In choosing equipment, are you of the belief that follow-up shots trump power, or prefer powerful rounds that have more energy to do more damage (theoretically) - fewer hits, but more damage?
Thanks,
Pat
The other day my wife and I saw a bumper sticker on a pickup that said "I Shoot a .45 because shooting more then once is unnecessary" Could be a lot truth in that.
Every thing I've seen shows shot placement over caliber ...
I was trained to double tap, till the danger stopped.... so I say the largest caliber you can handle well for an accurate second shot.
( that's why I carry a G20 )
Well, we are all here at the 10mm forum, so clearly we favor powerful cartridges.
That said....
I always practice double taps and Mozambique drills. I am a big fan of the saying anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. And I train myself and others that in defensive shooting there is a balance. If your groups are bigger than a 9" pie tin, slow down. If they are smaller than a 5" paper plate, speed up. In a defensive shoot, you keep shooting until you perceive the threat has stopped or you run out of ammo.
So, since I have effectively answered "Why not both?" to your original query, what is the litmus test of achieving both?
Our old friend the "el presidente". Run it in 10 seconds or less, or trade down in caliber and try again. Stop trading down at 9mm. If you can't run an el presidente in 10 seconds with a 9mm, then start doing three a week range sessions until you break 10 seconds. 9mm ammo is cheap enough that you can afford to improve your skills.
Goes the other way too. Once you get below 8 seconds, step up in power. Keep stepping up until you are running 650 ft-lb plus loads. At which point you are there.
Follow-up shots or powerful cartridge? Why wouldn't someone need to make follow-up shots with a powerful cartridge?
I prefer 9mm with large capacity magazines for most defense situations. For backpacking or camping I prefer 10mm with large capacity magazines.
I practice avoiding a threat.
.
Quote from: my_old_glock on April 06 2016 09:30:52 AM MDT
I practice avoiding a threat.
Also, practice helping the threats avoid you. Eyes up, hands free, make eye contact with people and let them know that YOU know they are there.
Wolves attack the weak, not the ones that show they may fight.
I need to practice the "el presidente"-- a lot. :(
Quote from: Blades on April 06 2016 11:52:53 AM MDT
I need to practice the "el presidente"-- a lot. :(
You and me both. And I need to start getting my older kids out doing it and other drills as well.
Quote from: Blades on April 06 2016 11:52:53 AM MDT
I need to practice the "el presidente"-- a lot. :(
What is that.
.
At set distance...
3 targets with gun loaded with 6 rounds and spare mag with 6 also
face away from targets , hands raised ( I always bend at elbow which is the smart way to be hands up as less movement down )
double tap first, 2nd, 3rd.... reload with mag and double tap back.
Each target should have 4 hits in an 8" circle or Q type FBI coke bottle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4YzV2qZRLY
I love this drill, it great practice, but the slowest part for me is the reload. I have never been very good at that. oddly enough, I can run it faster with a 357 and speed loaders than an auto and mag. Seems weird, but I am a weird guy.
What's the saying, 'I'd rather be missed with a 44,than hit by a 38.'
I think there's a happy medium between power and the number of rounds available, and as stated in a previous post, we wouldn't be on this forum if we didn't believe that the 10mm was the best cartridge for the job. I seem to remember this subject coming up in some LFI classes I took with Masaad Ayoob about 20 years ago. His answer was something like 'Carry
the most powerful gun/cartridge combo that you can accurately and quickly put shots on target with. This will vary from person to person.' It was good advice then, and it still is, at least for me.
Quote from: Bruno747 on April 06 2016 07:06:38 PM MDT
I love this drill, it great practice, but the slowest part for me is the reload. I have never been very good at that. oddly enough, I can run it faster with a 357 and speed loaders than an auto and mag. Seems weird, but I am a weird guy.
First, I think it is fine to "cheat" and run the drill 6-shots, low ready and evaluate, 6 shots. This assumes you have a gun/magazine combo that you are completely confident in, and that holds at least 12 rounds. If you run the drill this way, subtract 3-4 seconds from the "expected" times. So, not over six seconds, step up when you get below four.
But, reloads can and do happen in real world defensive situations, so they should be practiced.
Good news is reload is easy to practice at home while catching up on season 2 of Daredevil!
I am never gonna be as fast as Travis, for a couple of reasons. A big one is I am not Travis Tomasie. Another is that his rig is set up to optimize the speed of the reload, where mine is set up to optimize concealment.
None the less, the reason I post the above video is this: It clearly illustrates Travis practicing NOT at the gun range. To get as good as he is can you imagine how many hours he spend in his home running this drill.
First, set up your rig. For most people I know this means buying a mag pouch since they don't already have one. Figure out how to carry that magazine comfortably and accessibly. Before you start practicing the reloads, carry for a week or two to ensure that you aren't going to need to move the mag pouch. We are going to develop muscle memory, so every minute change down the road will really cause issues.
Start slow. Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. If you practice bad technique 1,000 times, you have developed muscle memory for bad technique.
So, slow, deliberate. Keep the gun at eye level and bring the magazine to it. Smooth and consistent, no matter how slow. Over, and over and over again. Do it exactly right each time. Slow and correct is far, far better than fast and wrong. Once you "get" the basic motions down, start closing each session with 5-10 reloads with your eyes focused elsewhere. Or closed. Focus on keeping the gun up at eye level, and letting the muscle memory do the work. The idea is that the reload is something your body does, like walking or running, while you keep your focus on the larger events around you. You don't think about walking, or chewing. An NBA player doesn't think about dribbling. Their body just does it while they think about other things.
Speed will start to come on it's own. In a couple of hours you will be surprised at how good you get, let alone a couple weeks of every other night for three episodes of your favorite sit-com.
That is my take. Now, like getting to the gym, I just need to remember to use my own training advice :P
One of the things I see about reloading mags with many guys (when i use to work and at range ) is they're afraid to just let the mag drop... It was for fear the mag might get damaged and unusable. Esp on their new shiny safe queens.
Mags are a item that are meant to be replaced if need be
My EDC primary carry is either my 10mm Kimber Eclipse (8+1, plus two 8-rnd reload mags) or my .44mag S&W69 5-shot, with a (very slow) 5-rnd speedloader. I feel equally well protected with either (except when the "bad guy" is a bad bear ... then, I MUCH prefer the .44mag). I don't shoot the Eclipse much faster than I shoot the .44mag (always in SA mode). So obviously I come down in the camp "power trumps quick followups". If I were in the other camp, I'd carry a big, heavy high-cap 9mm.
I carry either a CCO 1911.45 ACP or a Glock 19, prefer the 1911 for two reasons...
It's thinner and carries easier (for me) and the #1 reason... smooth single action trigger.
Follow up shots with 230gr JHP easier than the 9mm, which is fairly smooth as well.
So, I carry both a larger round with a better trigger. Case solved, in the city.
In the back country, it's 200gr Hard Cast in 20SF and I hope I can follow through under stress as I do on the range.
Quote from: tommac919 on April 07 2016 11:39:05 AM MDT
One of the things I see about reloading mags with many guys (when i use to work and at range ) is they're afraid to just let the mag drop... It was for fear the mag might get damaged and unusable. Esp on their new shiny safe queens.
Mags are a item that are meant to be replaced if need be
I get the feeling. Some of my guns have expensive and hard to find mags, and I don't wanna abuse the ones that work in practice.
At the same time, you perform how you practice. I remember in the academy them telling us stories of officers found shot with their hands clutching spent shells since in training they always picked up empties for reman.
Easy to fix. Get some old pillows when you wanna practice mag swaps. You get to let them fall without worry.
Agreed with hard to find mags.... that can't easily be replaced.
But I even see it with Glock mags... and that is true that you perform like you practice.
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 07 2016 02:42:59 PM MDT
Quote from: tommac919 on April 07 2016 11:39:05 AM MDT
One of the things I see about reloading mags with many guys (when i use to work and at range ) is they're afraid to just let the mag drop... It was for fear the mag might get damaged and unusable. Esp on their new shiny safe queens.
Mags are a item that are meant to be replaced if need be
I get the feeling. Some of my guns have expensive and hard to find mags, and I don't wanna abuse the ones that work in practice.
At the same time, you perform how you practice. I remember in the academy them telling us stories of officers found shot with their hands clutching spent shells since in training they always picked up empties for reman.
Easy to fix. Get some old pillows when you wanna practice mag swaps. You get to let them fall without worry.
This was the Newhall (CA) CHP shootout. It's been a premier training media since 1970, although the
reload under fire aspect wasn't really dissected until many years later. The primary
tactical reason for pocketing the brass was noise. It was, incorrectly, believed that brass hitting the ground was a clear indicator to your adversary that several seconds were required to reload, allowing a window of opportunity. Like the M-1 Garand clip ejection sound, it turned out to be a fallacy. It seemed to make sense, but never actually made a difference. Over the years, prior to the acknowledgement that it was a fatal flaw, pocketing the brass evolved into a housekeeping (laziness) issue.
As said by others, train to let the mags/brass hit the ground. If you're concerned with damage, use a carpet remnant or doormat to drop them on. Undamaged mags do you no good if you lose the battle, and your heirs won't care about that. Train to WIN. Everything else is secondary. The ONLY reason to ever pull a mag from a pistol during an exercise (or a firefight) is if it's stuck, or during a combat reload.
I prefer power over faster follow up shots. That being said I carry a single stack 9mm a lot more often then any of my 10mm's. It conceals under a loose shirt. I am very warmblooded so you won't see me wearing a jacket or even a vest all that often unless its actually quite cold.
I have carried a Shield 40 for a couple years now with 6+1 in the gun and a 7 round mag extra in the opposite pocket. I have felt quite comfortable with those 14 rounds of 165 grain hollow points for a long while now. However, given recent events and a scary event in a dark parking garage one night with my family I bought the G20 and have started training with it. Once it's up to par or I'm up to par with it, I will be rocking 46 - 180 grain hollow points in the city.
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10mm gives both in a trained set of hands. no need to choose.
^ this! ;D
Follow up shots vs more powerful cartridges? How about both? And having a good set of running legs might well help!
OP, to answer the question in the subject of your post directly: in a perfect world, yes. Both things, ideally (https://us.glock.com/products/model/g20).
Real world, what I can comfortably carry daily (http://sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p938-edge.aspx), shoot well, and know based on FBI standard testing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwsVe1fxXLE) does the job... well, I'll compromise so that I have something with me always.
That's me, anyway.
I just figured I stay in the middle. Rock Ultra 10mm 8 in the mag 1 in the pipe cocked and locked, 2 extra 8 rd mag of either 125gr DoubleTap SCHP 1600fps or Underwood Ammo 155 gr XTP's at 1500fps. Back up is a FS S&W M&P 9mm 124 +P Gold Dots. 2 Cold Steel drop point Spikes and a tactical pen this is my EDC.
Me, I don't understand why evrybody wants zillion cartridge mags. If I need more than 7-8 shots, I figure I should be running, not shooting!
sometimes running isn't an option. When that happens I don't wanna run outta shots before they run outta attack.
A member over on another forum s few years ago spoke about a black bear hunt that went wrong.
He shot the bear with a 44 mag but it kept coming at him. He emptied the revolver and then found himself clicking on am empty chamber. He says his son stepped in with a rifle and finished the bear off before it could do any damage. I can't verify his story other than a picture he posted with the bear.
The guy gave up on his 44 mag revolver (I believe it was a Smith) and purchased a Glock 20.
FWIW...
I bought my S&W69 4-1/4" .44mag right after I had an eye-to-eye encounter with a mama black bear and her two 2nd-year cubs. My 10mm Kimber Eclipse normally feels like a LOT of gun, but it didn't feel that way then. But with only 5 rounds in the 69, you've got to be able to put them where you want them. I suspect that was the problem in the above story.
It's always a balance. If I'm shooting a small concealment gun (Shield), it's 40SW. I can shoot that as fast as a 9mm in that size and spin the plates on my dueling tree with equivalent speed/accuracy. Perhaps I'm an anomaly but that's my results.
I would never carry a 10mm in a small, light gun. I love the cartridge but I would not be comfortable controlling it. Now if I am in a condition that I can conceal a 1911, I will carry 10mm. I've timed it and I can run it as fast as the smaller 40SW.
For shorts and a tee shirt, it almost has to be my Ruger .380, but in winter I can do my Sig in either .40 cal or 357 SIG.
Quote from: 4949shooter on April 23 2016 08:18:36 AM MDT
A member over on another forum s few years ago spoke about a black bear hunt that went wrong.
He shot the bear with a 44 mag but it kept coming at him. He emptied the revolver and then found himself clicking on am empty chamber. He says his son stepped in with a rifle and finished the bear off before it could do any damage. I can't verify his story other than a picture he posted with the bear.
The guy gave up on his 44 mag revolver (I believe it was a Smith) and purchased a Glock 20.
FWIW...
Not sure if the story is true...but I agree with the idea. I'll take a 15 round mag of 10mm over 6 rounds of .44 anywhere in the lower 49 states. In Alaska, probably the .44.
My take is that you want both but shot placement trumps power. A well placed 9mm will beat a poorly placed 10mm.
My concern with people wanting to carry around the hottest loading they can find is that your recoil and report are going to increase a good bit, and if you haven't practiced that much with said loading then the recoil characteristic can cause follow up shots to be very poor. Even if you have practiced, something with less recoil will be better.
I prefer a blend of power and control and if possible couple that with a premium bullet and you're set. Honestly I don't use my 10mm much for self defense purposes either in carry mode or home defense, at times yes but mostly I leave that to the .40 and 357 SIG (even 380 and 9mm at times as those are my pocket pistols).