Is a 1911 built to chamber 10mm built stronger than one built for 45 acp i.e. breach face, slide, frame, extractor, etc.?
Thanks, Sam
A 1911 is a 1911 is a 1911.
Other than springs or ramped barrel I don't think so.
The Delta Elite had a heavier slide than the 45 ACP IIRC.
But, overall, no. Colt had an issue with cracked frames in the steel bridge in the rails above the cut out for the slide stop. They corrected the issue by removing that metal completely. The edges of the opening had sharp corners that focus stress, and by just removing the bridge they removed the focus points.
The differences are what they are, 10mm smaller making barrel thicker but the 10mm is working at higher pressures. It was the unsupported area at the end of the chamber that was the main issue as the upper performance ammo. This allowed the brass to swell like a balloon and in some cases blow out. Those the utilized ramped barrels fared better in the 1911 platform.
Yes the frame was modified to relieve the potential of cracking.
So I'm guessing a shorter life span than one chambered in 45 acp?
Yes.
That said, you would have to shoot a bunch to notice. Run a flat bottom firing pin stop and 25# main (hammer) spring and it will be a VERY long time before you wear out a slide, and you won't wear out a frame I don't think.
Quote from: SamC on December 26 2015 04:54:15 PM MST
So I'm guessing a shorter life span than one chambered in 45 acp?
Yes but you have to understand just how long that "life span" is. For 95% of shooters out there, that gun will outlive their grandchildren.
If you look at the other 5% that really shoot a lot, USPSA competitors for example, you get a better idea of just how many rounds that is. IMO the biggest factor in causing wear in a 1911 is slide velocity. Now, no one shoots 10mm in USPSA but the 40 S&W causes slide velocities somewhere in between the 45 acp and the 10mm. My own personal 40, (custom built on a high cap Para frame back in the 90's) has in excess of 60K rounds through it and it's still shoots better than I can. I know several shooters that have over 100K through their 40's and their still using them.
Sqlbullet may be right on the frames as I know one shooter who has an ongoing experiment in frame life since 1996 on a first gen STI frame he calls "Mule". He has 4 complete slide assembles for it in, .22 for indoor practice, 9mm (for Steel Challenge) 40 S&W, (limited division) and 38 Super (open division). When I spoke to him about it back in September, he said, not counting the 22, he was just over a quarter million rounds on Mule.
Personally, I feel if you can afford the ammo to wear one out...you got your money's worth.
Jeff
I can tell you the slide on my Custom RIA 10 is very heavy but being a Commander size it still has some snap to it. I hope I wear it out ........ ;D ;D
I have seen brass from GLOCKS swollen at the base after firing but have never seen a 10 mm piece of brass after
firing a heavy load,1400, swell up like a balloon.
This must be a Glock lovers forum.
The only gun I haven't seen swollen bases from are my Witness guns. My Para is the worst at it. I think the previous owner got a little zealous in throating the barrel though, and it probably would be solved if I fitted a new barrel to the gun.
Quote from: sqlbullet on December 26 2015 05:03:03 PM MST
Run a flat bottom firing pin stop and 25# main (hammer) spring and it will be a VERY long time before you wear out a slide, and you won't wear out a frame I don't think.
I asked RIA what size mainspring was in my Tact II FS 10mm and they said 25#. I was expecting lighter.
23 is standard the mainspring. Certainly not the recoil spring, but the mainspring.
The recoil spring on Colt's Delta Elite is 23 lbs.
Captain, you gotta be careful throwing around that 23 lb number.
That is for the newer DE's with the dual spring set up. On the older guns with a single coil spring, Colt reported the spring rating in number of coils, though it was generally accepted as a 19lb spring.
Reason is I think a 23 lb single coil spring is VERY hard on the frame, because of slide velocity when returning to battery. The dual coil spring stacks very differently and doesn't result in the high slide velocities that can damage the link, link pins, slide stop pin and slide stop pin holes in the frame.
Sqlbullet: I obtained this from Wolff Gunsprings. If memory serves, the original "twin" springs (one within another) were illustrated in the American Handguner back in 1987 and were manufactured from Dupont's Delrin polymer. This original "dual-spring" setup was progressive in nature, reaching it's peak power at the slide's apex. I try to remain as factually accurate as possible.
No offense intended whatsoever.
I just read about the new Colt's Delta Elite still involving dual Delrin springs with a peak resistance of 23 lbs. It looks as if Colt is still building them with the original 1987 plans still in mind. The only difference between the 1987 model and today's Delta Elite is that it doesn't have the offending "bridge" of metal over the slide stop hole. I just read where shooters are still ordering the original "dual Delrin spring" arrangement... (at a premium price, of course)!
PT Barnum was right... there's one born every minute!
I double checked the Wolff Gunsprings site and the Delta Elite dual-spring arrangement is 23 lbs. Double check if you like at www.wolffgunsprings.com and see if I am mistaken. I don't think so, but you can check.
I was worried I would offend you!
They originally had a dual spring set up, then went to a single coil, and I think they are back to the dual set up.
So am I good wi the 25# mainspring in the Rock?
I'll be putting in the flat-bottom firing pin stop at some point.
Quote from: ZanderMan on January 30 2016 03:50:22 PM MST
So am I good wi the 25# mainspring in the Rock?
I'll be putting in the flat-bottom firing pin stop at some point.
It isn't needed. Save your money and put a two pound heavier hammer spring in the pistol. The combination of the two will help prevent the "quick" cyclic rate of the 10mm from battering your pistol's frame. If the recoil spring is too heavy it will beat on the front bearing surfaces of your action
and your barrel bushing (I have seen this happen in person). I wouldn't do it again.
Mainspring is the hammer spring. Two different words for the same thing.
Yes. 25# mainspring (hammer spring) will be a solid and worthwhile upgrade. It is made better with a flat bottom firing pin stop, so add that at your first chance.
I run 18.5 lb recoil springs, but don't see a problem up to about 22 lbs. Over that and you are risking doing as much damage as you are preventing IMHO.
Quote from: sqlbullet on January 30 2016 08:02:18 PM MST
Mainspring is the hammer spring. Two different words for the same thing.
Yes. 25# mainspring (hammer spring) will be a solid and worthwhile upgrade. It is made better with a flat bottom firing pin stop, so add that at your first chance.
I run 18.5 lb recoil springs, but don't see a problem up to about 22 lbs. Over that and you are risking doing as much damage as you are preventing IMHO.
Had my hands on a new Kimber 10mm with this exact combination a week ago. NOT recommended for any sort of defensive weapon. Racking the slide from closed was VERY hard. Not a condition I would recommend for any situation that may require less than optimal conditions. The pistol was "Underwood tested", but function is more than the ammo to be fired. It has to be functional under the least desirable conditions. A "pocket rack" would be impossible, if it were required.
My mistake! I meant recoil spring! a 25 lb. mainspring (hammer spring) would be just fine.
Please accept my apologies.
Thank you.
I practiced belt and pocket rack with my Para using this set up. It took some getting used to, but I got there. Just about technique and learning how to apply the force.
I'll check with RIA on the recoil spring strength.
Thanks, gents!
Max PSI for the 10mm is 37,500. Max Psi for the 9mm+P+ is 38,500. Today's metallurgy is far better than 100 years ago. In 1930 Colt chambered the 1911 in 38 Super Max PSI is 36,500. If the G locks can handle the 10mm the 1911 made today should have no problems.
While I agree the 1911 is plenty strong, the 9mm +p+ comparison is not fair. The force exerted on the gun by a 10mm at 37,500 PSI is bigger than the force of a 38,500 9mm. 15% bigger in fact. And, the hole in the barrel is bigger, but the barrel isn't bigger on the outside. As a result you have more force acting on less mass.
Doesn't change the fact that the 1911 is plenty strong, especially given modern metallurgy.
Quote from: sqlbullet on January 28 2016 09:01:56 AM MST
The only gun I haven't seen swollen bases from are my Witness guns. My Para is the worst at it. I think the previous owner got a little zealous in throating the barrel though, and it probably would be solved if I fitted a new barrel to the gun.
Probably right. I have been shooting full house in my Para 16-40 reamed to 10mm by Fusion & no swollen bases ever. 180 GR w 9.6 Longshot