The 250 rounds I put through the Grand Power. Up the ladder... Geco 115gr FMJ, Sellier&Bellot 115gr FMJ Police, Samson IMI 115gr FMJ NATO, ZQ123gr NATO and Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ. Pretty standard run of the mill offerings all FMJ's. No hollow points this time out to see how they run.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1934521_975786365792729_3244535278296844851_n.jpg?oh=8c9a352b4c197319d2bd41d07ce4e77c&oe=5711E4F2)
First time out with the Grand Power and it's a mixed bag! I Chronographed some ammos I have ran in the other pistols today. I had some stoppages and got some pictures of them:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/12376138_975786555792710_589892686639815726_n.jpg?oh=cdc4a4a26b408632e9b9da35eb907168&oe=570B13FA)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12340_975786569126042_2475111301197835481_n.jpg?oh=bd0997e969f234e8531b8fcc859f467c&oe=5708A7C9)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10009863_975786582459374_9117302147507018866_n.jpg?oh=cff521a5ec3bb945a760bc25c94a2040&oe=57130C7D)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/10552621_975786599126039_7367741216060419921_n.jpg?oh=b42c42f6584cfa2997e4bc7bb5ff3862&oe=570B2548)
Most were with the higher impulse ammo, although I ran into a total stoppage shooting the S&B 115's. I had a FTE and after clearing it, I couldn't get the slide to go back into battery at all! It was about 1/4" from going in and no luck which prompted a pull-down, cleaning and re-oil. I was able to get it going again after do this. I'm hoping the aren't that sensitive to powder, crud...
ZQ1 123gr NATO round that wouldn't extract from the Grand Power chamber. You can see the weird line the barrel puts on in chambering. More on that later when I get the calipers on some of the spent shell casings:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12340_975787189125980_3843317781365813315_n.jpg?oh=229cb801330835b85df99af77d607a95&oe=56D63EC4)
Grand Power accuracy with me painting a straight line. It's very accurate if you do your part and is fun to shoot like a Witness. The grip is really similar:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/v/t1.0-9/10487276_975828149121884_5865359502866124747_n.jpg?oh=3e43183525cd5dbf5f2b25a7ff08c0e8&oe=570FE6E1)
Is the line because the brass is turning in the chamber while still under pressure? The way the action works it seems either the brass would have to turn against the chamber walls, or the case head against the breech face.
I'm going to take some measurements and better pictures of some brass here in a bit. If the barrel rotates, something like you talk of has to occur given the rotating barrel.
Chronograph results:
Geco 115gr FMJ Grand Power K100 4.25" 1160, 1165, 1162, 1170, 1145. Average = 1160.4 FPS/ 344 LBS... XD was 1174 FPS and Limited 1214 FPS
Sellier&Bellot 115gr FMJ Police Grand Power K100 4.25" 1186, 1198, 1195, 1163, 1178. Average = 1184 FPS/ 358 LBS... XD was 1216 FPS and Limited 1234 FPS
Samson IMI 115gr FMJ NATO Grand Power K100 4.25" 1258, 1266, 1244, 1262, 1245. Average = 1255 FPS/ 402 LBS... XD was 1286 FPS and Limited 1303 FPS
ZQ1 123gr FMJ NATO 1179, 1183, 1178, 1182, 1173. Average = 1179 FPS/ 380 LBS... XD was 1209 FPS and Limited 1251 FPS
Speer Lawman 147gr TMJ Grand Power K100 4.25" 974, 988, 974, 981, 964. Average = 976.2 FPS/ 311 LBS... XD was 989 FPS and Limited 1026 FPS
The Grand Power's barrel length falls between the XD and Limited, but gave results lower than both. Just like my hunch in the Grand Power video, it has a gas seal issue similar to a revolver.
Grand Power spent brass from today's testing. Pre and post measurements and the second picture is of three ZQ1 brass from the malfunction pictures (worst case). Measurements are case end and right above extractor groove.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12391361_975896529115046_5059523190059454917_n.jpg?oh=10a39076368281340a092413bd63d01a&oe=57178A71)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/535100_975896542448378_5798226418109981587_n.jpg?oh=d16ecbf845d60faeb1b08d445f4743e3&oe=57213725)
Geco 115gr FMJ Pre .378" .388"
Post .382" .391" +.004"/.003"
Post .382" .391" +.004"/.003"
Sellier&Bellot 115gr FMJ Pre .378" .388"
Post .382" .390" +.004"/.002"
Post .382" .390" +.004"/.002"
Samson 115gr FMJ NATO Pre .378" .388"
Post .383" .393" +.005"/.005"
Post .384" .393" +.006"/+.005"
ZQ1 115gr FMJ NATO Pre .379" .388"
Post .383" .393" +.004"/.005"
Post .384" .393" +.005"/.005"
Three malfunction ZQ1 Pre .379" .388"
Post .385" .393" +.006"/.005"
Post .383" .393" +.004"/.005"
Post .383" .394" +.004"/.006"
I tore the pistol down earlier today for cleaning and inspection. I found two semi-circle pieces of brass in the pistol.
Tonight I decided to look at the magazines and had a rattle in one:
https://www.facebook.com/206257602745613/videos/976652699039429/?theater
I tore it down and found an intact piece inside of it:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/535125_976655765705789_5527147304501872772_n.jpg?oh=570e454ec7174ce3834dd143cfa96f5a&oe=5707044A)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/12391321_976655779039121_2847085400486644733_n.jpg?oh=c4b98d00b89d8d35c30a5d4f3d9b4da5&oe=570FAD41)
Brass thickness
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12347764_976682512369781_4403777950180947769_n.jpg?oh=4f3b06d29937367143f03249f19782f8&oe=57192117)
Okay... It's looking like the brass length is having something to do with the issues.
Brass OAL measurements for 10 cases each
Speer .742", .743", .742", .745", .743", .746", .745", .746", .746", .745" Average = .744.3"
IMI .744", .744", .747", .745", .745", .744", .747", .746", .745", .743" Average = .745"
Geco .742", .747", 741", .743", .743", .746", .742", .742", .741", .743" Average = .743"
S&B .748", .744", .743", .751", .748", .744", .748", .744", .748", .747" Average = 746.5"
ZQ1 .752", .748", .753", .749", .750", .752", .750", .753", .754", .751" Average = 751.2"
So the ZQ1 had most measurements >.750" and those were the main stoppages. Why? I possibly had one issue with the S&B which was second longest, but can't remember exactly. I never had an issue in any of my other pistol barrels, so what gives???
They are still well short of spec. length (.754"). I've seen blow-back actions shear case mouths, but never screw-bolts. The ring pictured doesn't look exactly round, but the dia. is smack-on spec. OD.
It was probably one of the total stoppages I had and the brass ended up a little mangled freeing it. Are you familiar with the design step inside the chamber?
(http://i.imgur.com/w8O0hWj.jpg?1)
Could the increased length cause the casing to bottom out on the forcing area step?
None of the cases you measured are too long, with only one ZQ1 actually meeting the spec. The chamber should accommodate significantly longer, yet.
The step-chamber isn't a new concept (although less than ideal for handloaders). The "forcing area step" is just a ramp, of sorts, and only reduces the chamber dia. to spec in the forward area. I don't see how it could cause the issues you are seeing. I'd suspect a rough or under cut chamber, and/or substandard ammo. Try some Blazer to see just how abusive it can be on cases. The aluminum cases will exaggerate any flaw.
I tried a round of Geco and one of the ZQ1's. When I clipped in under the extractor and rotated the barrel into lock-up it's apparent the ZQ1 is harder to turn it back out of lock-up. I actually had to use something to twist the barrel around and didn't have to do that with the Geco. Does this kind of mean my "slop" isn't enough for somewhat longer brass to headspace? Next set will show the rounds in just the barrel.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/12391324_976744349030264_5074802453580242022_n.jpg?oh=37c14da954a69474a4131e9ef1c65fd0&oe=56D407E6)
ZQ1 and Geco rounds inserted into barrel. Hopefully the pictures show which is seated deeper into the chamber.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/v/t1.0-9/r270/943896_976756262362406_174948161119294286_n.jpg?oh=52ace1bd75631e70805cd3fedb42f4c9&oe=57141BFC)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1237124_976756259029073_6396001896219963927_n.jpg?oh=d3c18689f6f4f068756689e369f0d172&oe=571AD816)
That chambering difference is a LOT. I shouldn't be visually distinguishable. However, you need to measure that ZQ1 case before firing. If it meets minimum spec, your chamber is too short.
I tried a round of Geco and one of the ZQ1's. When I clipped in under the extractor and rotated the barrel into lock-up it's apparent the ZQ1 is harder to turn it back out of lock-up. I actually had to use something to twist the barrel around and didn't have to do that with the Geco. Does this kind of mean my "slop" isn't enough for somewhat longer brass to headspace?
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/12391324_976744349030264_5074802453580242022_n.jpg?oh=37c14da954a69474a4131e9ef1c65fd0&oe=56D407E6)
So what it looks like is I don't have the space needed for even the .750ish ZQ1's to not pinch and get the end of the brass cut off. The Shadow put up the measurements for go/no go by SAAMI:
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/l/t1.0-9/10441329_1252899248057349_4484334537703089634_n.jpg?oh=39226427b46f4a08b21e331964d3b034&oe=570DF36D)
It's .754-.776 and being in the middle would be .765. I don't know if I need all of that, but at least the .754" of specification.
That's what I was saying. With the longest case you measured being .754", case length isn't the problem. .754" is a minimum chamber depth (including breach). The drawings you attached are SAAMI specs, which are dimensional extremes. If a cartridge is "pinched" in the chamber, either the cartridge case is crimped too narrow AND headspace is too short, or the chamber is not cut correctly or there is interference (fouling). Chambering a 9mm should be a dead-stop event, not a wedging affect, and the chamber should be cut as to not allow a funneling of the cartridge below minimum OD. It isn't "slop", it's allowed tolerance, intended to facilitate reliable chambering with cartridge dimension variations and an acceptable level of fouling. If a case mouth is over-crimped, it may be able to wedge past the chamber, but another condition must allow that to happen, such as either a too-long case, or insufficient headspace. These are extremes well beyond any reasonable allowed tolerance. This leaves the chamber cut and/or fouling. While it isn't uncommon to have a chamber that shears some cases, it is rarely ever at any location other than where the bullet base seats in the case. This is normally corrected by chamber polishing or corrective reaming. OR, a specific pistol may only have an appetite for specific ammunition, and the shooter accepts and remains within that limitation (most common). What I would recommend is, send some of the suspect ammo to Shadow for tear-down and measurement. Each of your measurements are well within spec, and under in some examples. BUT, we don't yet know if they were manufactured that way, or if it is a condition of firing. Unfired case dimensions may be very telling.
The Shadow has pulled the ZQ1 down already, twice as a matter of fact. Reply #157:
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-9mm-115gr-speer-gold-dot-jhp/msg28593/#msg28593
Yes, but you are in possession of a cartridge that doesn't chamber correctly. THAT is the cartridge that should be examined. All measurements so far are well within spec, so that leaves the chamber suspect. A simple test you can do is, "paint" the entire cartridge with a black Sharpie, then force it into battery. Remove it and identify the areas of interference. I would even go so far as removing the firing pin and extractor to minimize collateral interference. This may be an issue with throat or freebore interference, which can greatly affect pressures as well as function. It's important to identify that, if it exists.
The other one from the exact box I shot... newer one reply #187:
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-9mm-115gr-speer-gold-dot-jhp/msg36264/#msg36264
I got lucky and my Gunsmith responded. He will be meeting me to check it out at 12:00 today. I will report back when I get the results.
Both rounds measured are within an acceptable margin of error. However, those rounds were not chambered in that pistol. Your only options are to explore areas of possible inconsistency, or return your new pistol. If the ammo you have doesn't fire correctly in your pistol and the ammo is not suspect, then the pistol is broken and should be returned. This isn't a 20 year old used pistol with a new problem. This is a new pistol that has never not had this problem. That's a manufacturer's defect. Either return it for repair, or accommodate the issue by correcting the defect or avoid ammo that has the issue (and take the chance that other ammo won't experience this when you need it to work NOW). There are no other options. I absolutely HATE returning defective products, of any kind, but I've done it. It's a PITA, but if I pay for a product, I expect to get what I paid for and nothing less.
Thanks for your help!
I hate to ask....But IC, in your state if you return a defective pistol and the maker elects to replace rather than repair, does your replacement gun end up in jail like a new purchase?
I can't recall exactly what happened when I returned the Ruger Redhawk. I'm thinking my FFL just issued it with a new serial number and I didn't have to go through the full process again.
Here is what we found after just getting back from the Gunsmith.
So here is what we found. The pistol is fine and I'm happy about that! It doesn't have a headspacing issue and the rounds had enough slop plus fit the gauge. Nathan said the circular shaving is Copper from the ZQ1 bullet. He actually wanted to pull one down and have a look while I was there and suspects it could be crimp related. According to him it's just one of those rounds this pistol isn't liking and advised me to not run it anymore. I have read in the past about some pistols being finicky about ammos and just never owned one. Nathan thought I was bringing in reloads and I don't reload, so it shocked him to see this with factory ammo. My next time out I will run 150 rounds of Fiocchi standard 115gr FMJ and see what that gives.
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlp1/v/t1.0-9/1472052_977039302334102_6662434066145068979_n.jpg?oh=dd3a81404190a9be299585d2a3535063&oe=57107467)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/v/t1.0-9/10400706_977039389000760_479902296299338403_n.jpg?oh=0ca404b61b7e3235bf1748cff7919134&oe=571BAF4A)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1927709_977039359000763_8173455172014756902_n.jpg?oh=f28e361b08df031ebaf0e47a75a6a3da&oe=56D64582)
At least it's good to know why, somewhat. I have a friend who uses the same ammo by the case. His Colt eats it like candy, and it's also a screw-bolt (of a different type). Maybe save what's left and try it again after a few thousand rounds through the pistol. Maybe give the throat a polish to ease the growing pains.
People who know the pistol say they are tightly machined and I agree. I asked a bunch of YouTube video makers running them about issues and most say they have been just plugging away without issue.
I'm going again this weekend and plan on shooting a ton of just standard 115gr FMJ, but will take one more challenge round to run at the end based on how the FMJ's go.
Second visit and she locked up again. Tight! I had to pull it down and clean it to get it right.
https://www.facebook.com/206257602745613/videos/980734855297880/?theater