcop on February 24 2013 07:17:13 AM MST
Where can one get a 170 jhp at 1300?
I wish I knew.
Factory NORMA back in the day. ;)
As for hot 165g loads... I made my own today. :o
100rounds with 14g of AA#9 and a 165 Speer Gold Dot HP... ;D ;D ;D
CW
CW
Quote from: pacapcop on February 24 2013 07:17:13 AM MST
Where can one get a 170 jhp at 1300?
There was some of the original 170 Norma on gun broker, last week.
PMC on there now.
As of last night I saw 34 boxes for $555.00 :-\