Exploded 10mm Nighthawk 1911
(http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/IMG_2305.jpg)
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/05/26/exploded-10mm-nighthawk-1911/ (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/05/26/exploded-10mm-nighthawk-1911/)
Well well a 1911 and Armscor Ammo! Say it isn't so! Not sure what happened to this one but here is what we looked at in the Armscor cartridge Pull-Down this is what was found:
Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Armscor 180gr FMJ (plated)
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1150 fps
Muzzle Energy: 529 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: A USA - Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.5740"/Dia. 0.4000": 180gr. FMJ (plated)
Actual weigh 180.0 grains Crimp Diameter 0.3990"
Meplat 0.2650" / Concaved Base
C.O.A.L.: 1.2470"
Primer: Nickel color
Case: Diameter 0.4200" Crimp Diameter 0.4220" Length 0.9860"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: Tight Group 6.4 grains
Seeing that I have heard of guys having issues with the TightGorup powder over the years, it is a fast burning powder and at that loading double charge with 12.8 grains is possible...
This is what 12.8 grains TightGroup looks like in the 10mm brass
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The brittleness of the slide and frame seem strange, but what intrigues me even more is why the grips are still intact on the frame. Mose casing blowouts will blow the magazine and guts out and even the grip panels off the frame. This seems to show the upper chamber of the barrel split as well???????
In today's mechanized world there are suppose to be system checks for out of tolerance (such as a powder check) things.
One thing comes to mind is powder bridging, where the powder gets stuck inside the powder drop, that case goes out short on powder, the next casing comes around and the previous charge that was hung up drops along with the normal charge into it making it over charged!
It seems awfully weird the muzzle end expanded more.
Based on the pictures I am not sure the case head failed first. It looks like the front of the chamber under the locking lugs gave way. This would direct the pressure into the slide and dust cover, explaining why the grips are still intact. And why the slide and dust cover are such a wreck.
Apparently none of the case was found.
You could not even fake that if you tried.
Quote from: sqlbullet on May 26 2016 12:24:18 PM MDT
Based on the pictures I am not sure the case head failed first. It looks like the front of the chamber under the locking lugs gave way. This would direct the pressure into the slide and dust cover, explaining why the grips are still intact. And why the slide and dust cover are such a wreck.
Apparently none of the case was found.
All of us handloaders will think of OVER CHARGE of powder as the cause just because.
We will have to wonder if the barrel was defective? ??? I know that Bar-Sto rates their barrels as being 180,000 PSI rating.
QuoteAll Bar-Sto Pistol barrels are machined from solid 416 stainless steel bar stock which has been heat treated 39 to 43 RC and 180,000 PSI tensile strength.
So what are the STI's rated at?
QuoteSTI barrels are made from 416R rifle grade stainless steel billet forgings. The bore is gun drilled, button rifled, then air gauged to offer the most exacting size, and most consistent barrel available. The rifling is 1 in 16 twist and has six lands and grooves. The barrels are vacuum heat treated and vacuum tempered to 40 Rockwell, then machined to exacting specifications.
And the Slide and Frame???
QuoteSTI International slides are CNC milled from pre-hardened bar stock 4140 carbon steel to ensure slide rail exactness. The breech face is wire EDM cut for maximum precision angle.
QuoteThe STI 2011 Frame is manufactured from 4140 Maxell Alloy steel, pre-cut for high ride beavertail grip safety and ambidextrous thumb safety configuration. The frame is CNC milled billet, creating a very accurate frame to build the highest quality pistols.
NightHawk frames...
QuoteAs always, our frames are cut right here in Berryville Arkansas from solid forgings. We never use a cast frame.
I have never seen anything like that before.
Could there have been a barrel obstruction?
That is a great question!
Ouch. Hate to see that. About the most expensive 10 you can blow up.
Quote from: BEEMER! on May 26 2016 03:07:45 PM MDT
I have never seen anything like that before.
Could there have been a barrel obstruction?
This seems very possible to me. Squib followed by normal round.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
NightHawk Customs posted 4 hours ago they disassembled this 1911 had proof it was a squib load that cause the gun to fail. With ammo manufactures running 24/7/365 and they have every round they can make already sold this could happen more. I have never seen as many recalls on ammo,firearms, and powder just last glad they caught them but it should have been caught and never have left the manufacture. To me reloading your own ammo QC is a lot better. My son has a Ruger 10/22 carbine and had a squib round and thankfully it just bulged the barrel. Found a like new barrel on Ebay $30 shipped when Ruger wanted $115 for a new one and never mentioned replacing it. Factory ammo and he was shooting double taps just couldn't stop because he was into the cadence and multiple targets.
The slide looks cast or over heat treated to me. If Nighthawk uses bar stock it should not look so crystalized. But NightHawk stood tall replacing the pistol even after a so called gunsmith beat and pried the slide to remove it enough to remove the brass.
That is great to hear about Nighthawk standing by this.
Squib. Gotta remember that too little powder in many ways is more dangerous than too much. But I really doubt a squib that obstructed the bore cycled the gun.
Good lesson for us all to learn again. If you get a malfunction, check your bore before you send another down the lane.
The problem with that is many shooters today are speed racers. They fire them off about as fast as it will go!
Quote from: Intercooler on May 27 2016 09:11:44 AM MDT
The problem with that is many shooters today are speed racers. They fire them off about as fast as it will go!
It is fun to blast away! :o Sometimes :D I like to let loose with a full magazine every now and then.
This does make me want to by a Nighthawk. Great customer service.
I have no problem with just blasting away.
Just saying when blasting if you have a malfunction remember to thoroughly check it out.
And if you want to run malfunction drills, set up malfunction drills. But if you have a non-setup malfunction, you should check your bore, unless it is the "real deal" gunfight.
Quote from: sstewart on May 26 2016 08:16:12 PM MDT
Quote from: BEEMER! on May 26 2016 03:07:45 PM MDT
I have never seen anything like that before.
Could there have been a barrel obstruction?
This seems very possible to me. Squib followed by normal round.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Was my 1st thought. But after looking at the other pics of it, to me, looks more like an over charge.
Would like to see the barrel out of the frame.
This is totally a swag (Scientific wild A** guess)
But it seems to me that this is a squib, followed by an overcharged round.
Maybe one round got light, The next round got heavy. Both got loaded in the box.
like I said a SWAG.
I too wonder about the cycling part.
Quote from: sstewart on May 27 2016 06:12:30 PM MDT
This is totally a swag (Scientific wild A** guess)
But it seems to me that this is a squib, followed by an overcharged round.
Maybe one round got light, The next round got heavy. Both got loaded in the box.
like I said a SWAG.
I too wonder about the cycling part.
With insufficient gas exiting the muzzle, it wouldn't cycle (even under "normal" conditions). Either the bullet(s) remained in the barrel (unlikely), or the gas pressure was relieved by the new porting job, as well as the link pin and other mangled metal fouling the works. This looks like a squib, followed by an otherwise normal round chambered. Standard pressure 10mm has more than enough energy to do that, under the right (wrong) conditions. By the looks of the fine machine work performed by that guy's "gunsmith", the bullets and/or case didn't cooperate. I think the missing part of this story is, the guy (thought he) had to get the case out of the gun before calling Nighthawk, or he would be on the hook for his $3K paperweight. From the looks of the prying marks at the hood, it was likely still in battery, locked up tight after the event, and the reason the grip panels and his hand were still intact.
your most likely correct.
when i have had squib. the report is odd then followed by the FTF is kinda a tip off.
I bet this guy manually racked another round and pulled the trigger.
Quote from: sqlbullet on May 27 2016 01:20:45 PM MDT
I have no problem with just blasting away.
Just saying when blasting if you have a malfunction remember to thoroughly check it out.
And if you want to run malfunction drills, set up malfunction drills. But if you have a non-setup malfunction, you should check your bore, unless it is the "real deal" gunfight.
Gotcha.
Crazy how the slide split like that. Glad the shooter wasn't hurt.
Post from NHC Rep on another forum.
Quote from: NighthawkRep, post: 374690, member: 10844Based on what the customer had told us last night we agreed to replace the pistol at no charge. The pistol was given to him by his wife for his birthday, he loved the pistol and told us it was the most accurate pistol he had. Mark questioned him about the possibly of a squib load or an over charge and he told us to his knowledge everything was normal. We believe based on his knowledge he told us the truth. Mark told him that we could not explain what happened based on his answer. We would not disassemble his pistol, we would use it for a display piece.
This morning pictures and blog content started appearing online and at that point we decided to investigate further due to the photo's on the blog showing pictures of the pistol in a different condition than we received. Our customer did not put these pictures online. The pistol that we received had been pried and beat open. The owner of the pistol said a gunsmith had done so to remove the spent case. We did not receive the spent case when the pistol was returned.
When we broke the pistol down and examined the barrel, we saw clear evidence that a squib load caused the damage. We have taken numerous photos to document these findings.
Last night we wanted to give the customer a response as soon as possible. Mark agreed at that time to replace his pistol free of charge and we will stand by our word, but we wanted to present these facts.
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(http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y369/cemorticiandeadguy/1464433315831_zpsasyssn0g.jpg)
(http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y369/cemorticiandeadguy/1464433323733_zpsgxzcdua7.jpg)
(http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y369/cemorticiandeadguy/1464433330627_zpsgowousbq.jpg)
Those barrel pictures tell the tale! Glad they shared those pictures so we could grasp the damage better! :o
Kudos to Nighthawk Custom Firearms for them making their customer whole after this ordeal... 8)
When I first picked up on the story, I thought it may have been an over charge. Seeing these I would agree with the findings of a squib with a followed disastrous shot. But to have such a fine firearm wrecked is a testament to what can happen when things go wrong!
So if the Armscor round that squibed was short on powder, could the next actually have been one with an overage, if this was a result of a powder bridging situation being the next in line? ???
Quote from: The_Shadow on May 28 2016 06:26:29 AM MDT
Those barrel pictures tell the tale! Glad they shared those pictures so we could grasp the damage better! :o
Kudos to Nighthawk Custom Firearms for them making their customer whole after this ordeal... 8)
When I first picked up on the story, I thought it may have been an over charge. Seeing these I would agree with the findings of a squib with a followed disastrous shot. But to have such a fine firearm wrecked is a testament to what can happen when things go wrong!
So if the Armscor round that squibed was short on powder, could the next actually have been one with an overage, if this was a result of a powder bridging situation being the next in line? ???
Only The_Shadow knows
Quote from: The_Shadow on May 28 2016 06:26:29 AM MDT
Those barrel pictures tell the tale! Glad they shared those pictures so we could grasp the damage better! :o
Kudos to Nighthawk Custom Firearms for them making their customer whole after this ordeal... 8)
When I first picked up on the story, I thought it may have been an over charge. Seeing these I would agree with the findings of a squib with a followed disastrous shot. But to have such a fine firearm wrecked is a testament to what can happen when things go wrong!
So if the Armscor round that squibed was short on powder, could the next actually have been one with an overage, if this was a result of a powder bridging situation being the next in line? ???
Yep, that's why the whole story couldn't be told until the barrel came out.
Squib was my 1st thought. But, as mentioned already, could've been a squib followed by an over charge.
Just goes to show how focussed and keenly aware we all must stay on the firing line.
I'm wondering if the shooter was being honest about the ammo manufacturer in the event a warranty issue came up. Only the shooter and the smith that pried the round out know for sure.
Quote from: Deadguy on May 28 2016 09:06:42 AM MDT
I'm wondering if the shooter was being honest about the ammo manufacturer in the event a warranty issue came up. Only the shooter and the smith that pried the round out know for sure.
I suspect (not wonder) the same. If this was an "innocent" incident, what urgency would there have been to damage/destroy evidence of the event? If it was "Armscor" or whatever brand of "factory" ammo, that would be important to Nighthawk's investigation. Add to that, the spent case wasn't included with the pistol, and the pistol was extensively molested between the original images sent to Nighthawk, and what Nighthawk received. Now, we'll probably never know. If I were Nighthawk, I would require the spend case that was removed, as well as the remaining unfired rounds from that box, prior to honoring the replacement of a very expensive pistol. That would not be an unreasonable request.
This is clearly suspect and I do not believe its the gun companies fault. However they did the right thing and it will pay off with good publicity. There will be more goodwill than the cost of the gun.
Quote from: Wolfie on May 28 2016 02:41:47 PM MDT
There will be more goodwill than the cost of the gun.
You are spot on!
And this is why I am often wary of a company that won't make good on products in extraordinary events. If your product is good, standing behind it like this will buy you far more publicity, marketing hype and new customers than you could buy with a couple hundred $$'s anywhere else.
That's what I preach about Ruger. Their unwritten policy is exceptional!
It'll buff out. ::)
But seriously, if it was a squib there'd be a bulge in the barrel where bullets collide. This looks to me an overcharge.
It is confirmed a squib by the mfg.
Quote from: Quick 2 on May 26 2016 09:02:29 PM MDT
[...] he was shooting double taps just couldn't stop because he was into the cadence and multiple targets.
Sounds like a good reason to never do doubletaps!
A squid that creates a bore obstruction won't cycle the gun. This a double tap is not possible.
Based on the makers inspection, a bore obstruction was the cause, which calls this account into suspicion.
Quote from: Mike_Fontenot on June 07 2016 03:13:20 PM MDT
Quote from: Quick 2 on May 26 2016 09:02:29 PM MDT
[...] he was shooting double taps just couldn't stop because he was into the cadence and multiple targets.
Sounds like a good reason to never do doubletaps!
This is only a factor with a revolver, or a manually cycled semi-auto. As SQL pointed out, and as I did before, if the bullet doesn't exit the bore, the action doesn't cycle.
Something else that should be noted is, within a few days of this original post, and the original linked post at TFB, the original TFB post narrative, content, and photos have been extensively edited, with several deletions of text and photos. Those entering this discussion late will not have a full take on the facts, and course of events. Of the photos originally posted, only ONE of them, the photo of the underside, is an original photo BEFORE the "gunsmith" severely molested the pistol, previously reported, in an attempt to disassemble the pistol and remove the spent case. The case, prior to said molestation, was essentially intact, except for the split-line corresponding with the 12 and 6 O'clock chamber/barrel split. The original images, which are now MIA, clearly showed NO indication of case head deformation or case web bulge at the feed ramp area. The Nighthawk respondent stated this was clearly a case of a squib, followed by a "normal" round fired. To speculate that a factory squib was followed by a factory overcharge, is simply absurd, in that, it is simply improbable to impossible. Keep in mind, the original post at TFB was a second hand account that was experienced by a "friend" of the OP, without the prior knowledge of the person(s) who experienced the event. At this point, I suggest anyone entering late in the discussion to consider the original post at TFB no more credible than fiction, with no informed responses after about May 31, which, according to the responses, was about the time of the edits. I did not save the original images, so you'll just have to take my word for it, or not. If, by chance, one of you DID save the images, it may be a service to all of us if they were posted here, or otherwise made available.