Since there aren't too many topics yet, I figured I'd throw some reloading data into this forum.
I load 10mm with Hodgdon Longshot powder and usually 180gr Precision Delta bullets. For developing loads (all posted here are my development loads) I use new starline cases and CCI large pistol primers. Hodgdon's data suggests between 8.5 and 9.5gr for the 180gr FMJ, but their data indicates only 34,600 psi for the max load and I wanted to see what i could do to outdo them. For all my tests I used a stock Glock 20sf with the stock 4.6" barrel and stock recoil spring. All rounds were loaded to an OAL of 1.264 inches. Of course, use this data at your own risk. Reloading is dangerous, you'll probably blow yourself up, and all that legal stuff.
Here's my data, complete with chronograph info.
8.5gr Longshot gave 1150 fps average. Recoil was almost non-existant, and cases ejected about 4 feet away.
8.7gr Longshot gave 1160 fps average. Recoil was again almost non-existant, but case ejection was erratic (some launched out 10 feet, and others fell directly at my feet.)
8.9gr Longshot gave 1165 fps average. Recoil was a bit more than the previous two loads, but still nowhere near what a 10mm should give.
9.1gr Longshot gave 1188 fps average. Recoil felt exactly the same as the 8.9gr loads.
9.3gr Longshot gave 1205 fps average. Recoil felt nice and solid, like a warm 40S&W out of a small gun. I haven't shot "full power" 10mm yet, but I would imagine the recoil these gave was a good "medium."
9.5gr Longshot gave 1213 fps average. Recoil was like the 9.3gr load, a nice and solid medium 10mm.
I should warn you, Hodgdon suggests 9.5gr with 180gr bullets as the max they should be loaded. They list the pressure of these 9.5gr loads at 34,600 psi which is almost 3000 psi below the SAAMI specification for 10mm, so I went higher.
These next loads are not suggested, as they are above maximum book levels. They are provided for information only and if you try them, don't blame me if you come back with less fingers than you had before.
9.7gr Longshot gave 1247 fps average. Recoil has started to reach the point where it definitely feels like you are shooting 10mm and not just hot .40S&W. That said, the recoil isn't unmanageable at all.
9.8gr Longshot gave 1260 fps average. I have to note here that the extreme spread of this load was only 6 fps. The others all were much larger (15-40 fps spread between max and min.) The recoil was still not "stiff" but I wouldn't hand it off to a 90lb new shooter either.
9.9gr Longshot gave 1260 fps average again. It almost seems like Longshot has been tapped out at this level as average velocities don't rise much after this, but I haven't gotten any pressure signs even up to the next load at 10.0gr.
10.0gr Longshot gave 1262 fps average. This is as high as I went on the last outing, and I'll go higher after a while since I haven't seen any pressure signs yet. The recoil of these loads definitely got my attention. It seems like this is the recoil often talked about when discussing "full power" 10mm ammo. The sound alone was incredible and probably added to my perception of the recoil.
Almost forgot to add: I have not seen a "bulge" in any of these cases, and every single one of them has been reloaded and seems fine to shoot again.
Well, that's all I have for now. I hope this info is helpful to somebody, somewhere. It was fun for me to test, and I'll be adding more after I get out to test some more.
Happy Reloading!
I make a medium power 10mm load with the same 9.3 gr load as you. I use plated 180 gr bullets from Ranier instead, but they probably shoot basically the same. Its a nice all around fun load to shoot at the range, and it does get attention.
Keep us updated on your continued results.
I've been reloading lead almost exclusively, and have only been loading 200 grain bullets to date. Mostly built up a hunting load out of my G20 with a 6" Lone Wolf barrel. Sold it along with my LW longslide. Recently picked up the LW 5.15 inch barrel to replace, and just drop in my G20.
Haven't chronographed the new barrel with my load of 8.2 grains of Longshot, but achieved 1250 fps with the 6" barrel. I recently also picked up some 180 lead bullets and will work up a load or two with them. Usually one is to maximize power, and the other somewhat reduced, and attempting maximum accuracy.
I'm trying to find the perfect lead bullet to shoot out of my 10, and 40's, so when it comes time to purchase molds, I only need one for each caliber I'm shooting. Have three of my calibers narrowed down, with the 10, I'm still experimenting to see which works for a do it all bullet weight!
Have any of you been measuring case heads? Without access to pressure gear that is about as good as it gets in estimating pressure.
I generally start a test session with some buffalo bore rounds that I know are hot, and measure the heads as a baseline for the day. Then anything that exceed those measurements by more than .001" is definitely a max load.
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 18 2012 08:21:14 AM MDT
Have any of you been measuring case heads? Without access to pressure gear that is about as good as it gets in estimating pressure.
I generally start a test session with some buffalo bore rounds that I know are hot, and measure the heads as a baseline for the day. Then anything that exceed those measurements by more than .001" is definitely a max load.
I have measured some, and the max I get is .433 I think. Don't quote me on that as I don't have any of them with me, but IIRC the biggest expansion I got was smaller than any max load I've ever seen reported on glock talk.
That is still a fair bit of expansion. Of course, the chamber of the gun impacts that a bunch too. Which is why I usually fire some Buffalo Bore to start as kinda a control measurement.
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 18 2012 11:49:50 AM MDT
That is still a fair bit of expansion. Of course, the chamber of the gun impacts that a bunch too. Which is why I usually fire some Buffalo Bore to start as kinda a control measurement.
You're right, I forgot to mention that even my lightest loads gave that same expansion. I'm hoping to order some Underwood or buffalo bore sometime in the near future so I can get a max baseline.
LongShot is a great powder, Mike McNett of Double Tap uses it and Mike Willard Of SwampFox used in his stuff and I would not be at all supprised if Kevin of Underwood Ammo is using the LongShot Powder. It meters well and has a great yield for the amount of powder used especially in 10mm. I've loaded some of the Hornady 200 gr XTP's with it @ 1200+ fps.
It is what I use for the 9x25Dillon project with several bullet weights.
I've also shot plenty of Blue Dot loads over the many years...
I think I have some free time tonight. Gonna break out the new brass and start some longshot loads under 205 grain lead RFN. Hopefully I can get up to the range and try the new chrony with these loads this weekend.
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 18 2012 11:49:50 AM MDT
That is still a fair bit of expansion. Of course, the chamber of the gun impacts that a bunch too. Which is why I usually fire some Buffalo Bore to start as kinda a control measurement.
You are exactly right. Buffalo Bore is a great comparison since they use Starline Brass commonly used by use 10mm hand loaders.
Maximum case expansion from BB loads is a hair under 0.434" in my G20 chamber. Expansion beyond that = Glock smiles (frowns really) that, fortunately, have been extremely rare in my pistol.
Start loads typically expand new Starline brass to 0.431", medium .0432, warm 0.433, and max loads approach 0.434". This has been true for dozens of load workups with different components for my G20.
Quote from: Taterhead on June 19 2012 09:03:16 PM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 18 2012 11:49:50 AM MDT
That is still a fair bit of expansion. Of course, the chamber of the gun impacts that a bunch too. Which is why I usually fire some Buffalo Bore to start as kinda a control measurement.
You are exactly right. Buffalo Bore is a great comparison since they use Starline Brass commonly used by use 10mm hand loaders.
Maximum case expansion from BB loads is a hair under 0.434" in my G20 chamber. Expansion beyond that = Glock smiles (frowns really) that, fortunately, have been extremely rare in my pistol.
Start loads typically expand new Starline brass to 0.431", medium .0432, warm 0.433, and max loads approach 0.434". This has been true for dozens of load workups with different components for my G20.
Hmm, maybe I'm measuring mine wrong. Am I right in saying that to measure the "bulge" you should measure the largest diameter of the wall of the case not including the rim? Because measuring even "mild" 1150 fps loads I had expansion right at .433 inches. I guess every gun is a little different, but I wouldn't think the chamber tolerances would be as big as 1 or 2 thousandths. Measuring the chamber of my particular barrel, I get exactly .4340 inches if that helps.
I generally measure with the lower edge of the caliper about the width of the caliper above the top edge of the case rim, if that makes sense. I want to measure how much the web/brass base expands.
Okay, that sounds like I was doing it the right way. I need to order some Buffalo bore or Underwood ammo so I can get a baseline for brass expansion it sounds like.
Quote from: Turo on June 20 2012 05:07:29 PM MDT
Okay, that sounds like I was doing it the right way. I need to order some Buffalo bore or Underwood ammo so I can get a baseline for brass expansion it sounds like.
OT
I just subbed to your channel. Guns, engineering, and dogs sounds like a good combo.
/OT
I'm in NE PA, and if anyone local wants to run some loads over my chrono, we can arrange a meeting nearby.
Quote from: Breadman03 on June 20 2012 05:55:47 PM MDT
Quote from: Turo on June 20 2012 05:07:29 PM MDT
Okay, that sounds like I was doing it the right way. I need to order some Buffalo bore or Underwood ammo so I can get a baseline for brass expansion it sounds like.
OT
I just subbed to your channel. Guns, engineering, and dogs sounds like a good combo.
/OT
I'm in NE PA, and if anyone local wants to run some loads over my chrono, we can arrange a meeting nearby.
Thanks!
Quote from: Turo on June 17 2012 09:59:37 PM MDTI'll be adding more after I get out to test some more.
Happy Reloading!
Nice work. I look forward to the results of your future batches.
Well, I went out to test some more today and never got past my 155gr tests. Blew the extractor out of the gun and the case blew out. Shooting is over for today and until I can get a new extractor and have an armorer check the gun out I'm not going to be able to post any more.
First, are you OK.
Second any pics of the brass that blew?
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 24 2012 04:07:14 PM MDT
First, are you OK.
Second any pics of the brass that blew?
Yep, and yep. My trigger finger stings a little, and I got some powder burns on my support hand thumb, but I'm no worse for the wear, it just scared the piss out of me for a second. Also, don't tell my mom, but I said a bad word when it happend :D. The mag flew out and I lost the extractor, which made me drop the gun in the dirt.
Luckily, everything still slides, clicks, and sproings like it's supposed to so I think it is most likely okay, but I need it to get looked over just in case.
I just got the broken case out of the chamber, and it looks like I just had a premature unlocking of the breech, because the case is bulged out too far down the case.
The pictures are coming in a minute, I've got to upload them from my phone.
I just need to make sure that everybody knows the load that blew up is NOT the loads mentioned in this thread. It was a completely different bullet weight and powder weight.
Here ya go, I still need to get a picture of the case by itself, I'll add it to this post.
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/Turophiliac/20120624_141051.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/Turophiliac/20120624_141114.jpg)
Here's the casing by itself:
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/Turophiliac/20120624_155519.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/Turophiliac/20120624_155421.jpg)
Quote from: Turo on June 24 2012 03:49:23 PM MDT
Well, I went out to test some more today and never got past my 155gr tests. Blew the extractor out of the gun and the case blew out. Shooting is over for today and until I can get a new extractor and have an armorer check the gun out I'm not going to be able to post any more.
Glad things didn't turn out any worse. I'll look forward to your now further-in-the-future-results. Did you by chance get a velocity reading on that last round?
Quote from: REDLINE on June 24 2012 05:25:11 PM MDT
Quote from: Turo on June 24 2012 03:49:23 PM MDT
Well, I went out to test some more today and never got past my 155gr tests. Blew the extractor out of the gun and the case blew out. Shooting is over for today and until I can get a new extractor and have an armorer check the gun out I'm not going to be able to post any more.
Glad things didn't turn out any worse. I'll look forward to your now further-in-the-future-results. Did you by chance get a velocity reading on that last round?
.
Yep. It was the second round of my 155gr XTP and 11.0gr longshot. Once fired brass. The first shot was 1401 fps, and the busted round gave a velocity of 1115 fps.
Quote from: Turo on June 24 2012 05:31:41 PM MDT
Quote from: REDLINE on June 24 2012 05:25:11 PM MDT
Quote from: Turo on June 24 2012 03:49:23 PM MDT
Well, I went out to test some more today and never got past my 155gr tests. Blew the extractor out of the gun and the case blew out. Shooting is over for today and until I can get a new extractor and have an armorer check the gun out I'm not going to be able to post any more.
Glad things didn't turn out any worse. I'll look forward to your now further-in-the-future-results. Did you by chance get a velocity reading on that last round?
.
Yep. It was the second round of my 155gr XTP and 11.0gr longshot. Once fired brass. The first shot was 1401 fps, and the busted round gave a velocity of 1115 fps.
Wow. I say wow because Mike Willard of Swamp Fox (may he RIP) had 2 different 10mm 155gr XTP loads available. One at 1450fps from a G20 4.6", and another at 1525fps from a G20 with a 4.6" aftermarket barrel (aftermarket barrel only load). On top of that there is reasonable suspicion to at least suspect he was using Longshot powder to achieve those velocities, and he didn't fudge on his quoted velocity specs. Bottomline, even your 1401fps reading doesn't get you there. I wonder if it's just because you started out with once fired brass, whereas Mike Willard only used new brass and refused to even size it before loading it. Anyways, food for thought, and I'm glad your digits are still in tact!
I suspect it is the once fired brass + a little bit of premature unlock. I too only use new brass for max loads. After that it becomes practice brass.
Glad you are OK and hope the gun checks out as you expect.
Quote from: REDLINE on June 25 2012 05:39:09 AM MDT
Wow. I say wow because Mike Willard of Swamp Fox (may he RIP) had 2 different 10mm 155gr XTP loads available. One at 1450fps from a G20 4.6", and another at 1525fps from a G20 with a 4.6" aftermarket barrel (aftermarket barrel only load). On top of that there is reasonable suspicion to at least suspect he was using Longshot powder to achieve those velocities, and he didn't fudge on his quoted velocity specs. Bottomline, even your 1401fps reading doesn't get you there. I wonder if it's just because you started out with once fired brass, whereas Mike Willard only used new brass and refused to even size it before loading it. Anyways, food for thought, and I'm glad your digits are still in tact!
I think you're right, because these loads weren't anywhere near what many others have loaded. Only 11.0 gr longshot when I've seen upwards of 12 gr.
Thanks for the concern, my trigger finger is a little sore today, but otherwise perfectly fine.
Wow :o Turo! That's not suppose to happen! Star Line is marketed as a brass for reloaders but here lately I am having my doubts.
Was this from the G-20 Stock pistol w/barrel?
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 26 2012 03:13:47 PM MDT
Wow :o Turo! That's not suppose to happen! Star Line is marketed as a brass for reloaders but here lately I am having my doubts.
Was this from the G-20 Stock pistol w/barrel?
That's correct. All stock gun.
I was really surprised that the case sheared like it did, it almost made it look like the brass was made in two pieces with the case head just force fit into the case wall. I know it isn't, but the break makes it look that way.
For max loads I would really suggest a heavier recoil spring in the Glock. I would guess you are seeing large extreme spreads in velocity as well, which is caused by the action unlocking prematurely. I think The_Shadow has seen this as well.
A heavier recoil spring will slow the timing and keep the action locked up a little longer.
Turo, when you slide the damaged case back into the barrel and align the case head orientation as it was, does the case head stick above the barrel shroud? I know there is the tearing and stretching, but you are looking to see if the slide pulled the casing back from the chamber too early which would be indicated by an out of battery expansion. With the case body in the chamber, you could also look inside the chamber to see if the casing is backed away from the end of the chamber cut. This would indicate early unlock situations before the pressure dropped.
The G-20's have a slightly different locking lug arrangement that the G-29's besides the longer barrel. But extra power recoil springs could help the in battery lockup dwell time.
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 27 2012 08:03:50 AM MDT
For max loads I would really suggest a heavier recoil spring in the Glock. I would guess you are seeing large extreme spreads in velocity as well, which is caused by the action unlocking prematurely. I think The_Shadow has seen this as well.
A heavier recoil spring will slow the timing and keep the action locked up a little longer.
Yep. I'm looking into the heavier recoil springs as well, any opinions on brands?
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 27 2012 09:23:15 AM MDT
Turo, when you slide the damaged case back into the barrel and align the case head orientation as it was, does the case head stick above the barrel shroud? I know there is the tearing and stretching, but you are looking to see if the slide pulled the casing back from the chamber too early which would be indicated by an out of battery expansion. With the case body in the chamber, you could also look inside the chamber to see if the casing is backed away from the end of the chamber cut. This would indicate early unlock situations before the pressure dropped.
The G-20's have a slightly different locking lug arrangement that the G-29's besides the longer barrel. But extra power recoil springs could help the in battery lockup dwell time.
The casing was partially extracted when it blew, a rough estimate I made when I first field stripped it is about 3/32 of an inch gap where the case was supposed to headspace.
Quote from: Turo on June 27 2012 09:38:32 AM MDT
Yep. I'm looking into the heavier recoil springs as well, any opinions on brands?
I think you got this answer elsewhere. Round = smoother, flat = last longer.
I run round 22-24 lb from Wolff in all my guns, but their isn't a glock among them.
I have read where many like the ISMI recoil rod & spring for the G-20's but some have had success with the Wolff springs. One thing that was mentioned was they thought the round springs like Wolff were bunching up in the G-20 which added drag to the slide that hampered reliable feeding. Not sure if they were the Wolff Gun Springs product or other...they were the round wire though.
LWD has an article on their website if I recall.
Quote from: Turo on June 24 2012 03:49:23 PM MDT
...until I can get a new extractor and have an armorer check the gun out...
How's that working out?
Quote from: REDLINE on June 29 2012 03:55:48 PM MDT
Quote from: Turo on June 24 2012 03:49:23 PM MDT
...until I can get a new extractor and have an armorer check the gun out...
How's that working out?
I stopped by the gunsmith right after work today, he said the gun doesn't look damaged, there's no cracks in anything that he can see, nor any bulges in the barrel. He pretty much echoed what everybody has said here, that the gun unlocked prematurely, even though the load didn't seem too hot. His suggestion was to run some softer loads through the gun to test function and if it passed that test then it should be gtg.
Oh, and the new extractor came in yesterday, so I'm good to go there as well.
Quote from: Turo on June 29 2012 04:55:31 PM MDT
Quote from: REDLINE on June 29 2012 03:55:48 PM MDT
Quote from: Turo on June 24 2012 03:49:23 PM MDT
...until I can get a new extractor and have an armorer check the gun out...
How's that working out?
I stopped by the gunsmith right after work today, he said the gun doesn't look damaged, there's no cracks in anything that he can see, nor any bulges in the barrel. He pretty much echoed what everybody has said here, that the gun unlocked prematurely, even though the load didn't seem too hot. His suggestion was to run some softer loads through the gun to test function and if it passed that test then it should be gtg.
Oh, and the new extractor came in yesterday, so I'm good to go there as well.
Good to hear!
Thanks for posting, Turo. Good info... and info that closely matches that which I've also gotten.
Let me tell you about Longshot's power curve.... with 200gr XTP's, I'll also notice a point which velocity stops going up and actually often goes DOWN a bit.... but when I kept pressing slowly upwards, it got back on track and kept producing higher numbers. Not to say that the loads are within book values... they are not... HOWEVER, I took a 200gr XTP up to 9.4gr LS in new Starline (CCI300 primers) and got 1325 avg from my 6" Fusion. THAT load ain't no slouch. 8) :o I get close to 1375fps from a 180gr XTP with only 9.5gr LS.
Quote from: nickE10mm on July 06 2012 11:24:20 AM MDT
Thanks for posting, Turo. Good info... and info that closely matches that which I've also gotten.
Let me tell you about Longshot's power curve.... with 200gr XTP's, I'll also notice a point which velocity stops going up and actually often goes DOWN a bit.... but when I kept pressing slowly upwards, it got back on track and kept producing higher numbers. Not to say that the loads are within book values... they are not... HOWEVER, I took a 200gr XTP up to 9.4gr LS in new Starline (CCI300 primers) and got 1325 avg from my 6" Fusion. THAT load ain't no slouch. 8) :o I get close to 1375fps from a 180gr XTP with only 9.5gr LS.
I believe I saw that in my testing, but I haven't seen much of the rise yet. At about 10.0 gr, I was starting to see bigger velocities out of my stock length barrel, and I've got 10.1, 10.2, and 10.3 loaded up and ready to test next outing to see what I can get out of those, but I need to grab a higher power recoil spring first after the fiasco with the 155gr loads.
Quote from: Turo on July 06 2012 05:34:21 PM MDT
...I've got 10.1, 10.2, and 10.3 loaded up and ready to test next outing to see what I can get out of those,...
Can't wait to see the results. Though hopefully nothing catastrophic this time! :o
Any loads above 10.0 grains of LongShot would be more than SwampFox used in his 10mm loads with 180 gr. and 200 gr. bullets based on discussions with (Mudrush) Mike Willard when he was active on the GT forum.
Therefore be very careful...
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 08 2012 08:47:23 AM MDT
Any loads above 10.0 grains of LongShot would be more than SwampFox used in his 10mm loads with 180 gr. and 200 gr. bullets based on discussions with (Mudrush) Mike Willard when he was active on the GT forum.
Therefore be very careful...
My google-fu has failed me, do you have a link to any of those threads? I haven't shot the 10gr+ loads yet, I've got a new 24lb recoil spring coming in the mail that I'll be using for new load testing, but I'd like to see any info Mike had on his 180gr offerings.
This was over at Glock talk, http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1357227 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1357227)
July of 2011, you may find his words of interest... :D
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 08 2012 03:14:07 PM MDT
This was over at Glock talk, http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1357227 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1357227)
July of 2011, you may find his words of interest... :D
Very interesting, thank you for sharing.
With the 180gr hornady fmj I am averaging 1370 with 9.5gr of longshout out of a glock 20...
Same bullet with 9gr of longshot average 1295 this is my plinking load...
Waiting on my 1911 to return from the gunsmith to see what velocities I will get with it...