Some of these loads are over the recommended 35K psi limit for this round and are right around 40Kpsi according to Quickload. If you plan on duplicating these loads work your way up and don't hold me responsible if you or your gun blow up.
I used brand new S&B brass and primers which I pulled from loaded ammo (Clark says S&B brass is the strongest for this round). The cases looked great after firing with no smeared primers or any other signs of excessive pressure, unfortunately I forgot to measure for case head expansion.
All rounds were fired from a new production Zastava M57A - $250 at Buds
S&B 85 grain FMJ 1.335" COL
15.2 grains of W296, Quickload estimated pressure is 40K psi and estimated velocity is 1630 fps, This load averaged 1558 fps over the chrony - I expected more from this one, W296 is obviously too slow for this cartridge I don't care what Hornady's manual says.
90 grain XTP 1.320" COL
8.5 grains Power Pistol, Quickload estimated pressure 40K psi and 1580 fps, averaged 1629 fps over chronograph - This was much faster than expected and I will be loading 8 grains from now on. Power pistol is the Tokarev powder from now on for me.
110 grain Armscore fmj 1.370" COL
12 grains W296, Quickload estimated pressure is 28K psi and 1265 fps, this load averaged 1241 fps over the chrony - This was a good mild plinking load with good accuracy.
110 grain Remington SP 1.370" COL
12.5 grains W296, Quickload estimated pressure is 32K psi and 1339 fps, Actual average velocity was 1302 fps, I doubt this bullet meant for the 30 carbine would expand at this velocity.
None of these loads have what I would call excessive recoil. I would compare the recoil to a +p 9mm. I'm quickly becoming a fan of this cartridge it's a little hotrod.
I'm going to test the 85 and 100 grain 32 caliber XTP's swaged down to .3085" hopefully this Wednesday. I'm trying for 1600 fps with the 85 grain XTP and 1550 fps with the 100 grain XTP. I don't want to driver them too fast because Hornady doesn't recommend more than 1550 fps with these bullets. Brassfetcher tested these bullets at these velocities and got excellent results with the 100 grain XTP. 13.9" of penetration and the bullet expended to .510" not bad. I'm going through a Tokarev phase right now if you haven't noticed. The little round intrigues me for some reason.
I love this round as well.
Just an aside, what dies do you have?
Thanks for the report, many say the cheap surplus of those have dried up. Handloading would be a great way to bring it on!
Congrats! 8)
I wish there were more firearms in this caliber. I'd love to see a modern semi auto handgun, even a single stack.
I understand there was a small outfit making 7.62x25 AR uppers, and that played a big part in the surplus being bought up.
Wish I had one! :))
Quote from: 10mmGarand on December 06 2015 07:50:27 AM MST
I wish there were more firearms in this caliber. I'd love to see a modern semi auto handgun, even a single stack.
I understand there was a small outfit making 7.62x25 AR uppers, and that played a big part in the surplus being bought up.
Wish I had one! :))
7.62Tok DI Upper $700 - http://www.rmwxtreme.com/#top
I'm using Lee dies
Quote from: wadcutter on December 06 2015 11:27:18 AM MST
I'm using Lee dies
Nice. I have Lee, RCBS, Hornady in lots of sizes with no issues. Thanks.
Quote from: Pablo on December 06 2015 07:58:29 AM MST
Quote from: 10mmGarand on December 06 2015 07:50:27 AM MST
I wish there were more firearms in this caliber. I'd love to see a modern semi auto handgun, even a single stack.
I understand there was a small outfit making 7.62x25 AR uppers, and that played a big part in the surplus being bought up.
Wish I had one! :))
7.62Tok DI Upper $700 - http://www.rmwxtreme.com/#top
Thank you! I thought these were discontinued a while back.
I want one. But I have only two practical reasons why!
I just finished testing the 100 grain 32 caliber XTP's that I ran through a .308" lee bullet sizer to bring them down to .3085". I worked up to a max load of 8 grains of Power pistol with a cartridge overall length of 1.320" and CCI 500 standard small pistol primers in NEW Starline brass. Please be careful and work your way up if you plan on duplicating this load. I worked my way up in .2 grain increments and recommend you do the same. I'd feel terrible if someone hurt themselves.
Shots
1 )1527
2) 1501
3) 1523
4) 1537
5) 1525
6) 1516
7) 1511
Average velocity - 1520 fps
Extreme Spread - 36 fps
Standard deviation - ? IDK
According to Quickload 8 grains of Power pistol should propel this bullet to 1502 fps which is very close to the results I obtained and 41,282 psi Which is quite a bit higher than the CIP 3200 bar (36,250 psi) pressure limit for the 7.62x25 Tokarev. Quickload has 34,809 psi as max pressure so again please please be careful and work your way up if you plan on duplicating these loads. I've noticed Quickload slightly underestimates velocity with Power Pistol and Overestimates velocity with H110\W296 in this round so actual pressure could and most likely is slightly higher than 41,282 psi. I'm also using a new production Zastava M57A which might be stronger than your average 70 year old TT33, but I'm not sure about that. Hornady rates the 100 grain xtp bullet for 1550 fps max and states that even 1500 fps could be too fast for this bullet at close range in their 327 Federal Magnum load data section. Even though Brass fetcher had good results in his gel test at 1550 fps I think 7.6 -7.7 grains of power pistol at around 1450 fps is optimal for this bullet and should bring the pressure down very close to the 3200 bar limit.
Here's a look at what the primers look like after being shot. They don't look too bad but there was some cratering.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/28hdcom.jpg)
And here's a look at brass fetchers gel test of this bullet at 1550 fps. He got 13.9" of penetration and the Bullet expanded to .510" not bad.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/172rso.jpg)
I think this would make a decent round for Coyotes and other small predators and varmints. The 7.5 grain load shoots like a laser, we had a blast blowing up milk jugs out to 50 yards
I also tested the 85 grain 32 Caliber XTP and got some amazing velocity. Much more than the bullet was designed for so I wont post the results but they were interesting to say the least.
That is excellent. Thank you wadcutter!
Wow......a 16" barrel AR, it would be interesting. Or even an SBR.
How about a "Civilian" version of the Ppsh. You can get one from a company if Vernonia, OR. that is converting them to semi-auto for civilian sales.
Captain O
Picking a nit I know, but they would be building them from parts. The FFL rule that once a machine gun always a machine gun prevents converting full-auto back to semi-auto. Companies will buy demilled parts kits that have the receiver cut into three section, and put the parts on new receivers.
PPSH-1 is a beast, even modern day American soldiers are impressed with it's performance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq63GlFiCKE
I really like the cartridge. Accurate, powerful and devastating on target. No wonder the West German border guards and those escaping from the East German Communists feared the PPSh when running to freedom from behind what Churchill accurately called the "Iron Curtain".
Think about it.
I retested the 85 grain Hornady XTP and got pretty much the same results. 1720 fps which is about 200 fps beyond what this bullet is designed for, but the velocity is impressive none the less. That comes out to 558 ft\lbs of muzzle energy. You'd be hard pressed to match that with a 327 Fed Mag.
it is both a "manstopper" and a hunter. It is truly amazing what a light bullet can do when driven to these velocities!
Captain O
Could you imagine how this cartridge would perform in a M1 Carbine format? I have always wondered how it would work with the piece coupled with a 20 inch barrel.
A 30 round magazine would put the hurts on small to medium sized game.
Coyotes beware! ;D
The round isn't too bad from a long barrel. No more than a light .30 Carbine, though. OK for small to medium varmint, or targets. Adapters for the Mosin-Nagant are available (Midway, Shooter's Guide), and fun.
Quote from: sqlbullet on December 17 2015 08:08:42 AM MST
Picking a nit I know, but they would be building them from parts. The FFL rule that once a machine gun always a machine gun prevents converting full-auto back to semi-auto. Companies will buy demilled parts kits that have the receiver cut into three section, and put the parts on new receivers.
I have one of their Finnish Suomi subguns that's been converted to semiautomatic. Heavy as all get out, but accurate. I wanted one of their PPSh kits but couldn't buy one at the time. Perhaps someday I still will.
Incidentally, how well will the loads you documented shoot in the Zasava M57? I have been longing to shoot some of the 86 grain hollowpoints loaded to military levels. Are there any companies loading the cartridge this way? Objective: varminting.
Reeds ammo loads their 7.62x25 as hot or hotter than I have using the same bullets and others. They're the Underwood of the 7.62x25 world.
http://shop.reedsammo.com/762x25_c14.htm
My M57 is a new production Zastava it shot low and left from the factory. Low I can live with but left bothered me so I took a brass punch and drifted the rear site just a tad and now it shoots where I want it to. I could of of filed down the front site and still may, but it only shoots 2-3 inches low at 10 yards so I left it alone for now.
Sounds good to me! I may have to look to reeds for hunting and SD loads for the 7.62 X 25 cartridge. Browning designed a great handgun, Tokarev adapted the design to accomodate a marvelous cartridge. The .30 Tokarev cartridge has a couple of competitors (.30 Carbine .327 Federal Magnum). Does the .327 Fed Mag outclass it?
327 Federal Magnum vs 7.62x25 is like comparing the 10mm to the 357 Magnum. They're so close it comes down to platform more than anything. The 327 has the edge in case capacity (19 grain to 16.8 grains h2O) and has a maximum pressure of 45,000 psi compared to the Tokarev's 36,000 psi. So the 327 magnum will probably beat the Tokarev if you stay withing recommended pressure limits. On the other hand the 327 is rimmed revolver cartridge and it's going to lose 50 - 150 fps due to the cylinder gap so it should be pretty close. Then again I've read that 327 brass has a tendecy to split at those pressures while the Tokarev probaly won't. They're both excellent cartridges imho.
I'm sure that properly supported cases would likely prevent case splitting. Support is critical at these pressures. I deeply appreciate my M57 and anticipate using it (and some Reed's Ammunition, if/when I can afford it) for varminting and personal defense. John Moses Browning and Feodor Tokarev did an excellent job with the "basic" M1903 platform. Another piece of JMB's genius revisited.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
I was looking for .30 and .32 caliber bullets and came across these Lehigh Defense 32 caliber 50 grain Cavitor bullets.
http://www.lehighdefense.com/pages/xtreme-cavitator
I bought a box of 50 and I'm gonna load them up for my Tokarev. I should be able to get 2000 fps easily. I wonder how far they would penetrate in ballistic gel at that speed. At 850 fps they go through 13 inches of ballistic gel according to lehigh, but with the much higher velocity from the Tokarev penetration should be less right?
Quote from: wadcutter on March 26 2016 02:31:57 PM MDT
I was looking for .30 and .32 caliber bullets and came across these Lehigh Defense 32 caliber 50 grain Cavitor bullets.
http://www.lehighdefense.com/pages/xtreme-cavitator (http://www.lehighdefense.com/pages/xtreme-cavitator)
I bought a box of 50 and I'm gonna load them up for my Tokarev. I should be able to get 2000 fps easily. I wonder how far they would penetrate in ballistic gel at that speed. At 850 fps they go through 13 inches of ballistic gel according to lehigh, but with the much higher velocity from the Tokarev penetration should be less right?
I wouldn't think so. That effect is usually limited to HP or fragmenting bullets. This bullet is a solid, non-expanding, non-deforming design. I suspect, at 2000 FPS, you won't have enough gel to actually know how far it will penetrate. Likely 30"+. If the "cavitation" design is effective at that velocity, it could easily be double that.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/29bf2gn.jpg)
Is that the weirdest looking pistol bullet you've ever seen? I'm gonna run these over the chronograph tomorrow and then I'm gonna move on to a different cartridge. My Tokarev fetish is finally subsiding. I've tried just about every bullet and powder combination and I just love the round. I wish there were more guns chambered for it. I'd like to do the 9x25 Dillon thing next. It's a Tokarev on steroids, but the dies are so expensive.
9x25D dies are expensive, but you don't need them, necessarily. I've loaded thousands of 9x25, 100% from brass I sized from 10mm Auto. If you already load 10mm, you have 1/2 of what you need to load 9x25. Full length size the brass, as you would with 10mm. Then, use a .357 Sig die to either form or resize 9x25 brass, similar to what you'd do for any bottleneck rifle case (progressive, with lube). Setting the shoulder depth is critical, but not complicated if you are an accomplished handloader. I use a lapped 7/8" washer sized exactly at the shoulder depth difference between .357 Sig and 9x25D, so it's only a matter of using the washer for 9x25 when switching from .357S. The process is the same as with .357S, being careful to NOT crimp while seating (the shoulder will collapse). Bullets with a cannelure work best, if you can find them. 115 gr. 9mm XTP's have a cannelure. I'm in the process of trying a bushing with the .357S Lee FCD for 9x25 crimping, which should vastly improve the end product.
I bit the bullet and bought the 9x25 dies. And I have 7.62x25 and 357Sig dies. I'm nuts!
I have a Glock29, I wonder if LW would sell me a no ported 4.6" barrell?. I don't see one listed on there site. They make a ported 4.6" barrel and a non ported 3.78" barrel and I'd buy those in a second if I was planning on entering an extreme muzzle blast contest but I'm not. I like to think of the 9x25 Dillon as a semi auto 357 Magnum and I know that cartridge really comes alive with barrels of 4" or longer. I think a 357 Sig with a 3.78" barrel won give up much to a 9x25 Dillon with a 3.78" barrel .
Quote from: wadcutter on April 02 2016 07:44:21 PM MDT
I have a Glock29, I wonder if LW would sell me a no ported 4.6" barrell?. I don't see one listed on there site. They make a ported 4.6" barrel and a non ported 3.78" barrel and I'd buy those in a second if I was planning on entering an extreme muzzle blast contest but I'm not. I like to think of the 9x25 Dillon as a semi auto 357 Magnum and I know that cartridge really comes alive with barrels of 4" or longer. I think a 357 Sig with a 3.78" barrel won give up much to a 9x25 Dillon with a 3.78" barrel .
Contact them. I've had several custom orders with them and they were very accommodating. Omitting ports shouldn't be a problem.
Quote from: wadcutter on April 02 2016 07:44:21 PM MDT
I have a Glock29, I wonder if LW would sell me a no ported 4.6" barrell?. I don't see one listed on there site. They make a ported 4.6" barrel and a non ported 3.78" barrel and I'd buy those in a second if I was planning on entering an extreme muzzle blast contest but I'm not. I like to think of the 9x25 Dillon as a semi auto 357 Magnum and I know that cartridge really comes alive with barrels of 4" or longer. I think a 357 Sig with a 3.78" barrel won give up much to a 9x25 Dillon with a 3.78" barrel .
:confused: This is not ported, or am I missing it?
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=954&TERM=9x25
As for the 9x25 dies, I bought them last year. Even though I didn't start reloading right away, I figure I better get set up before Dillon quits making them. There is a guy on THR, Fred, who sent me some great info. Also there is another thread on THR on fully converting 10mm brass to 9x25.
Quote from: Pablo on April 03 2016 09:21:40 AM MDT
Quote from: wadcutter on April 02 2016 07:44:21 PM MDT
I have a Glock29, I wonder if LW would sell me a no ported 4.6" barrell?. I don't see one listed on there site. They make a ported 4.6" barrel and a non ported 3.78" barrel and I'd buy those in a second if I was planning on entering an extreme muzzle blast contest but I'm not. I like to think of the 9x25 Dillon as a semi auto 357 Magnum and I know that cartridge really comes alive with barrels of 4" or longer. I think a 357 Sig with a 3.78" barrel won give up much to a 9x25 Dillon with a 3.78" barrel .
:confused: This is not ported, or am I missing it?
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=954&TERM=9x25 (http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=954&TERM=9x25)
As for the 9x25 dies, I bought them last year. Even though I didn't start reloading right away, I figure I better get set up before Dillon quits making them. There is a guy on THR, Fred, who sent me some great info. Also there is another thread on THR on fully converting 10mm brass to 9x25.
G20 and G29 barrels aren't interchangeable.
Quote from: DM1906 on April 03 2016 09:26:08 AM MDT
G20 and G29 barrels aren't interchangeable.
OOOH! Sorry. I don't have a G29 obviously. I do think I remember reading that somewhere in the past. Thanks.
But I like your idea!
That said. Pocket carrier G29 with a stock length 9x25 barrel, full load Longshot powder. Crikey! Flamethrower!!
Quote from: Pablo on April 03 2016 10:21:02 AM MDT
That said. Pocket carrier G29 with a stock length 9x25 barrel, full load Longshot powder. Crikey! Flamethrower!!
16 gr. BD. Now THAT'S a flamethrower, even with a 6" barrel. Makes Longshot look tame.
That is a weird looking projectile, but very interesting to say the least.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/29bf2gn.jpg)
Quote from: Pablo on April 03 2016 09:21:40 AM MDT
Quote from: wadcutter on April 02 2016 07:44:21 PM MDT
I have a Glock29, I wonder if LW would sell me a no ported 4.6" barrell?. I don't see one listed on there site. They make a ported 4.6" barrel and a non ported 3.78" barrel and I'd buy those in a second if I was planning on entering an extreme muzzle blast contest but I'm not. I like to think of the 9x25 Dillon as a semi auto 357 Magnum and I know that cartridge really comes alive with barrels of 4" or longer. I think a 357 Sig with a 3.78" barrel won give up much to a 9x25 Dillon with a 3.78" barrel .
:confused: This is not ported, or am I missing it?
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=954&TERM=9x25
As for the 9x25 dies, I bought them last year. Even though I didn't start reloading right away, I figure I better get set up before Dillon quits making them. There is a guy on THR, Fred, who sent me some great info. Also there is another thread on THR on fully converting 10mm brass to 9x25.
Was that Fred Ross? He also shared a packet of some very cool 9x25 Dillon info with me as well. He has been on several forums to include GT. Very nice fellow!
I have the G-29 factory length barrel and it seems 800X was the one to bring the best velocity from the short barrels
Longshot and Blue Dot worked better with the longer barrels. I have some loads to be tested using BE-86, CFE and Auto Comp to see how the perform.
Yes Fred Ross. He knows the roots of 9x25.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=770097&highlight=9x25
Man, I'm slipping. The conversion thread is on the 1911 forum!
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=507834
I still haven't gotten around to shooting these over a chronagraph. So many terrible thing shave happened since 2016. I've lost so much of my family since then. I haven't shot a gun in almost 5 years
wow! old thread but I'm glad you revived it.
I too went through a 7.62x25 phase. a very intriguing cartridge indeed. when they were around $100. , I bought a bunch of CZ 52 & Romanian Torkevs with my C&R FFL. my dream was (and still is) to have something like a CZ 75 and a small light carbine (Marlin Camp 9) chambered in it.
I'd have to dig through my data for the exact loads but with the 85 gr. JHP, I was getting around 1800 fps with AA#9 out of my CZ 52 pistols. I lost interest it the little hot shot only because the old surplus pistols were such crappy shooters and I couldn't shoot them accurate enough to hunt with. I did once shoot (and hit) a water moccasin with one once. it was spectacular! the snake was coiled on a cypress stump. I aimed for the head but hit him in the coils. it blew the snake into 4 pieces and a pink mist!
even the Mil. surplus ammo will almost penentrate soft armor. I read where when the Russians were developing an armor piercing pistol round, they almost used a modified 7.62x25 but instead went with a new cartridge.