So if someone was to ask you the question of which production 10mm handgun is the best choice right out of the box, how would you answer?
What do you think are the best choices for new 10mm handguns. Ones that can handle the majority of ammo without the need of modifications. Rank your choices from best choice to least favorite.
Maybe you might also want to include a second list of favorite 10mm handguns that perform well with some modifications too.
Take a gun out of the box and run it? Glock 20.
They aren't my favorite guns. For many guys they don't point naturally. And some fanboi's are real tools. But the fact is if you hand me a box that says Glock 20, I have a very, very high degree of confidence I could face the zombie horde and not die because the gun let me down.
Second choice? EAA Witness Elite Stock I. Loses to Glock on price plus EAA mags can be troublesome. Great option for guys that don't like Glocks.
Once you get into mods....Gets tough, but probably the EAA Witness full size steel. +10% mag springs, a 20-22lb recoil spring and 200 rounds of break in and it is a pretty solid gun. After a few weeks I would sand blast it and give it a black finish, probably cerakote over park. Very happy with mine that is finished that way.
What about Dan Wesson or STI or Sig?
First, price. Most guys are on a budget and it does matter.
Second, capacity. Yes, generally one or two shots do it. But, sometimes they don't and no one ever lost a gun fight because they had too much ammo.
Third, and I am looking at you 1911. Reliability. Yes, some 1911's run great. 500 or more mean rounds between stoppages. If the operator knows his stuff and if the gun was built on a Tuesday morning after the hangover was gone but before the tech was bored. But, go get 20 Dan Wessons, or STI or Kimber, and 20 Glocks. Fire 1000 round from each gun and record the stoppages. The best 1911 might beat the worst Glock. You might even have two or three bottom Glocks eclipsed by two or three top 1911's. But overall Glock will win that stoppage context, by a margin that can't really be questioned.
I love my 1911's. I think the Witness guns are the easiest and most comfortable to shoot. But out of the box, Glock.
my 2 ยข.
--But, everyone should have at least one 1911, preferably in 10mm, and at least one Witness, same caliber to go with their Glock 20.
Ditto, SQL's reply. Glock 20. "Out of the box" being the key phrase, there's no comparison, and second place is very distant. Of the remaining pistols which are not dishwasher safe, it's mostly a matter of preference and/or economy. Nighthawks run. Cabots run. Period. A little closer to the economic end of the range, and if actual reliability were averaged, I'd give an edge to the later S&W 10_6 pistols. My opinion, based on my observations, of course.
And, since you didn't specify, any of the factory chambered 10mm revolvers, D/A or S/A, beat them all. Of course they have disadvantages (capacity, etc.), but none related to function or reliability.
Modifications? How fast do you want to spend? As with vehicles, there are no real limits. Also, a completely modified Glock with all the bells and whistles are still significantly less expensive than entry-level, mid-range 1911's, so it depends on where you are, where you want to be, and what it's worth to you. 1911's are purdy, Glocks are not. Most of my firearms are tools, while a few are toys. Tools, form follows function, 100%. Toys are fun or curiosities, or run less than 100%. Again, my opinion, and my practice.
Metal or Tupperware? ;D
1. Glock 29
2. Sig 220
3. Para Hunter
4. Witness Hunter
5. Glock 40
6. DW Bruin
7. Kimber Eclipse
8. RI 6 inch single stack
9. DW RZ 10
10. Colt Delta
No problems with the first 5, the last 5 all needed to be sent back to the factory for repairs.
"Semi-autos are more tolerant of abuse but revolvers are more tolerant of neglect." - Chuck Haggard
Also
"People who say revolvers never malfunction never shoot their revolvers." - Tom Givens
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_hF-C1Dl_0
I guess for me, for this audience, in the context of needing a gun to do it's job consistently, I discount a revolver. I can't take a revolver to a two day, 500 round course with no cleaning kit and expect to get through the course. It will require several cleanings to keep running. Revolvers just don't like that kind of abuse.
But, I can toss one in my safe and leave it for 10 years and be quite certain it will go bang six times when I get it out. Not sure I would have that feeling of confidence even with a Glock. Over 10 years even if the springs don't take a set, the ammo might corrode together in the magazine and not feed right.
If Smith & Wesson were still making the 10xx series of guns today that would be my choice, based on the ones I have and shoot.
After they stop producing the guns and even before S&W quit making replacement parts, I started searching for a everyday shooter. I considered the EAA's very hard but seeing the cracked slides on some, (this was a bad time for the EAA's) I moved to the Glock products for their reputation of reliability...
I opted for the Glock 29 as a carry piece, it has lived up to the reliability very well. So much so I also bought a Glock 20SF and it too has run flawlessly in both stock configuration and the wolff non captive recoil rods and springs for each.
One of our members had issues with his Glock 20 and thought it was his AMMO...he sent 50 rounds of this commercial ammo for me to test from my G-20 in stock configuration and also with the aftermarket recoil system. I loaded different magazines, with varying number of rounds, shooting it normal sights up, gun canted homeboy style, gun upside down, to see if it would induce a fail to reliably function. The people at the range thought I was nuts till I explained why I was doing this. The G-20 never missed a beat then or ever since I had it. I test some extreme ammo with hi and low impulse looking for issues with none found. This says a lot for the Plastic Fantastic Tupperware Pistols. ;D
That's a tough question as I have had nothing but great performance from my:
1. Sig 220
2. Glock 20
3. Glock 29
4. Colt DE
5. In stock condition my RIA 1911.
The 220 is new, I have about 500 rounds through it so far, a lot of handloads and Winchester ST 175's. I just got 4 boxes of Sig 180 HP and have to see how they are.
The Glock 20 has run 100% as has the Glock 29. The 29 is my cool weather concealed weapon, in the summer months (March through November) I pocket carry a 9MM.
The Colt DE shoots great but I hesitate to shoot hot loads through it due to not fully supported barrel. But you have to have one.
Lastly, the RIA 1911 shoots great but puts the brass in the next county. I purchased a different recoil assembly for it and it worked well but the mags would never lock back on empty. I need to put it back to original condition.
I previously had a 1006 and a 1076 and they too both ran flawlessly, built like tanks. Unfortunately S&W stopped stocking parts and I decided to sell them.
Both my 20 and my 29 have been 100%
I have messed with the 29 a bit, the 20 just runs a stiffer spring when firing really hot stuff.
The 1066 is more or less perfect also and was my 1st 10mm.
Kimber eclipse was ok. From factory a few hiccups, stiffer spring, radius firing pin stop, ran better but down the road it went.
Horrible experience with Rock Island, truly a nightmare. After third trip back, at their expense, they cut me a check for what I paid for it and told me wait a year or so before trying another as they had some "bugs" to work out. No way, I was so irritated that I sold my 2 45`s of theirs.
I think their customer service stands on their heads handling problems related to manufacture in a third world country.
My latest 10, an eea limited pro, shoots the best, is comfortable, and has good capacity.
It will need to be shot a lot more before it can replace the glocks, but it could happen
After all that blather, I would say glock G20 is number 1 out of the box. It has handled everything I have fed it and is gun to shoot.
Russ
I have a few Glocks in 9mm. One of them is my daily carry. I have been contemplating picking one up in 10mm as well.
You likely won't regret it. The 20 and the 29 just run.
Well I guess you can call me a Glock fanboy. Don't think I am a tool though ::). I currently have a G20 gen3, G20 gen4, a G29 gen4 and a G40. They have all been 100 percent with factory and my reloads and stock barrels. They are not 100 percent with aftermarket barrels and reloads. With work and the right load they can be though. I have LW, Storm lake and KKM barrels. If I wanted only one 10 and wanted it as trouble free and affordable as possible it would be a Glock hands down. That being said I also have two Colt's and have had a Kimber. The Colt's have been 100 percent with factory and less than 100 percent with reloads. They are very fun to shoot. I do love 1911's though The kimber was not reliable at all with factory or reloads. Those are the only 10's I can speak to from experience. Would like to try a Smith if I can find one at a decent price. I would actually like to try them all.
Quote from: yfdcap on May 26 2016 09:39:02 PM MDT
Well I guess you can call me a Glock fanboy. Don't think I am a tool though ::).
I am sure you are not. And I amended my post to indicate that come can be, but not all.
I may be a Glock fanboy, but I'm probably a 10mm fanboy also. ;D
While I would love a nice 1911 10mm, I can't afford it. I could probably have my G29sf, and a G40 for what a reliable 1911 10mm will cost(I may be way off, haven't priced too many 1911 10mm's). I like the 1911 platform, but until my money tree starts producing money I'll be playing with my G29sf for awhile.
Quote from: sqlbullet on May 27 2016 08:23:16 AM MDT
Quote from: yfdcap on May 26 2016 09:39:02 PM MDT
Well I guess you can call me a Glock fanboy. Don't think I am a tool though ::).
I am sure you are not. And I amended my post to indicate that come can be, but not all.
No worries, just messing with you. Fact is many of the Glock fanboys are tools. I hang out at Glocktalk and there are some real piece of works there. Some real good people also.
Quote from: Blades on May 27 2016 09:32:34 AM MDT
I may be a Glock fanboy, but I'm probably a 10mm fanboy also. ;D
While I would love a nice 1911 10mm, I can't afford it. I could probably have my G29sf, and a G40 for what a reliable 1911 10mm will cost(I may be way off, haven't priced too many 1911 10mm's). I like the 1911 platform, but until my money tree starts producing money I'll be playing with my G29sf for awhile.
Check out the tangfoglio line. Most are well under what a "nice" 1911 will cost. Gives you that steel gun shootability and holds near double the rounds.
- P220
- P220
- P220
-
here are the 10mm guns I own in "best" order
1) P220
2) RMW Extreme AR
3) Glock 29
4) Witness Limited
5) Glock 40
6) Glock 20
7) RI Tac II
Only the RI had to go back for an extractor that was bent. They also sent me 9 mm slide stop. After I had my gunsmith rework this gun it has reliable
#2 and #7 Reliability is very dependent on the magazines.
#2 is QC10 glock magazine version
The order in which I purchased them are
1) RI Tac II
2) witness match - sold
3) Witness Limited
4) Glock 29
5) RMW Extreme AR
6) Glock 40
7) Glock 20 - purchase slide by itself first, purchased a Glock 41 MOS, then sold the Glock 41 slide, kept the frame
8) P220 SAO
Well, the original post doesn't state a purpose, range, cc, home defense, or hunting. That makes it impossible to answer.
As to reliable...
My Tanfoglio Limited Pro is fool proof with any ammo, and can handle hotter loads than my Glock. Its heavy to carry, but is far and away my favorite range 10mm.
The G20 gave me problems early on, but in stock configuration, it is reliable with most ammo. Weight is less of an issue, but I don't like the idea of a fairly light trigger without a positive safety for carry. The ugly thing does shoot through any degree of abuse, dirt, grime, and deserves its shout out for that. I do carry outside the waist band as a back-up while hunting, but normally with an empty chamber.
The Tanfoglio compact steel is not, and has not been reliable to carry. The 12 round magazines suck, but if it were reliable, it would be carried alot. I like the pistol, but it is frustration when it fails to run.
That's the off the shelf 10mm handguns I've had and my ranking them. The 10mm offerings for carry are too limited IMHO, and my primary carry is a 9mm CZ RAMI because of that. Love the little thing, and I wish CZ would also chamber 10mm as an option.
Greg
I can only rank the three 10's I own... EAA Hunter, RIA and P220 SIG.
My favorite to shoot is the Hunter. All I have done to it is to install a Wolf recoil spring
The SIG screams quality build but I don't grab it to shoot much.. not sure why... possibly the trigger. I did install a Gray Guns spring kit and I like the trigger better but its still not a gun I love to shoot.. strange.
The RIA is my second favorite to shoot.. however I did the trigger... went to a 22 LB recoil spring.. installed a flat firing pin stop and a heavier main spring so its not stock. I also had to do some grinding the prevent the slide from locking back before the last round. Now its a sweet gun!
Quote from: Geeman on May 27 2016 09:48:52 PM MDT
Well, the original post doesn't state a purpose, range, cc, home defense, or hunting. That makes it impossible to answer.
Greg
I disagree, if you read the OP, you most certainly CAN answer his question.
I stick with the G20, as I previously stated, although so far, this tanfoglio I recently purchased is a riot.
Russ
Glock fanboy here. Tool or not. :))
Next on the list is a Smith 1000 series.
I might pick the Sig, but the problems my agency is having with the 229 right now cause me to take a step back.
Wow my legion 229 in 40 is my edc. And I really like it.
All my Sig's have been just as reliable as my Glocks.
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My take is this when most MFG bailed on the 10 mm two companies kept on producing them;
EAA and Glock
These two take the prize. The Glock model 20 is an out standing gun then add in the the 29 and the great hunting rig Glock MOS Model 40. Virtues of the EAA are well known and they like Glock kept on producing a number versions and for the most part these two Companies kept the 10mm alive with affordable reliable and accurate handguns.
Quote from: Ramjet on May 29 2016 07:39:16 PM MDT
My take is this when most MFG bailed on the 10 mm two companies kept on producing them;
EAA and Glock
These two take the prize. The Glock model 20 is an out standing gun then add in the the 29 and the great hunting rig Glock MOS Model 40. Virtues of the EAA are well known and they like Glock kept on producing a number versions and for the most part these two Companies kept the 10mm alive with affordable reliable and accurate handguns.
Well said. I never thought of it that way but you are absolutely correct.
I bought glocks years ago but always wondered about the tanfoglio models until just recently.
Damn, I love my new limited pro... Russ
Thanks the offering are abound now and it is very subjective.
Self defense I love Springfield 1911 and I have a custom RIA from Reeder that shoots anything I feed it and it is very accurate. But given the task of Hunting and woods carry I always reach for the new MOS model 40 or my Model 20 SF .
So ranking the guns is such subjective opinion and although is interesting, it is very self serving. :D :D :D :D
We are all biased by our experiences. So our rankings are biased, but valid. Bounded in that we don't know what we don't know.
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I own several handguns when it comes to the 10mm like many on here I have a soft spot/love relationship with it.
Of my 10mm I own I rate them as follows:
Kimber TLE it's reliable great sights and accurate, but limited on capacity
EEA tangfoglio great gun fits my hands decent capacity
Glock 20 my goto hiking packing all around outdoor gun I lightened the trigger a bit BIG grip decent shooter but the two above are more accurate in my hands.
Glock 29 put it in my front Hoodie pocket and read the statement above its not really a compact but not a full size bought it on a whim and often wonder why
S&W 610 fun reliable wheel gun limited on capacity but easily loads unloads and shoots 40 easily with moon clips
RIA standard in 1911 love it but was the only one I had an issue with factory put the wrong recoil spring in it they quickly sent me a new one within two days it arrived . Great value for the money
I shoot them all as much as I can prefer the 1911 platform but as I stated the tangfoglio fits best in my hand. I've ta k end two deer with the glock 20 and was very impressed and living in Nw Colorado I hike alot in areas where bear cougars and two legged predators are present. I usallycarry the glock 20 most due to capacity and the durable finish .though I don't feel under gunned with any of them.
Let me throw the Tang hat in here ;) ;)
It's one of the few that you can basically say will run it all right out of the box. No barrel swaps, etc... Besides that you aren't really cool until you have at least three :o
Oh damn, back in High School again. According to Intercooler, I am not cool at all :)
Quote from: Intercooler on June 02 2016 05:48:24 PM MDT
Let me throw the Tang hat in here ;) ;)
It's one of the few that you can basically say will run it all right out of the box. No barrel swaps, etc... Besides that you aren't really cool until you have at least three :o
I have been a glock guy for quite awhile but knew there was something better out there.
I recently drank the Tang and I am a believer... Just a great platform for the 10mm.
Russ
I've looked at them and fondled them, just haven't been sure. However I bought the Sig 220-10 sight unseen and I love it!
SIG P220
The others.
To carry everyday....Glock 29?
I notice the 10mm isn't mentioned on SIG's website. Under specs on P220s they only show 45 acp as caliber. Were they only made as a Lipsey's exclusive?
Quote from: EdMc on June 03 2016 09:25:49 AM MDT
SIG P220
The others.
To carry everyday....Glock 29?
I notice the 10mm isn't mentioned on SIG's website. Under specs on P220s they only show 45 acp as caliber. Were they only made as a Lipsey's exclusive?
No just the DA/SA version. The SAO versions where available to all Sig dealers. I have seen both versions locally.
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No just the DA/SA version. The SAO versions where available to all Sig dealers. I have seen both versions locally.
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Local store sold quite a few of all three versions.....they haven't had any in quite a while. Made me wonder when I didn't see the 10mm listed on the SIG website any longer. I'll have to ask what's up at the local dealers next time I'm there.
Going by my personal experience with 10mm pistols that I own or have owned in the past, here are my rankings.
1. Night Hawk Custom Recon Enforcer- Out of the box: Match barrel, match trigger, night sights, ambidextrous safety, light rail, and extended magwell. Most accurate and reliable 1911 10mm pistol I ever owned (and still do).
2. Kimber Custom TLE/ RL II- Out of the box: Match trigger, match barrel, night sights, light rail. Very accurate and dependable 1911 10mm pistol.
3. Colt Stainless Delta Elite. No light rail available. Not as accurate as the NHC. Trigger and barrel are not to the level of the NHC. No night sights.
4. Glock model 20. I bought one when they were first released back in 1990. This pistol would not chamber more than one JHP round. Every second round would stovepipe. This was the least reliable of all of the aforementioned 10mm pistols that I have ever owned. No night sights. Gun was brand new and was returned to the dealer for a refund. I've read in the last few years that people seem to have much better luck than I did with the model 20. My confidence in them was lost back in 1990. I haven't had any of these issues with my 1911 pistols.
5. LAR Grizzly pistol chambered in 10mm with their 10mm conversion kit. This chambering in the Grizzly was like the Glock 20. It would chamber the first JHP, but, the second round would stovepipe. Unfortunately I sold this pistol. I should have kept it. They don't make them anymore. It was very reliable (and powerful) in the original 45 Winchester Magnum cartridge. Sorry, I forgot that you mentioned "current production" guns.
Sounds like you had a lemon. The Glock 20 has made a complete 180. If you ever want a high cap 10mm with an indestructible finish give a new one a chance.