Great forum and site. I wish I had happened upon threads like the ones here before using their product. Yet another negative and dangerous experience with Buffalo Bore's product and their customer "service." Scary "boutique" stuff, yet it is carried at major retailers like Cabela's. Creates a danger to many an unsuspecting customer buying "just another box" of 10mm that looks safe and more powerful if not expensive.
http://www.badammo.com
The BB website claims are simply not consistent with the real experiences I've read about in threads across the web. Scary when you get a live experience to also highlight the actual risk.
Interesting first post. I see nothing in the link that was provided to tell me what I should be looking for to save myself and my weapons.
Sorry for a first post that points to an outside link. However, I found this forum due to the boom in a gun with ammunition that is not accurately labeled. There are numerous threads on this site with posts around concerns with Buffalo Bore 10mm ammunition. I'm simply pointing out one more case where that happened. It blew up in the face and damaged the firearm if you read about it on the pages of that site. If that information isn't valuable in a forum about 10mm ammunition and firearms, then my apologies. I would not allow any friends to shoot that stuff without being fully informed of the risks.
It's probably not suited for the firearm and Deltas are known for the unsupported issue. I wonder how many people really shoot it? It's outrageous in price, no telling what components you will get and the packaging is nuts!
Quote from: Intercooler on October 28 2015 07:15:52 AM MDT
It's probably not suited for the firearm and Deltas are known for the unsupported issue. I wonder how many people really shoot it? It's outrageous in price, no telling what components you will get and the packaging is nuts!
Agreed. That's my point. Why should a consumer have to learn online in various threads about it being unsuitable for the firearm? Especially concerning are the claims on BB's site that it is safe for all pistols in ordinary working condition. It isn't.
Live and learn, even if the latter has to be by a bad experience or two along the way, as long as you get to continue doing the former.
Somehow they get away with it. We can't let the owner's totally off the hook though not stepping up the ladder into high performance ammunition.
The linked website is related to one incident. It references other anecdotal incidents.
I have fired a good deal of Buffalo Bore ammo. It is quite warm, which is why I buy it. I am also very aware that hot 10mm ammo carries an inherent higher risk of this kind of situation. The referenced web-page seems to indicate the author was at least peripherally aware of this fact by asserting his careful investigation to insure the ammo was safe in his gun. This would also indicate they were aware of a concern related to case head support in some DE barrels.
Perhaps the maker is being negligent in not providing more detailed warnings.
It would be nice if full-size pictures were provided on the "Failure!" page of the website. It would also be nice if the website had been tested in a variety of browsers, because on Chrome/OS X many of the pages have graphics over the top of text that make the site very difficult to read. You have to guess what words are hidden.
In the interest of full-disclosure, are you the shooter involved with the incident documented at badammo.com?
Over the years I have seen many post of the Delta Elites with brass bulges almost completely around the brass cases and yes have I seen some which blew out. One thing that I see from those pictures on the site, the catastrophic failure of the brass...here is my thoughts of how it failed.
The firing pin struck the primer igniting the powder, as pressure builds, the primer backed out causing the slide to move. unlock and this allowed the casing to also move backwards slamming into the breech at peak pressure with even more unsupported casing to which point the casing tore under pressure causing a casing blowout.
What leads me to believe this? I have experienced primers which have popped out during testing from Starline brass as used by Underwood and have experienced slightly loose fitting primers in some new Starline casings while loading my own. I have stated before Starline brass is softer because it is a handloaders brass which can be reloaded several times before it becomes work hardened. All brass should be made to hold up to the rated pressures of the design.
The scariest thing I have seen from Buffalo Bore was the amount of powder used under the Buffalo Bore Barnes 155gr TAC-XP ammo where the powder was so compressed it came out like a solid pill. ???
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0124_zpsf2cf99f6.jpg)
If these ammo makers are loading outside of the SAAMI specifications for the cartridge design, then they would be liable for any all damages. So do they actually submit ammo to certified proper lab testing?
I have asked Underwood specifically if their ammo is within SAAMI pressure standards and their reply was it was...
One of the reasons I handload is that I can test various things for myself, some of which is pulling ammo apart and documenting what was found, then working test to see if it fits certain profiles of published loading data vs. what was found! :o
If Buffalo Bore ammo was within SAAMI pressure specs, it would be good in "ANY" 10mm gun designed to shoot the 10m cartridge. If a gun could not shoot 10mm ammo that was within SAAMI specs, it is the gun's fault, not the ammo. The only way BB could be at fault is if the ammo was out of SAAMI specs - which is what I think BB ammo is, and it is why I won't use it.
If I needed more power from my 10mm, I would go to a bigger caliber - not super duper ammo.
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This looks like it was the 220gr HC round...not an easy pill.
I don't ever think you will see Sig Ammo going over 1250 stated on their box. Nugent 180's stay in the 1200+ range. Kinda wish U/W would make more in their offerings 1200+ besides the Nosler. I inquired about ordering a load at 1300 165s, and their response was a min of 500 on CUSTOM orders. Don't get me wrong, Underwood speaks for itself. But super fast isn't getting penetration and bullet deformation occurs. What we get is loud rounds and questionable penetration. I speak regarding self defense situations, not hunting. I shot Nugents and i like HPR as well.
interesting/ Perhaps Tim Sundles should put warnings on his boxes as Underwood does.
So should Colt.
I am not buying a Colt due to the chamber support issue. Normally, all my 1911's are Colts.
When the time comes, I think I will be going with Kimber or Dan Wesson.
Let's knock it off. 1911s are traditional. 45s. Colt was a savior,but it's limited.
It's all good brother. We aren't bashing Colt, just being honest in our assessment of its capabilities as pertaining to 10mm.
As stated above, all my 1911's are Colts, and my first choice in a 10mm 1911 would have been a Delta Elite. Unfortunately though, due to the design I can't shoot full power 10mm with confidence in it.
This isn't a bash. They seriously should have put something in the manual about what could be shot out of it. I don't know if Glock does, but Tanfoglio say no +P... we still do it and can only point the finger at ourselves should something happen.
Tanfoglio ships the same manual with all there guns. +P means something to 9mm and 45 ACP, but it has no meaning in relation to 10mm. There is no 10mm +P in SAAMI spec.
Either a gun will fire 10mm spec ammo safely or it won't. Either ammo complies with the 10mm SAAMI profile or it doesn't.
The real issue we start to have is transparency in what ammo is. Underwood says there ammo is SAAMI spec verified by independent lab. Great, publish the lab results as a PDF on the website. Same for Buffalo Bore.
Same for handguns. Develop proof loads, have them lab tested and publish the results, and then publish results of standardized proof testing.
Of course, the market doesn't support companies that follow these kind of quality standards. Are there any gun or ammo makers that are ISO 9001 certified?
I hate to say it, but shouldn't the owner's do some research and testing with their firearm/ammo? If I bought that Grand Power I wouldn't go right to Buffalo Bore. That's even with one of their sales guy saying any SAAMI spec 10mm can be fired in it. I have seen the barrel and would go from .40-lite on up as I observe.
Quote from: Intercooler on October 29 2015 09:37:48 AM MDT
I hate to say it, but shouldn't the owner's do some research and testing with their firearm/ammo? If I bought that Grand Power I wouldn't go right to Buffalo Bore. That's even with one of their sales guy saying any SAMI spec 10mm can be fired in it. I have seen the barrel and would go from .40-lite on up as I observe.
I have thought about posting a similar comment. It is pretty easy to google Delta Elite ammo concerns and find pages of links that indicate Buffalo Bore may not be the best choice.
People find evidence to support what they want to think. So this doesn't work for most people because they wont' follow a methodology that eliminates their bias from the results.
I fire a few BB 180's out of my Delta at the end of my practice. The worst that has happened is that the primer pops out.
There is no +P standard and nothing on the box indicates it is a risk in any firearms. Considering this is an off the shelf product that can be found by any shooter, it should be more clearly labeled. But, nothing governs consumer safety when it comes to ammunition besides litigation. I don't think one should require hand loading experience or knowledge when buying a retail product like this. Neither should a web search around ammunition blowing up be required.
My Delta Elite does NOT bulge other ammunition that I've fed it. I would check websites for any non-mainstream brands I may come across and buy before loading it in my firearm. Buffalo Bore does not help the consumer there, though. In fact, they have several misleading statements and content on their site with respect to this product and use in "any" firearm.
Possibly it is a bad barrel or firearm? I have had one... Ruger Redhawk that took a few efforts plus dimension checks to finally find it.
No +P rating, but the box says...
"Heavy 10mm" "Strictly Business"
Those are key words to be investigated and the standard fodder isn't marked/marketed in the "Heavy" line.
Quote from: colt1911fan on October 30 2015 04:58:42 AM MDT
My Delta Elite does NOT bulge other ammunition that I've fed it.
The only guns I have that don't return the occasional bulge with max 10mm loads are my Witness guns. Glock does, Para does. Not bad and not every time, but sometimes.
When they start bulging in my Witnesses I know I am well and truly over the line.
Buffalo Bore 220 gr blow the primers when shot from my ramped barrel 1911. I do not shoot that garbage anymore.
Attention!
You must be 18 or older to order ammunition. Ammunition must ship UPS ground. Due to Department of Transportation regulations, we cannot accept returns on Ammunition. Make sure to use the correct ammunition in your gun. Check local laws before ordering.
That's on the site for the 220 HC. Is that printed somewhere on the box?
I just went to Buffalo Bore's website. They have new 10mm offereing.
BUFFALO-BARNES TACTICAL (low recoil & low flash) 10MM
TACTICAL, LEAD FREE Low Recoil & Low Flash 10MM Ammo
155 gr. BARNES TAC-XP (1,350fps/M.E. 627 ft. lbs.)
20 Round Box
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=408
BUFFALO BORE TACTICAL (low recoil & low flash) 10MM
TACTICAL Low Recoil & Low Flash 10MM Ammo
180 gr. FMJ-FN (1,200fps/M.E. 575 ft. lbs.)
20 Round Box
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=407
BUFFALO BORE TACTICAL (low recoil & low flash) 10MM
TACTICAL Low Recoil & Low Flash 10MM Ammo
180 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point - J.H.P. (1,200fps/M.E. 575 ft. lbs.)
20 Round Box
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=405
BUFFALO BORE TACTICAL (low recoil & low flash) 10MM
TACTICAL Low Recoil & Low Flash 10MM Ammo
155 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point - J.H.P. (1,350fps/M.E. 627 ft. lbs.)
20 Round Box
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=406
.
Thanks for posting this. Interesting!
That would be the "Non-Heavy" line.
Quote from: Intercooler on October 30 2015 12:50:46 PM MDT
Attention!
You must be 18 or older to order ammunition. Ammunition must ship UPS ground. Due to Department of Transportation regulations, we cannot accept returns on Ammunition. Make sure to use the correct ammunition in your gun. Check local laws before ordering.
That's on the site for the 220 HC. Is that printed somewhere on the box?
What is your point? Are you proposing that this is "the" warning to the consumer who is also told that the product is good for all pistols in ordinary working condition and to not call them because their products are safe? That and "strictly" business are the warnings? What steps beyond reading their lax safety declarations and the caliber should one be doing? Read some secret code into "Make sure to use the correct ammunition in your gun" and "strictly business"? I can see doing research around what is the performance and making sure you are getting your money's worth. No one could claim about a spontaneous purchase gone wrong on expectations of performance vs. dollars, but basic consumer safety? I'm not following you at all.
I could be totally wrong here but Buffalo Bore hasn't been on mainstream shelves like Cabela's for long. My point is most know what Buffalo Bore is... high performance. Most know what PPU and American Eagle are... low performance. If a call is placed to Colt and they are asked if it's okay to run Buffalo Bore in it, the answer is probably no.
As for what to do? I just laid out the best approach up there since every pistol is different. Possibly your unit isn't where the member just posted his Colt is with missing primers. Every new box of ammo I get I check them and measure their weights before shooting. I'm the last line of defense!
Quote from: Intercooler on October 30 2015 06:46:21 PM MDT
I could be totally wrong here but Buffalo Bore hasn't been on mainstream shelves like Cabela's for long. My point is most know what Buffalo Bore is... high performance. Most know what PPU and American Eagle are... low performance. If a call is placed to Colt and they are asked if it's okay to run Buffalo Bore in it, the answer is probably no.
As for what to do? I just laid out the best approach up there since every pistol is different. Possibly your unit isn't where the member just posted his Colt is with missing primers. Every new box of ammo I get I check them and measure their weights before shooting. I'm the last line of defense!
Fair enough. Definitely can't argue against either point as sound wisdom. Ammo manufacturers simply can't be trusted. Double check "botique" folks by calling firearm manufacturer AND ammo maker AND check weights, check the first casing that is ejected, etc.... For mainstream low performance stuff, weigh them all. Be the last line of defense. Continue to educate thyself.
But, wow, sure seems like there ought to be some accountability to the manufacturers as they rake in our $s on off the shelf products labelled for a use they aren't suitable for. And, while I support rules and laws that protect firearm and ammo makers from law suits of deliberate abuse of their products (mass shooters are the criminals, not the gun or ammo companies in those cases), it's absurd that there is no accountability for their liabilities other than a lawsuit that is only worthwhile when a major injury occurs. That's insanity. Tire makers are accountable for their product as they enterprise; they aren't for folks that use their tires to kill a bunch of people at a homecoming.
When things have surfaced, a few like Underwood and Swamp Fox paid for any damage. I don't think a lot of Buffalo Bore is being shot here for more reasons than one!
You found us though and we put them all under the microscope constantly to see what's what. Feel free to ask about any ammo you come across. One of us here will have the dope on it!
Quote from: colt1911fan on October 30 2015 07:06:26 PM MDT
... Ammo manufacturers simply can't be trusted. Double check "botique" folks by calling firearm manufacturer AND ammo maker AND check weights, check the first casing that is ejected, etc.... For mainstream low performance stuff, weigh them all. Be the last line of defense. Continue to educate thyself.
...
When I test my high power loads, I remove the magazine from the gun. If there is a blow-out, the gasses have somewhere to go and my magazine won't get damaged.
.
The manuals for the Colt pistols do tell you not to run +p ammunition in them. The reason though, is not for "blowouts" but it says +p will increase wear in their pistols.
Hey, a blowout is a form of wear, right?
I realize there is no industry standard +p designation for 10mm. Just thought I would throw that out there. The Delta Elite comes equipped with a 23 pound recoil spring. The standard Colt .45 ACP recoil spring is 16 pounds. So it does seem that Colt was trying to gear up for the extra slide velocity of the 10mm cartridge. Who really knows why Colt didn't go with a ramped barrel setup? Either they didn't do their homework back in the day, or perhaps the mainstream 10mm ammo wasn't quite as hot back then as it is now.
Something to ponder.
Looky Here >
http://www.ballistics101.com/10mm.php
If you look at Underwoods ..."Delta " load it is down on power from the others
Absolutely. And for good reason.
Here is what I can say the proof is there in the Pull-Down section of this forum, thanks to those who shared their ammo for the examination and documentations.
BTW I see people mentioning +P ammo, in 10mm there is NO +P ammo because the SAAMI spec is set at 37.500 PSI.
Now here is how that works out;
Example of SAAMI 205 10mm pressure MAP http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf)
The specific loads of the test have to fit the MAP set by SAAMI.
Here is a typical MAP as set by SAAMI
Nominal Mean Instrument @ 15 feet with =/-90 fps from test barrel
Maximum Average pressure MAP of 35700 psi
Maximum Portable Lot Mean MPLM of 38700 psi
Maximum Portable Sample Mean MPSM of 40500 psi
The ammunition in test (10 rounds) would need to fit this established profile.
Nothing in the sample over 40500 psi
Here is something to consider...The piezoelectric transducer system employs the transducer flush mounted inside the chamber of the test barrel. Pressures developed by the expanding gases to the cartridge walls causing the transducer to deflect creating a measurable electrical charge. This change is then converted to a pressure reading in psi.
Systems being sold are being used on the outside of the chamber of the test barrel. The expanding cartridge is not directly acting upon the transducer as in the SAAMI testing.
Proof Pressures for 10mm are 130% minimum and 140% maximum as set by SAAMI
The formula is based on the Maximum Portable Lot Mean MPLM of 38,700 psi
38,700 x 1.30 = 50,310 psi and 38,700 x 1.40 = 54,180 psi
Minimum and Maximum
50,310 psi - 54,180 psi these would be rounded to 50,500 psi - 54,000 psi
All ya gots to do is gets u one of dem bully berrels , it's thicker than a normal berrel so it can handle the extry pressures ....its simples !
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 31 2015 09:25:41 AM MDT
Here is what I can say the proof is there in the Pull-Down section of this forum, thanks to those who shared their ammo for the examination and documentations.
BTW I see people mentioning +P ammo, in 10mm there is NO +P ammo because the SAAMI spec is set at 37.500 PSI.
Correct. Which is why I followed it up with this:
"I realize there is no industry standard +p designation for 10mm. Just thought I would throw that out there"
I was speaking of the verbiage in the Colt manuals. In other words, if they are not rated for +p ammo, then it stands to reason their design is not up to snuff for a steady diet of full power 10mm ammo.
Yeah...Some folks get confused about +P cause they see it in the manual that came with their 10mm. The manuals, at least in my experience, are never caliber specific. Same manual goes in the box with a 45 ACP for which there is a SAAMI 45 ACP +P designation.
And, yes, as Shadow mentions, if the gun is built to handle 10mm spec ammo then it should withstand a 54,000 PSI proof round. I will tell you that I am not going to volunteer to shoot a 54K PSI round from a Delta Elite. IMHO a round lack that demands better case head support than the Delta offers.
Buffalo Bore sells a lot of ammo. I carried it for several years. But, I think they are doing a dis-service saying on their website that the ammo is fine in a Delta Elite. I think you will get the occasional round that falls within saami specs, but on the very upper end for the lot, that will have the potential for an event. Add to it the reports of popped primers, and it becomes clear that there is some kind of issue here.
Quote from: sqlbullet on October 31 2015 12:10:57 PM MDT
Yeah...Some folks get confused about +P cause they see it in the manual that came with their 10mm. The manuals, at least in my experience, are never caliber specific. Same manual goes in the box with a 45 ACP for which there is a SAAMI 45 ACP +P designation.
And, yes, as Shadow mentions, if the gun is built to handle 10mm spec ammo then it should withstand a 54,000 PSI proof round. I will tell you that I am not going to volunteer to shoot a 54K PSI round from a Delta Elite. IMHO a round lack that demands better case head support than the Delta offers.
Buffalo Bore sells a lot of ammo. I carried it for several years. But, I think they are doing a dis-service saying on their website that the ammo is fine in a Delta Elite. I think you will get the occasional round that falls within saami specs, but on the very upper end for the lot, that will have the potential for an event. Add to it the reports of popped primers, and it becomes clear that there is some kind of issue here.
They really should issue warnings on their boxes in the same manner that Underwood does.
I guess it hasn't been that much of an issue until now.
Plenty of people still throwing money at them.
Makes me, once again, really wish I had a pressure barrel.
Personally I don't think that todays brass is as strong as it use to be.
StarLine is a soft and very malleable brass.
Older Winchester was a good fairly strong.
NORMA was also stiffer sturdier.
Federal was somewhat brittle and often split on the first factory loading.
Horandy was a stiffer brass too.
Remington was good to go.
So just how much the brass plays into these upper end performance loads is something to think about!
What's Scary is you can walk into any Academy , Cabellas ...etc..etc...and buy a 10mm new , walk into a gun show and buy one used or new or individual purchase one . With NO advise on what type of ammo is go or no-go ...
Probably 90% of buyers only think about ...I need 10mm ammo ! No research on the firearm they are using , ammo requirements and limitations... etc
My father in law has a Delta Elite I've been trying to beat him out of for years , if not for Forums such as this one I would have ran whatever ammo I could have got my hands on thru it ..so yes I think ammo makers need to specify these dangers on their boxes
Quote from: my_old_glock on October 30 2015 07:37:33 PM MDT
When I test my high power loads, I remove the magazine from the gun. If there is a blow-out, the gasses have somewhere to go and my magazine won't get damaged.
Good advice. I accidentally loaded a hot 10mm round with Alliant Promo (Red Dot equiv) instead of Longshot and had a RIA M1911 10mm disassemble in my hand. It all went back together without any problem and was none the worse for wear, but if I had not had the magazine in there, the pressure from the ruptured case would have just escaped down the mag well and probably not even blown the grips off (much less cause the magazine baseplate to leave).
According to Quickload, it was a 167K psi load. :(
(https://www.googledrive.com/host/0B8A9o0AImjXHfmlSQWdFVFRfSmd6d19mTG1jVXUzRWhrZk1KQWFvdjJidlFtUERRcXh3M1k/ria-10mm-ruptured-brass.jpg)
Considering how the gun just went back together with virtually no damage, I was pretty impressed with the RIA build quality.
And in case you're wondering, yeah, when the gun disassembles itself in your hand, it does kind of sting...
OUCH! Got hate when something like that happens...glad you were not seriously hurt... 8)
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 10 2015 10:49:33 AM MST
OUCH! Got hate when something like that happens...glad you were not seriously hurt... 8)
Yeah, it kind of got my attention. But it also makes me wonder about the RIA vs Colt Delta Elite. Supposedly, you should not even try this load in a Delta Elite *with* the right powder (much less by accidentally using the wrong powder), but when loaded correctly, the RIA seems to handle it without a problem. In this particular case, I had intended to load 8.6 gr of Longshot. My current heavy load is pretty much a duplicate of the Underwood heavy load. I'm using the Lee TL410-210-SWC (.41 mag SWC) resized to 10mm, which produces a WFN (wide flat nose) and minimal lube grooves. I'm powdercoating the bullets instead of using a wax/grease lube. I'm using .40SW brass, loaded to 10mm OAL and it is loaded with 8.4 gr of Hodgdon Longshot.
(https://www.googledrive.com/host/0B8A9o0AImjXHfmlSQWdFVFRfSmd6d19mTG1jVXUzRWhrZk1KQWFvdjJidlFtUERRcXh3M1k/lee-tl410-210-swc-resized-10mm-loaded-320w.jpg)
Quote from: NavyVet1959 on November 10 2015 11:26:38 AM MST
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 10 2015 10:49:33 AM MST
OUCH! Got hate when something like that happens...glad you were not seriously hurt... 8)
Yeah, it kind of got my attention. But it also makes me wonder about the RIA vs Colt Delta Elite. Supposedly, you should not even try this load in a Delta Elite *with* the right powder (much less by accidentally using the wrong powder), but when loaded correctly, the RIA seems to handle it without a problem. In this particular case, I had intended to load 8.6 gr of Longshot. My current heavy load is pretty much a duplicate of the Underwood heavy load. I'm using the Lee TL410-210-SWC (.41 mag SWC) resized to 10mm, which produces a WFN (wide flat nose) and minimal lube grooves. I'm powdercoating the bullets instead of using a wax/grease lube. I'm using .40SW brass, loaded to 10mm OAL and it is loaded with 8.4 gr of Alliant Longshot.
(https://www.googledrive.com/host/0B8A9o0AImjXHfmlSQWdFVFRfSmd6d19mTG1jVXUzRWhrZk1KQWFvdjJidlFtUERRcXh3M1k/lee-tl410-210-swc-resized-10mm-loaded-320w.jpg)
Just a correction LongShot is Hodgdon's brand of powder...
I have seen where many are loading the 40S&W cases as loaded at 10mm COAL's...Just as a side note the bullets can rub and roll up on the end of the chamber cut to leave carbon deposits and fouling. This would need to be cleaned well before using the 10mm cases to prevent FTF stoppages as the longer 10mm casing encounters the last 1/8" end of the chamber.
Do you have a velocity measurement for your 210 resized as loaded on the 40S&W cases?
With the bullets loaded that long I would expect a huge freebore is needed, lest the bullets just seat themselves deeper on chambering.
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 10 2015 12:01:26 PM MST
Just a correction LongShot is Hodgdon's brand of powder...
Thanks... I guess I had a brainfart... Caffeine level not quite up to optimal for fully functional mental capacity yet today. :)
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 10 2015 12:01:26 PM MST
I have seen where many are loading the 40S&W cases as loaded at 10mm COAL's...Just as a side note the bullets can rub and roll up on the end of the chamber cut to leave carbon deposits and fouling. This would need to be cleaned well before using the 10mm cases to prevent FTF stoppages as the longer 10mm casing encounters the last 1/8" end of the chamber.
Do you have a velocity measurement for your 210 resized as loaded on the 40S&W cases?
Once I verified that the .40SW brass seems to work without a problem in my RIA 10mm, G29, and G20, I seldom use my 10mm brass anymore, but thanks for the heads up. I'll look at that area a bit closer after my next extended range session using the .40SW brass.
With the 50:50 Pb:WW alloy that I'm using, these work out to be an average of around 216 gr, the same as the Underwood 220 gr loads that I saw on this site (here) (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-220gr-cast-wfn-1230-fps-pull-down). According to that thread, this was a 1236 fps / 747 ft-lb load. I'm not sure that is entirely correct though since for the energy to be 747 ft-lbs, you must be using 220 gr in the calculation instead of the 216.4 that he measured as the actual bullet weight.
Using a value of 32.174 fps for the acceleration due to gravity (G), the kinetic energy 1/2 * mass * velocity^2, after converting to grains simplifies to:
weight-of-bullet * velocity * velocity / 450436
Using 216.4 gr as the weight in the calculations, it should work out to be 733.94 ft-lbs.
Quote from: sqlbullet on November 10 2015 12:24:01 PM MST
With the bullets loaded that long I would expect a huge freebore is needed, lest the bullets just seat themselves deeper on chambering.
No, they are loaded to 10mm OAL, but in .40SW brass, and are being fired in a 10mm chamber, so there are no chambering issues.
I gotcha.
In some guns with weak extractors, this might be an issue, and probably would not be a recommended practice. But if it is working, more power to you.
Quote from: sqlbullet on November 10 2015 01:22:24 PM MST
I gotcha.
In some guns with weak extractors, this might be an issue, and probably would not be a recommended practice. But if it is working, more power to you.
When I first started doing it, I was doing it in the G20 and G29 since they supposedly had a stronger extractor design. Eventually, I stumbled across a RIA 10mm M1911 to add to my collection and decided to give it a try with it, fully suspecting something bad to happen. I was surprised that it worked without a problem. Later, I saw how Johnny Rowland was saying that you could shoot .45 ACP in the M1911 that were converted to .460 Rowland. As such, in that chamber, the .45 ACP was headspacing off of the extractor instead of the case mouth, just like if you were to shoot *normal* .40SW in a 10mm. With the .40SW brass used to load 10mm rounds to 10mm max OAL, that is even less of an issue since in many cases, the bullet is resting on / very near the rifling grooves anyway. Even if you just drop one of these rounds into a barrel, they don't fall as deeply as a normal .40SW round would fall. In practice though, when you consider variations in case lengths, many semi-autos are probably headspacing off the extractor anyway, even when they are not doing something like this.
I would not want to try it in my Witness. Though the gun is built like a tank, the firing pin will protrude a long way, and I bet it could knock a case off the extractor.
But in guns where that doesnt' happen, it should be fine.
Did you get the Underwood 220gr load data here? I see your results are close to mine.
Quote from: sqlbullet on November 10 2015 03:44:39 PM MST
I would not want to try it in my Witness. Though the gun is built like a tank, the firing pin will protrude a long way, and I bet it could knock a case off the extractor.
But in guns where that doesnt' happen, it should be fine.
I guess you could try it out with a round just loaded with just a primer. Or a dummy round with no powder and a spent primer.
Quote from: Intercooler on November 10 2015 04:01:29 PM MST
Did you get the Underwood 220gr load data here? I see your results are close to mine.
Yeah, I was using your post (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-220gr-cast-wfn-1230-fps-pull-down/) as a source for that loading.
That's good to know! I'm glad people are able to reproduce the results based off the stuff The Shadow and myself do.
Quote from: Intercooler on November 10 2015 05:55:40 PM MST
That's good to know! I'm glad people are able to reproduce the results based off the stuff The Shadow and myself do.
Actually, I have not shot it through a chrony yet. I was just quoting the figures that you had put in your post. What I do know though is that it has not blown up my G29, G20, nor my RIA M1911 10mm. I also noticed that it was more comfortable to shoot in the M1911 than in the G29 or G20.
Quote from: NavyVet1959 on November 10 2015 04:27:26 PM MST
I guess you could try it out with a round just loaded with just a primer. Or a dummy round with no powder and a spent primer.
In order to have a statistically valid sample I would need to repeat the experiment at least 50, and probably a couple hundred times. And should expand that sample set to include a wide variety of different brass makes to account for variations. One successful (or failed) test in my gun does not constitute a meaningful result.
Seems to me that there is plenty of 10mm brass to be had. It isn't free, but it also isn't prohibitively expensive. I will just stick with 10mm. If others wanna do something different, more power to them.