Public opinion matters to probably at least a few of these. Express how you really feel about what you put through your firearms.
I can't even vote on Armscor making me nervous with split brass or flattened primers since they backed off or fixed their problems.
I think I would be more comfortable answering if the topic was which ones would I feel safe using...
Seeing how I use very little commercially loaded ammo, I full have to trust myself using my own handloaded ammo. Of course this handloading thing has been going on since 1978 for me and since 1990 for the 10mm.
Mike McNett of Double Tap got his start loading to the 10mm enthusiast crowd, followed by Mike Willard of SwampFox Ammo and then Kevin Underwood of Underwood Ammo. They have brought back the full ballistic potential of the cartridge to the customers. While I have read stories of some issues of people using these commercial ammos I still would not feel unsafe using any in my guns. Some people buy a gun and go shooting without fully understanding that not all guns are the same or equal. I think this is why we are here on these forums discussing findings and comparing notes to understand the ins and outs of our favorite cartridge and what it brings to the party!
I have been completely enjoyed your reports of the ammo you have tested in your EAA Match gun. The picture of rounds chambered in the Match vs, the Delta Elite tells a story all its own. This is why I haven't stepped into the Delta Elite 1911.
Remember I bought some brass (as shot from your pistols) and I found it to be in good shape for reloading. I think I only found one or two in the batch that I tossed after inspection, but I am ANAL about what I do when it comes to handloading. I have seen range brass in bad shape and this is why I don't like to pay over half what new brass cost including shipping. I made a trade swap for 1350 pieces of Federal 10mm brass and found 50+ split in the package, but these were FBI as shot in the HK MP5-10's and I expected to find some bad brass in that bunch.
I did purchase (private sale) some SwampFox after his passing as a keep sake and part of that purchase was three boxes of Bitter Root Valley Ammo. Before that (2008) I bought an asortment of DT 9x25Dillon to test my conversion for my S&W1006.
I still need to purchase some Underwood Ammo (10mm and 9x25Dillon) just because I need to fully understand what Kevin is doing so I can duplicate the results for msyself.
Now do I need to continually shoot the hottest ammo all the time? Not really, as some warm target loads are a lot of fun for just plinking. This is where casting alloy bullets, makes for ammo at near the cost of 22's for me! (primer & powder)
Best regards!
I am going to abstain.
Though I do think that some of the manufacturers are beginning to push the envelope too much. If you don't understand why I say this, just think of the ballistics of the original 10mm loads, and consider the fact that the guns we shoot were designed with these original ballistics in mind.
I understand. I view it as all safe in mine but I also don't shoot the upper end 10mm all the time. Realistically I may shoot a mag out of one of the 10's of the good stuff per visit. If I'm doing testing it is however many to get the data needed. To the best of my knowledge Buffalo Bore has never backed off what they initially put out in the 10mm. DoubleTap indeed may but the more I test of their stuff I'm wondering if some of the claims of not meeting spec has more to do with the pistol, etc... not up to giving those results. Some may be on the edge for firearms not up to the task but hopefully the owners get them there. I now seem to know why the term "Lawyers loading the ammo" was coined and possibly why a drop in performance is warranted. I think it's good we have all levels up and down for people to choose I just hope we don't drive the upper end guys to back off if it really isn't needed. Their are different warnings even for Revolvers. The heavy Buffalo Bore is written on certain revolvers... Blackhawk, Redhawk, Dan Wessons, etc... that ammo should be used in.
Good point about the revolvers, which was something I was also thinking about while reading the other thread.
I also remember Mike from Swampfox loading down his 200 grain load specific to the Glock 29 after a certain issue developed. In the back of my mind I have been wondering how or if this will apply to the other manufacturers.
No need to abstain. It helps to know which ones you may think are on the edge. DoubleTap and Buffalo Bore have been around for a good long time and the complaints on DoubleTap at least was suspect backing things down. Underwood is the newcomer and would want to know if people are scared in one way or the other.
You know I wanted to make a point without giving anyone a bad name. But it sounds like you are in contact with certain manufacturer(s), so I will offer my feedback.
Edit: Done.
I don't hold my tongue to any of them and do talk with many (if they will hear me).
PBR Ammo will be the next player giving us some good stuff. I hope I can get them some support for me tugging on them. They will be offering their 165gr FMJ in a 600LB load for $21.40 no set amount needs purchased. I think that will be the best deal out there in a real 10mm loading you can shoot everytime out... everytime. HPR was it then jacked themselves out of the ring.
Snippet:
James Collins
I was using your 10mm 200gr at the range today, purchased at the GR Brown show 10/13 using my new Glock 20 and a EAA Witness.
Massive muzzle flash, airblast, flames and accuracy. The gun was very clean afterward; very impressed. Keep up the good work!
Parabellum Research likes this..
Parabellum Research Hi James, glad to see that you enjoyed the 10mm ammunition. We think the FMJ loading in the Perfect Practice series is a good balance of 10mm power, accuracy, and cleanliness. It is good to hear that you think so too.
At the prodding of Jesse Adkins, we are going to offer our FMJ loads at top-end velocities for those who like to shoot them. So, be on the lookout for even more 10mm fun.
So yea I prod. I hope we can show them we want the gesture to continue through some orders their way.
October 16 at 11:14am
That is a good price.
It's Starline brass too. They are just waiting for their brass order and why I haven't said anything about it. It will be the best bang for the buck out there I think.
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 21 2012 06:46:22 PM MDT
I still need to purchase some Underwood Ammo (10mm and 9x25Dillon) just because I need to fully understand what Kevin is doing so I can duplicate the results for msyself.
Best regards!
Wade, you've been really helpful to me and others on this and other websites. I particularly remember your help with some handloads a few years ago. As a thank you, I'd like to send you a box of Underwood 180's if that's okay with you.
Surely in the litigious society of current times boutique ammunition manufacturers would be loading to the lowest common denominator ? Without adequate warnings about what pressures are in the load and the firearms they are safe to use in it must breach duty of care everytime property and persons are injured ?
I'm confused about it all. I thought we wanted high performance ammo but now it seems we really don't. I need to look at Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap because I don't think they put any warnings out. I sent Kevin a note on the pressures and all. See what he says maybe he will take them backwards.
enidpd804, I appreciate the offer, but I really don't need a whole box, what I want is to take them apart and demystify the actual load...Actually I did read where someone took the 180 grain XTP load apart, it contained 9.6 grains of 800X as measured.
Here is my take on the Underwood ammo, Kevin is in business as an commercial ammo manufacture. His ammo still needs to fit the SAAMI MAP (maximum average pressure) for what ever cartridge/bullet combination he sells, therefore I feel his ammo fits in the pressure parameters. If his ammo did not fit these pressure parameters, then just like any manufacture the liabilities would come back to haunt them.
Intercooler, I do feel Underwood is delivering a product that works at the upper edges of performance vs. pressure, not bad for the velocity junkies, unless something goes wrong! Therefore any slight change, such as bullet set back, or extra powder deviation or guns that are having issues like less than positive lock up, lack of chamber support or fouled bore issues, could produce very different results. These situations could happen with any ammo made even handloaded stuff.
Now Star Line brass, this brass is soft, it is sold as a handloaders brass so it can be re worked back into shape several times before it becomes too brittle. Not a bad thing, unless you are running a barrel that lacks so much support that starts to flow to fill the voids (SMILE) or worst blow out. I hosted some pictures (Newbies to picture hosting & I study all I can about blown casings) for a few people that had blown out cases so they could in fact show what happened in their gun. That one I belive was BVAC when they change from StarLine to Armscor Brass. I have seen several Delta Elite guns exibit the ring of expansion around most of the casing and some were blown out due to a lack of chamber support. What I think what is happening is the swollen case is pushing the slide back to unlock early, increasing unsupported areas.
In closing here I will say, people need to understand their equipment, the gun as a whole, to include form, fit, function, proper maintenance, lubrication, the recoil system, chamber support, type of rifling. They need to inspect spent casings to verify that the gun is working as designed with any ammo used.
I wouldn't choose any.
The only load inexistence that gives me pause is Underwood's 200gr XTP load. But I wouldn't check them in a poll like this as I have no issue with any other load they offer to my knowledge so far.
Quote from: Intercooler on October 22 2012 05:40:44 AM MDT
I'm confused about it all. I thought we wanted high performance ammo but now it seems we really don't. I need to look at Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap because I don't think they put any warnings out. I sent Kevin a note on the pressures and all. See what he says maybe he will take them backwards.
My 2 cents is the shooting public wants 10mm loaded to the original spec full power velocities.
For example, a 200 grain load @ 1200 feet per second. Nothing fancy or extreme, just a good 10mm load.
Here is what I think, Underwood is using IMR800X for his loadings based on what I have seen from other peoples pull downs.
His 800X powder loading is at the 37,500 psi SAAMI pressure and fit the MAP, full spectrum. Also the original IMR data shown was as follows; WARNING this is the old published data!
Nosler 135gr. JHP with 14.5 grains Hi-Skor 800X yielded 1670 fps @ 33,100 psi
Remington 155gr. JHP with 11.6 grains Hi-Skor 800X yielded 1475 fps @ 32,900 psi
Winchester 180gr. JHP with 9.7 grains Hi-Skor 800X yielded 1320 fps @ 34,200 psi
Hornady 200gr. XTP with 8.4 grains Hi-Skor 800X yielded 1190 fps @ 33,900 psi
It has been said that the newer 800X powder doing a little better velocities with slightly less powder.
Underwood's has tapped into this using quality powder metering devises in his operation. (because 800X doesn't meter that well) Many people are put off by 800X for this reason, but in my hand weighed testing I have found it to be very repeatable results.
Now for the twist...800X and LongShot are nearly identical in velocity results by the same charge weights in 10mm from my test but LongShot tends to develop more pressure. ???
Do you have that sheet of the different powders and pressures?
Based on this they are all within spec of SAAMI.
Anyone know Clark in here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-606943.html
He has shot double charges and still has his hands :)
I have read many post from Clark...he is out there...way out there! One he mentioned he blew up a barrel once and welded it back together. :o That was the end of following his work for me!
Here is he older data from IMR
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMRData-1.jpg)
If you are posting to me, no, I don't have a sheet of the different powders and pressures. I would like to see it. Can it be seen in a link? Or is this a google doc or something?
I see Clark said; I have shot 14.2 gr 800X with 200 gr in a Glock 20 10mm Bar Sto barrel repeatedly.
I'm not sure 14.2gr of 800X would fit at a COL length of 1.260. Does anyone here know? If it's possible I would expect it's compressed to the extreme.
Let's argue it is possible. I'ld be VERY curious to know what chrono results show for that load. Clark talks of shooting it over a chrono for bragging rights. Doesn't say if he actually ever did, let alone list any velocity.
What I do know is that some powders simply poop out from any or too much compression, at which point velocities can simply flatline at a certain level, or even drop.
Does anyone here have further knowledge on this with IMR 800-X?
Yes double compression. Bullet tear downs show Kevin's loads near what is listed here.
Never saw Clark's Chrony numbers. Don't really care to either.
I noticed in that post that Clark doesn't have pertanate data to the load he is shooting either...
NO Velocity readings for repeaded shots!
No COAL listed...
NO primer info...
Personaly I consider him the kind of guy if you did something he did it bigger, better, more, faster....there is a term for that!
GRANDIOSE 1: characterized by affectation of grandeur or splendor or by absurd exaggeration.
Grandiose delusions (GD) or delusions of grandeur is principally a subtype of delusional disorder that occurs in patients suffering from a wide range of mental illnesses, including two-thirds of patients in manic state of bipolar disorder, half of those with schizophrenia and a substantial portion of those with substance abuse disorders.
What is, or how does one attain, double compression?
Does that mean max uncompressed for a given bullet at a given COL, times two?
Or what?
Who's pulling down a DoubleTap and Buffalo Bore to see what's inside?
Me for 1 -
http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/disected-hornady-155gr-180gr-win-silvertip-175gr-blazer-200gr-and-dt-135gr/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/disected-hornady-155gr-180gr-win-silvertip-175gr-blazer-200gr-and-dt-135gr/)
RDub01 for 2 -
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/buffalo-bore-180gr-jhc-report/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/buffalo-bore-180gr-jhc-report/)
Redline you should work up an Excel sheet compiling all the weights and powder types by bullet weight with the known. Didn't look like BB was identified but Long Shot for DT which is what I heard.
I somewhat considered something like that, but don't feel I have data for enough different 10mm loads overall to warrant it.
I'm not sure but the Buffalo Bore looks like Power Pistol, I'd need to have a sample to study then have to test to be sure the results match!
You have some stuff to start with. You can get some of it from Shadow for different powders and Max pressures. Use colors to show which are at the extreme end or over.
Shadow what does the chart look like on that DT 135gr with 11.4-11.5gr's of Long Shot for pressure?
Certainly The_Shadow should feel more than welcome to chime in as he already has. That said, I'm not sure what The_Shadow would have for different powders and Max pressures outside of what we know from the different powder manufactuers (which seem to vary a tad oddly to me) which is somewhat limited itself, and whatever QuickLoad might suggest that more commonly than not to me seems way off base. Not to mention we would need to know what magin of error is to be expected.
I think at minimum, for us to be able to take anything meaningful at all from the data, would be for a single independant pressure tester to test all loads in question under the exact same controled circumstances. Two would be better yet, but I expect that's asking waaaaaaaaaaaay too much.
Intercooler the pressure charts I posted were done by another person, I met thru the 10mm circle of forums, he used the Quick Loads program to crunch the data I supplied him. I can't speak to the accuracy of what was the output and 800X was not in the powder list.
Still the only way to be sure is to send ammo to be test by a certified lab using SAAMI regulated and calibrated tools and test barrels.
I been shooting the Armscor(black,yellow and white box)in the compact witness,elite match and g20,no problems with brass after shooting and in the compact it packs a punch.Has punch for plinking knowing you got something.Of course not full load.
Kevin said 37,000. Rock on!
37,000 for all his 10mm loads?
I have limited experience with vendors, buying mainly Double Tap, Buffalo Bore in the past and Underwood recently. Buffalo Bore has their act together when it comes to loading. But, their product became "unsafe" when they placed bullets not intended for self-defense (Montana Gold) into rounds I wanted for self-defense.
Personally, out of a) .40S&W levels, b) Norma levels, or c) 'On the upper edge' levels, I'm looking for b). If I need more, I'll carry my .44 Mag.
If someone offered good quality rounds (e.g. Starline brass, GD or XTP bullets) that send 180gr bullets out at 1300 ft/s and 200gr bullets at 1200 ft/s with consistent mid-level standard deviations, I'd be a happy camper.
The only vendor I'm aware of that uses decent components and provides performance above a .40S&W is Underwood. I've bought nearly a thousand rounds of theirs to add to my stash.
Kevin seems to be still working out kinks in his loading procedures. One video showed his .357 Sig rounds performing far below box label specs. Kevin acknowledged the mistake and apologized. Then, there seems to be occasions where rounds go a bit over the upper edge.
These days, it's hard for a business to start. Big government doesn't help. And Internet can spread the word about small start-up mistakes.
I'll continue to buy from Underwood. He wants to get things right and our feedback is helping him do that.
Quote from: harrygunner on October 25 2012 02:29:21 PM MDT
I'll continue to buy from Underwood. He wants to get things right
I'll second that. I really like the Underwood 9mm 124gr +P and +P+ loads for my carry gun. Good stuff, and very consistent.
All loads.
I wonder which way a range of psi from the 37,000psi heads, and to what extent, with the UW 200XTP between the velocity spread of -1240 to 1300 fps using 800X.
It's too much. Like Harry reiterated, we don't need upper edge level loads to shoot in our stock guns.
My suggestion....since Kevin is already specifying a downloaded 10mm for Delta Elite pistols, why not run some standard Norma level loads and then specify some hot stuff for the guy with the fully supported barrels and heavier recoil springs?
This will give all the 10mil customers what they want.
I don't want that. One can get that through doubletap.
Double Tap doesn't get you there unless you're using a 6" barrel, in a G20 anyway.
I haven't put the billboard out yet for PBR Ammo because Anthony doesn't have his Starline brass yet. After I prodded him to do the 165's for us in full-power he agreed for $21.30 a box. Just no brass yet to order them. If you want something more mild his specs are from a Glock 4.6" all stock:
165gr- 1306 FPS/ 625 LBS
180gr- 1263 FPS/ 637 LBS
200gr- 1200 FPS. It isn't even listed on the page now so don't know where it went. I will ask.
**Also keep in mind the limited testing I did of his ammo it surpassed the sites specs in my 10's**
http://www.pbrammo.com/catalog/ammunition-caliber/10mm
Keep in mind Kevin said you are safe firing any of his ammo out of a supported chamber even in stock condition.... Delta Elite is the one that shouldn't!! He honestly thought about dropping the Delta specific totally at one point. For those owners I guess good thing he didn't.
Quote from: Intercooler on October 25 2012 08:54:40 PM MDT
I don't want that. One can get that through doubletap.
I am not sure what you don't want? Did you misread my post?
I suggested Underwood offer different level loads, ie,, some standard pressure (Norma level) loads for our stock guns, as well as some upper end loads for the guys that have the guns and desire to shoot these loads. Double Tap does not apply here.
The only one in question really is the Delta. I think he is biting his tongue now to keep the Delta specific offering he puts out. All his ammo can be ran in a stock Glock with no issues.
DoubleTap and Buffalo Bore are slightly less available option. I think Kevin wants to keep his ammo at the top since the majority want that. It's what built DoubleTap and also took them down a notch when they went backwards downloading the loads.
PBR Ammo will also be an affordable option in that range if you don't like the other two.
PBR sounds like a good power level for practice ammo.
Though I like the 200 grain load @ 1200 for carry if they were to offer it in an XTP.
Line 64 here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E#gid=0
I have it listed as a Gold Dot so that must of been what he dropped off the site. I only tested the 165's so far. When he lets me know he has stock I am ordering the remaining untested rounds and doing them. The $21.30/box of 50 FMJ rounds will be the best deal out there in full-power. HPR/Scottsdale was at one point $21.99/box but that has long been gone. Armscor dropped off and I tested one box but need to get one more and change the numbers because it is BVAC level. Someone wanting value 10mm now is limited to Thunderbird, BVAC, 3Gun (also known as Freedom Munitions).
Anthony posted this today:
Parabellum Research Jesse,
Starline swears they are boxing it right now, Hal called them today. We'll
have that 200gr loading available in the new "V-Supreme" line, nicknamed
Adkins Ammo around here.
Regards,
Anthony Mowry
Parabellum Research, LLC
P.O. Box 163
Buda, Texas 78610
(512) 666-7279
I think Armscor is getting over 1200 in some cases.Last vid Dave Sneed was getting some 1200+ out of a stock Glock 20.
Do you have a link to the video? Last one I saw of the Armscor it was lower in the 1100's.
It's possible some of the old load is still floating around out there. I know the second box I checked was low. I would rather spend $21.30 on the PBR knowing it's there than $25.00 on the Armscor not knowing what is there. Plus with the PBR you are getting Starline brass.
10mm ammo test chronograph#16 out of a G20 Stock.#'s will obviously be higher with the Match.I been shooting it lately,it's packin a decent punch.My last order was from TargetSportsUSA about 2 months ago.You will get 1200+ easy from Match,G20 still notices power.
This one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlONYodFh2c&feature=plcp
Yea I just watched it and the average was 1149 FPS with a low of 1109. It's back to BVAC!
Also his stock Glock was giving spreads of 50-100+ FPS depending on what was being shot.
His a link to the third test I did where it was weaker my second box. Third box was weak too and results are in here with reference to David's results of it being weak.
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/armscor-x3/
I voted for Doubletap and Grizzly as stuff I would not shoot. That being said I have been thrilled with the Underwood ammo and for plinking, I use Armscor and no problems except a little dirty.
PBR is a fine deal and if I were in the position to buy at the moment, I would most likely get some.
I see Shadow and Intercooler from other 10mm hangouts. Wonder where Taos is?
Although I agree that his 200gr XTP is pretty hot, and I sure would like to know how he meters 800X precisely, I'll shoot anything Kevin Underwood loads. I think I have about every round he makes in 10mm, using them as models for what to not load beyond. He is a credit to the reloading community.
Someone was asking about pressures and loads, so that's my cue to trot out my 10mm spreadsheet. I haven't added to it lately, but you may find some useful info at https://docs.google.com/a/sanfordconsulting.biz/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApfazXeV8cnBdGdKYl8xZFRlakdUOUptaXRWMlFUQ3c#gid=7 (https://docs.google.com/a/sanfordconsulting.biz/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApfazXeV8cnBdGdKYl8xZFRlakdUOUptaXRWMlFUQ3c#gid=7). All disclaimers apply, do not assume these loads are safe, work up in your own gun, guns are dangerous, etc.
I don't know how 800-X gets measured accurately. One thing I do know is if someone wants to make it meter accurately they will modify the equipment to do so. It happens in industry all the time that something with a given purpose gets modified for something else or application. I think their has to be a Top Dog and them not change their core and let people choose to buy and use it or not.
I wouldn't even attempt writing Garrett Cartridge a note to back their .44 Magnum loads down to a level I could shoot from a lesser platform. Their business is built on big heavy bullets going faster than anything else out there. It's about identity I guess 8)