Is 10mm on the rise?
So...I've heard talk over the years about the 10mm a dying cartridge, better go with .40 S&W...(which i hate)...blah blah blah.
There have been alot more offerings as far as ammunition big ticket companies getting on the 10mm Train,
One being Sig Sauer and their P220 10mm, and The Glock 40 long slide.
What do you guys things? I see 10mm popularity growing.
I think is growing based on the #10mm pictures on Instagram(a lot of people seem to enjoy the challenge/fun of the 10mm). Yes, it has extra "oomph" and you need to concentrate more when shooting to stay on target, but it can be done.
I see it as a sports car: more power, more cost, but ooooooh so much more fun than shooting 9mm. ;D
I was out shooting last Friday for the first time in far too long. Actually, I was kinda RO'ing and coaching some out of town executives from Brazil.
I was surprised at how much easier my 10mm Glock 20 and Witness Elite were to shoot than a XD 45. I expected the Glock 30 to be a handful compared to a full size gun, but not the XD45 as much.
10mm is on the rise, that is for sure. The collapse of the 40 S&W bubble is causing people to actually think about what caliber they will buy rather than just following the latest craze. And when you start looking at numbers and shooting guns, the 10mm comes out pretty good.
After it was all said and done FBI test showed the 10mm more accurate and 10mm was 97.5 % effective in penetration testing, whereas 45 was 92.5% and the 9mm was 67.5% back in the day. Remember the 40S&W wasn't made yet. Yes, projectile/bullet construction and design performance have improved over the years across all calibers, but there has been more design performance driven towards 40S&W performance criteria than the actual true 10mm performance levels.
If as much R&D would have gone into designs for the 10mm guns and ammo over the same period of years, it would be in a class by itself. Much like is today by to those seeking a gun and ammunition that has the flexibility and broad spectrum of ammunition performance to span everyday plinking, rigors of competition, precision target, hunting and self defense. Ammo companies like Double Tap also played into keeping the true 10mm cartridge alive for those who didn't handload their own ammo. Then that opened the door for others like SwampFox, Underwood and Buffalo Bore to fill in as the resurgence began.
The 10mm cartridge and guns remain popular because of us, those who have come to understand the cartridge, the platforms that we spend our hard earned cash on and the shared stories here on the forums. I have seen rise on facebook's closed groups, where there are actual enthusiast to include some of us, that share their real world experiences good and bad. We are the ones with the actual guns doing actual testing, pushing them to the limits.
Just like here on the forum, people do get guns that experience issues (New & Used) or just have questions, seeking advice, fixes, upgrades or suggestions. Just like we ourselves had to deal with, as we too embarked on our own adventures in the very early days of the 10mm of the mid 1980's and early 1990's. Only difference, back then, we had to figure things out on our own. Or read about it in the skewed gun magazines and no internet like it is now, to get to the knowledge base that is here.
Yes after D&D went down, Colt sort of kept the things going with the 1911 DE's, but for me it was the introduction of the then NEW Smith & Wesson's model 1006, that became a true innovation, to bring out a pistol so robust to complement the power and accuracy the 10mm was capable of.
The gun industry has always been the bottom line and profit margins, and that my friends is where the 10mm seems to be pushed off the production tables. If it were not for some dedicated tried and true enthusiast like us, 10mm would have died off completely!
Long live the 10mm and may the gun companies see that the market for a quality firearms, chambered for this potent cartridge, is still strong. This despite the lack of government and law enforcement contracts...
I still wonder if the Glock 20/29sf had been available when the FBI was testing the 10mm, would they have adopted it. The "SF" made a noticeable difference for me and was the reason I bought a G30sf, and the G29sf.
The 10mm is a nice package. There are a ton of pistols to choose from and ammo selection is now excellent.
The only thing lacking is a new revolver. Maybe Dan Wesson can make a Pistol Pac like the 357.
I first learned about the 10 mm in one of those skewed gun magazines. I forget which one. But it intrigued me very much. So when I found in 1992 a pair of colt double eagle pistols in 10 mm and 45 auto I bought both of them. They both are part of a series of 1000. Just as a sidenote I have never fired the 45.
That 10 mm was my first firearm in 10 mm. I now own four pistols, an AR and a revolver in that caliber. I keep my Dillon reloading press busy loading 10 mm.
I think the 10mm is now well established and growing a bit. At the very least in general forums when someone posts about 10mm, the first response isn't: "You'll blow your hand off ". Tons of ammo and reloading choices. More carbines. They keep coming!
Well my son took my Colt Delta Elite to his CCW class the Sat before Easter. He said that a lot of people there were impressed by the 10mm and the power it has, and the students in the class also thought that the Colt Delta Elite pistol was also very impressive.
So with all that being said he thought that more then a few people might have walked away thinking about the 10mm and the Delta Elite, so what better way is there to promote the 10mm then getting people to have a chance to see one in action and being able to shoot one ;D
There isn't a better way of which I am aware.
One of the challenges though is ammo availability. The 10mm is handicapped in that regard two fold. Local ammo is usually quite expensive. Non-handloaders who are volume shooters tend to buy online, and then there are the guys like me who don't buy anything but powder. Perhaps we all need to make a point to our local retailer each time we spend $$$ online that we would have spent locally if they had stock. Not a jerk message, just a friendly one: "Hey, local ammo seller, I would prefer to keep my money local, but I was unable to find the 10mm load I wanted at your store. I just spend $XXX.XX online to get YYYY ammo. I wanted you to know that I would have spent that with you if you had the product"
Since we don't buy our ammo locally, the local stores tend not to stock it, which tends to deter potential new buyers, unless they are already familiar with buying online.
I will say this. Went shooting with the family yesterday. Even my 8 year old daughter took a turn on the Glock 20.
You know my son Nick kind of knew about the 10mm but wasn't very much interested in it till he shot my Delta Elite when he came home this past Xmas, at that time he could care less about the 10mm he had his Colt XSE .45 and the 9mm Shield that I bought him for Xmas. Well 3 days after Xmas I then showed him my Colt 10mm and he like it ;D then he shot a box of ammo with it and he really liked it. Well then a month later he came back down and I then showed him my new 10mm Kimber Eclipse and then he was really hooked good :P Now he wants a 10mm, he has seen the light!! everything else is small potatoes.
I don't know about the future of the 10mm. But, back when Dornaus & Dixon were developing the Bren Ten, I was sold. The ballistics blew the 9mm, .357 mag, and .45 ACP out of the water. I was sorely disappointed when Dornaus & Dixon went out of business. I got a chance to handle a Bren Ten at a gunshow back in the early 1990's. It had a great feel and natural point. I really wanted one. I had a S&W 1006 10mm FBI model that a local FBI Special Agent arranged for our office to make a group buy on back when the FBI dropped the 10mm. I really didn't like the ergonomics of the S&W pistol and sold it off. I should have kept it for collector value.
I have 2 1911 pistols in 10mm and they're my EDC pistols. I still want a Bren Ten. VLTOR teased us with an offering that they inexplicably dropped. Back to the future of the 10mm. I'm amazed that the round hasn't taken off. As already mentioned, it has far better ballistics than 9, .357, and .45 ACP. And recoil is about that of a .45 ACP. I'm guessing that people are sedentary and stick with what they know, rather than try something new/different and possibly better. Or, they're too lazy to do research and learn for themselves that there are better things out there. That's their loss.
Quote from: inv136 on April 07 2016 08:11:44 PM MDT
[...]
The ballistics [of the 10mm] blew the 9mm, .357 mag, and .45 ACP out of the water.
[...]
For some reason, the current Underwood offerings in .357mag and 10mm have about the same energy (high 700's of ft-lbs for some bullet weights). Given that the cross-sectional area of the 10mm (.40 caliber) is about 25% greater than the .357, and given that the max pressure spec of the 10mm is about 7% greater than the .357mag (37500 vs 35000 psi), the 10mm should theoretically be capable of about 34% greater energy than the .357mag. But for some reason, that's not the case with current Underwood loads (and Underwood strives to produce full-spec loads for each of the chamberings that it loads for).
Quote from: Mike_Fontenot on April 08 2016 08:42:10 AM MDT
Quote from: inv136 on April 07 2016 08:11:44 PM MDT
[...]
The ballistics [of the 10mm] blew the 9mm, .357 mag, and .45 ACP out of the water.
[...]
For some reason, the current Underwood offerings in .357mag and 10mm have about the same energy (high 700's of ft-lbs for some bullet weights). Given that the cross-sectional area of the 10mm (.40 caliber) is about 25% greater than the .357, and given that the max pressure spec of the 10mm is about 7% greater than the .357mag (37500 vs 35000 psi), the 10mm should theoretically be capable of about 34% greater energy than the .357mag. But for some reason, that's not the case with current Underwood loads (and Underwood strives to produce full-spec loads for each of the chamberings that it loads for).
The culprit is relative initial case capacity.
The 10mm Auto has a case capacity of 24.1 grains of water, versus the 357 magnum which has a case capacity of 27.0 grains of water. A 10mm bullet takes up about half that capacity, where a 357 mag bullet only takes up about 1/3. The result is that the initial volume for the 357 is 30% greater than that of 10mm. Since pressure and volume are related, for a given initial pressure and volume (P1V1) and a known end volume (V2) we can calculate the end pressure (P2).
P1V1 = P2V2
P2 = P1V1/V2
After a trip down a 4" barrel, the 357 mag has 5150 psi of residual pressure, where the 10mm only has 3250 PSI of residual pressure. In fact, the 10mm's pressure advantage is done by before the bullet even leaves the case. Travel of only .065" puts them equal, and by the time the bullet has cleared the case mouth the 10mm is 4000 PSI behind.
As in car engines, there is no replacement for displacement.
The 10mm is like the 41 Magnum. Not very popular, but it is popular enough that manufacturers will continue to make guns for that caliber.
.
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 08 2016 09:22:08 AM MDT
[...]
The culprit is relative initial case capacity.
[...]
Thanks. I understand your point. And thanks for that specific data on case-volume comparisons. I would suspect that there might be some "wiggle room" in that effect by trying to use a mix of slow and fast powders, so that some burning continues during the bullet's trip down the barrel. But maybe there are reasons why that isn't achieved ... perhaps because most ammo probably needs to work OK in snubbies. Or maybe it's just hard to get consistency and stability that way.
At the other extreme is the simple calculation you can do by assuming that the pressure stays constant at the max-spec pressure during the whole trip down the barrel. Of course, this would never be even approximately achieved in real life, for multiple reasons. And even if it could be, the extreme blast as the bullet leaves the muzzle would probably upset the bullet trajectory. But that simple assumption is useful to easily determine the upper limit to energy (even though the achieved results are nowhere near that limit). By assuming a constant pressure, the force at all times on the bullet is just that constant pressure times the cross-sectional area of the back of the bullet, and the energy is just that force times the barrel length (or, more accurately, times the bullet travel length in the barrel). The energy is always just the area under the force vs distance-down-the-barrel curve (a rectangular area in the constant pressure case, and a more complicated shape for the (real) variable pressure curve). The constant-pressure calculation (at max spec) is what favors the 10mm vs the .357mag so much.
I just did the math based on ma = F = pa
Using a hypothetical 180 grain load that chronographs 1350 fps at the muzzle, and using standard units I get a calculated muzzle velocity from a 4.6" barrel of 1,382 fps.
Bullet mass = .000888028 slugs
P1 = 37500, P2 = 3251, Pavg = 20,375
Area = 0.126289085 sq inch
Time in Barrel = 0.000493827 seconds
This gives us a theoretical velocity of 1430 fps, or basically 80 fps lost to friction. That seems to check out pretty good actually. Physics works...who knew.
Interesting......... but perhaps ::) maybe you guys have too much time on your hands? ;D
Excellent analysis though.
Pat
No, I don't. That was a very quick and dirty, which is partially why I was surprised it worked out so well.
There are a bunch of factors I ignored, and my average pressure calculation is actually quite frankly wrong. The pressure drops geometrically, but I treated it like a straight average. But, I make up for it my not applying a correction factor for friction, loss of energy via heat, the rotational acceleration due to the rifling. And it appears to balance out at least in this case. If I had a bunch of time I would be working on a spreadsheet that would run this for a variety of different cartridges to see how well it applies there.
Well, personally speaking, I don't think its going away. I agree I feel its actually seeing a uptick not a big one mind you, but indefinably better, couple new makers offering it as well as new guns offered...
BUT If it does, I am stocked with brass and guns to keep me happy. :) :o :o
CW
I believe; Growing. 10mm ammo and firearms options are still on the rise. I think it also continues to rise in popularity for woods carry as an alternative to heavier big bore revolvers that hold a much lower round count. One guy I know bought a brand new 10mm firearm last week after I filled him in on the details of the 10mm Auto. He had never heard of 10mm Auto before I talked to him and he is "a gun guy". Another fella I clued in will have one as soon as he can get the funds together for a purchase.
The biggest issue I see at this time and since the beginning are some of the big ammo manufacturers (Remington, Winchester, Federal, Speer,.....) not getting on board with many mid-range or for that matter full-house 10mm loads. The 175 grain Silvertip load by Winchester is the most popular offering that comes close to full-house but still isn't full power regardless. If they would come around, especially in loads they market as "self-defense" loads, I believe it would be a big boost for 10mm Auto firearms and ammo sales.
One reason way too many gun enthusiasts shy away from 10mm Auto are the mistruths and lies floating around about it. I think if most of that nonsense was cleared up once and for all the 10mm community might double and then some almost overnight.
All in all though I'm happy to see 10mm as popular as it is and seemingly to me still growing in popularity with much more room to grow yet. There are just so many people out there that don't even know of it that would own it if they did.
Quote from: REDLINE on April 11 2016 05:02:49 AM MDT
One reason way too many gun enthusiasts shy away from 10mm Auto are the mistruths and lies floating around about it. I think if most of that nonsense was cleared up once and for all the 10mm community might double and then some almost overnight.
Redline, glad to see you on. Your statement about the mistruths has put many people off on the 10mm guns. That and the continuous brainwashing in every publication that boast 1911 this and 45 that as being the "Holy Grail" all the while shying people away from the 10mm.
One of the reasons our forum exist is to educate people about the 10mm guns as used by real people who actually bought and paid for them (not some loaner gun). The 10mm ammo that we buy, load, shoot from these guns are our real experiences and not something you get from a magazine designed to sell you other products.
The pull-down documentation and preservation section on this forum, has shown what is inside the ammo and what makes it go like it does. While I pride myself for doing these, it is the people here, that shared the ammo for the documentations for study that make it possible for us the learn what exactly is being sold as purchased. It was Intercooler that pursued his quest of what was inside and him pushing me to do the documentations that kick started this snowball rolling! It was not something that was done on any of the other forums and it does set our forum apart having this information.
Many of us here had also been active on the 10mmTalk and GlockTalk forums and a host of other forums, to educate ourselves and others as we continue to share our vast wealth of knowledge all things 10mm. Long 10mm live and grow with the introduction of new firearms chambered for the ballistics, power, and flexibility that this cartridge has to offer!
Nothing scientific, my own observation is that I see more 10mm stuff lately. New Colt 1911 stainless DE, other 1911's, but many more Glocks in 10mm. I think Glock has some credit due in the matter. 10mm brass found at the range used to be rare; not so much now. And usually with a distinctive Glock primer imprint.
Quote from: gmerkt on April 12 2016 12:37:31 AM MDT
Nothing scientific, my own observation is that I see more 10mm stuff lately. New Colt 1911 stainless DE, other 1911's, but many more Glocks in 10mm. I think Glock has some credit due in the matter. 10mm brass found at the range used to be rare; not so much now. And usually with a distinctive Glock primer imprint.
Most of the brass I get now was likely fired from a H&K. The fluted chambers leaves burn marks on the brass...
CW
I think it will maintain its current position for a while, not too sure if I really see popularity growing unless you start to see major police departments switching over to it and the big 3 ammo companies producing viable self defense loads for it. Because it lacks those things I do think the .40 is a better choice for the majority of people, plus when loaded warm, a .40 is only about 100 fps slower than a 10mm of equal barrel length...that's not much difference. I like the 10mm but it's still not that popular and it's only really gained it's popularity since velocity/energy sell guns and many promote the 10mm like it's unbelievably powerful, which isn't true. I mean how many times do you hear people say they expected the 10mm to recoil like a .44 Mag?? Seriously?!!! It goes to show you that many just don't know that they're talking about and can be fairly easily sold just about anything.
Quote from: 45BBH on April 12 2016 09:41:39 AM MDT
[...]
Because it lacks those things I do think the .40 is a better choice for the majority of people, plus when loaded warm, a .40 is only about 100 fps slower than a 10mm of equal barrel length...that's not much difference.
[...]
I carry some 10mm Underwood JHP's that have energy in the high seven hundreds of ft-lbs. I don't think you can find any .40S&W anywhere near that.
One thing I see is the ammo companies trying to make the 40S&W loadings as hot as they can for the most part. Pushing the limits of cartridge and firearms. Powders being used are interesting as well, some being made by other companies than their own. ???
Quote from: 45BBH on April 12 2016 09:41:39 AM MDT
...plus when loaded warm, a .40 is only about 100 fps slower than a 10mm of equal barrel length...
This is true only for light bullets.
By the time you get to 180's that difference in velocity has grown to 200 fps +. And the 10mm keeps going up to 220-230 grain with very usable velocity, where the 40 S&W is just plain out of gas even with 200 grain bullets.
I have the opposite feeling. Due to the larger initial case volume you can download muzzle blast faster than than velocity, which makes for a milder feeling gun. Also, the longer action soaks up more momentum before it has to be managed as recoil and muzzle flip. Finally, most 10mm ammo that general Joe public will buy is "practice" velocity that is mild, where as most 40 S&W ammo is loaded "warm".
I think most 40 S&W owners would find a 10mm far more enjoyable at the performance envelope their ammo performs.
I like the 40, I feel it gets less respect than it deserves. But its no equal to the 10mm.
As stated some makers are indeed pushing the envelope with it, even offering a +P version. ??
I like my 40s with a 135-155 gr bullet and my 10MM at 180+. As stated the powder cap of the 10 wins out as weights increase and the smaller 40 simply don't have the displacement for the heavier slugs. Same story with the 40's offspring the 357SIG it will match the 357mag but ONLY with the lightest slugs, for the same exact reasons.
CW
I think the 10mm is increasing in popularity. especially among hunters. as mentioned above, it is a viable alternative to a heavy magnum revolver. if I wen't to Alaska I still might carry my .44 mag. but I have heard of a few locals up there who pack a 10mm instead of their .44s. anywhere out of big bear country it is plenty of gun for woods carry. I'm going to my camp in the morning and hope to try mine out on some hogs. ;D
when I bought my Witness last Feb., my local gun shop could not find one thru any of his distributors. I looked on line and found only one! after I ordered it, i went back on their sight and sure enough, sold out! I probably bought the last available Witness Steel in the whole country. :o I almost thought i was going to have to get a Glock! :P
I definitely think it is making a comeback, and in a fairly big way, Their seems to be more mainstream manufacturers producing guns in 10mm. You have glock, sig sauer, rock island, EAA,and many more 1911 brands just to name a few, and with glock coming out with the 40 mos, that seals glocks interests into the 10 mm. There are just lots of options to choose from more now than 2 years even when I bought my first 10mm the glock 29. I had a eaa witness, but traded towards a super redhawk, but now I also have a Glock 40, which is pretty tough to beat. I am glad sig came out with the 220, but the price will keep all but diehards away, thats where the glocks come to play. But there is a trend for hunting with 10mm going on and its picking up. I would doubt we see more manufacturers come out with some in the near future,(im looking at you ruger)
The 10mm, like the 357 is great if you reload. You can load it up or down. Once I saw Blazer making Aluminum cased ammo for it then I figured it was pretty popular. Also new pistols keep coming out chambered in it. Now we need new SA and DA revolvers. I keep hoping somebody like Lipsey will convince Ruger to do a 10mm/40S&W convertible SA revolver.
I like that Blazer in a longslide. It has a nice feel. I think the Blazer and Sig are the best commercial shooting loads for the 10mm. The premium stuff is even better.
I bought my Glock 20 twenty years ago and I was told back then that the 10 MM was a "dead" cartridge. I have noticed that the pistol manufacturers are marketing their guns for hunters and the reloading supplies for the round are in high demand. The 10mm is still around no matter how hard the critics try to say that the round is obsolete. The forum has motivated me to get my Dillon running again. Thanks for the input you guys have been putting out. Now I am considering a newer barrel and a spring/guide rod combo. My gen2 barrel is not supported like the newer ones. I want to branch out of my HS6 loads and try something with more oomf. Any suggestions?
I think the 10 is making a come back. This is good and bad. Good because new guns, ammo and accessories are great and exiting to see. Bad because I do not find used guns at cheap prices anymore :(
Quote from: First Manchu on May 15 2016 09:45:48 PM MDT
I bought my Glock 20 twenty years ago and I was told back then that the 10 MM was a "dead" cartridge. I have noticed that the pistol manufacturers are marketing their guns for hunters and the reloading supplies for the round are in high demand. The 10mm is still around no matter how hard the critics try to say that the round is obsolete. The forum has motivated me to get my Dillon running again. Thanks for the input you guys have been putting out. Now I am considering a newer barrel and a spring/guide rod combo. My gen2 barrel is not supported like the newer ones. I want to branch out of my HS6 loads and try something with more oomf. Any suggestions?
I might suggest you get a newer Glock barrel or an aftermarket choice for running hot loads out of your Gen 2.
My 2011 Gen 3 and my Gen 4 have barrels with support about the same as the newer Lone Wolf barrels.
My .02 on this thread...
The 10mm is most definitely gaining in popularity. We have more companies chambering handguns in our favorite round, and more companies offering ammo for it.
I do believe though, that the 10mm will remain a niche round for handgun enthusiasts and outdoorsmen. I have read that in Alaska you can find 10mm ammo on the shelves in hardware stores. Hard to argue with that as far as 10mm popularity goes.
I don't see any major police departments or Federal agencies going to the 10mm though. The FBI already tried that and it didn't work out for them. Too many smaller stature officers are being hired these days. The trend in law enforcement right now is back to 9mm, even though the .40 S&W has been working out for LE in actual street shootings. The smaller stature officers have had trouble shooting and qualifying with the .40. I have even seen officers having trouble qualifying with the 9mm we carry. There are some guys in specialized units who are using 10mm pistols, but this is rare. I keep a Glock 20 loaded with Hornady XTP's in 155 grain in my issued vehicle.
This having been said, the 10mm will continue to gain in popularity to a point, IMHO.
Long live the 10mm!
I might as well throw my two cents into the discussion. The 10mm 'will' be around, into the foreseeable future as long as there is a 'demand' for it. It didn't hurt, that 'big name' gunnies like Ted Nugent, Jeff Quinn, and Razor Dobbs extolled the virtues of the 10mm cartridge, and demonstrated it's efficacy in the field, and on paper. Further popularizing the 'ballistic brainchild' of the legendary, Jeff Cooper. Gun writers, also picked-up and testified about the round's many attributes. The 10mm cartridge always had a 'core constituency' who kept it's popularity alive in the leanest times, and refused to let it fade. By 2013, SIG decided to build a dedicated pistol for the chambering, which also; boosted it's popularity exponentially, I believe. Especially, since SIG owners entered the fray. As others have mentioned, a few more choices from major ammo manufacturers wouldn't hurt either. If a company like Ruger, Freedom Arms, or Dan Wesson would add it to their revolver line-ups, the last of the impediments would finally disappear. The future looks very promising for the 10mm.
HK
Mark Hampton gave it a nice plug in this months Handgunner:
http://americanhandgunner.com/hunting-with-the-10mm-auto/
QuoteThis over-looked cartridge has found a well-deserved spot in my arsenal, and rightfully so. If you haven't already, give the 10mm a chance. It's powerful, easy to shoot in an auto, accurate — and can easily do double-duty as a protection gun. I call that versatile, and something you can't always say about hunting handguns!
I'm new to the 10mm and I love it but I will not put down the 40sw. I carried my Sig 40 cal with Underwood 155 XTPs which is capable of 1300 fps for 582 fpe. Nothing to sneeze at here. :)
I'm another fan who sees 10mm being around for a while. I had a G20 and Dan Wesson back several years ago but they were gone before I really got involved with this round again. I picked a 40 MOS up and love it, but this time around I'll be reloading for it. Heck, I may even look for a smaller gun for CCW in 10mm due to its attributes. Lastly, I would love a revolver in 10mm with no lock, like the old S&W 610.