It helps to read the story first. I tend to think he heard barking after knocking (story reads different). Us normal folks wouldn't have had the same option and would have taken at least the first bite... then went from there.
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cowardly-cop-murders-family-dog-front-door-daughter-watches-horror/#QQFoKFAAy5TWfRCk.01
Yes...I won't play Monday afternoon qb.
He must have felt endangered.
I will not let a dog rush at me teeth bared, gnashing and threatening to take a chunk from my body. If I feel as if my life and/or safety is sufficiently threatened, the dog is history.
End of story.
On your own property I agree, but someone elses?
Interesting that they're treated as property:
http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2014/06/if-police-shoot-your-dog-can-you-sue.html
Quote from: Intercooler on October 23 2015 05:52:42 AM MDT
On your own property I agree, but someone elses?
Had it been me, a private citizen, knocking at the door, I likely would have backed up and drawn my weapon at the sound of a vicious dog slavering and gnashing it's teeth. If it had lunged at me, the dog would be gone. Double tap and await to see if the attack continued. If so double tap until the threat had been neutralized.
Let's see... It is either:
a) a $2.00 expenditure of ammunition, or,
b) a great deal of pain, hundreds of dollars in hospitalization and lost time from my personal life.
Gee... the former seems the soundest of the two!
Quote from: Intercooler on October 23 2015 05:52:42 AM MDT
On your own property I agree, but someone elses?
I would assume he had 'right and privilege' to be on private property
Here is my problem. This video illustrates it perfectly.
The job of the police, as I see it, is to secure my rights. When I was young I held them in high esteem because they were heroes who would ensure my rights were protected, even if it meant giving up their own lives.
Then I went to the police academy and worked in law enforcement for two years. And found out that first on the list is not citizens rights, but officer safety.
And videos like this illustrate that too many of the police officers we have today have NO consideration for the very rights there are hired to secure. Rights to life, liberty and property. As IC points out, a dog is property and is on the list of things law enforcement is paid to ensure my right to enjoy. But modern departmental policies will allow this officer a pass on shooting a law abiding families dog in their front yard because they left their car door open.
To those that think the officer had no option, I can't agree. I grew up in rural Indiana. My dad was a feed salesman. We went into plenty of yards with dogs that were none to happy about us being there. Some were downright vicious. Never bitten. You can usually make a dog stop his advance just by yelling at it like a mad man. If they dont stop, get outta their territory. They often won't pursue you beyond they yard. Never underestimate the value of a solid kick, and edged weapons defensive tactics work well for avoiding teeth.
I am all for officer safety, but not at the expense of their first function: citizens rights. If officers don't like that, get a different job.
I went on a walk last weekend and had a Great Dane come up to the fence nasty! If it jumped the fence and got me, the owner can't say a thing for me popping it. I can't go on their property though and kill it charging at me.
So does the Police officer have no option for potential self-defense?
Time was of the essence when the dog exited the house; a mere 5 feet or less to react to a charging dog. Based upon the expediency and disposition of creature, there wasn't time to play all the alternatives. I hate to see a dog shot, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Tetanus shots, Rabies shots....not pleasant.
Animals are considered personal property, just like a coat/sock/shoe/video etc. However, most insurance policies exclude these; i.e Animals/Birds/Fish for any personal property coverage. Although, liability is different.
Disclosure:
Having been cornered while out cycling on trails on two different occasions, I have had the unfortunate opportunity to defend myself from dogs; so my disposition of an attacking dog may be different than someone who has never encountered the onslaught of an attack; rather the nagging barking incident.
Yea, don't go on people's property.
The average citizen doesn't carry a firearm up to an unknowns house.
"I am all for officer safety, but not at the expense of their first function: citizens rights. If officers don't like that, get a different job."
Well life being what it is , even the courts have ruled the cops don't have to protect citizens over their own safety. And do the citizens have more rights than the cops? Seems to me it should be equal.
Was an LEO for 32 yrs, and I liked going home with all the parts I went to work with! ( and did see a junk yard dog rip a good chunk of another guys calf out... he never came back to work ).
Quote from: tommac919 on October 23 2015 12:08:25 PM MDT
Well life being what it is , even the courts have ruled the cops don't have to protect citizens over their own safety.
I get that this is they way it is, and that this is how the courts have ruled. I just don't agree that it is the way it should be.
They get police powers, and they are, IMHO under burden by their oath to place my rights ahead of their own. No one is forcing them to be there.
Without audio it is not possible to tell what the officer heard, and that may sway my feelings in this case. But the statement of the owners is that the dog was neither growling or barking, just curious. Based on that statement and what I saw, I think this is over the line.
And, yeah, in general, I find what is allowable under current case law and department policy to be a huge encroachment on citizens rights. I would love for it to go back to equal.
Quote from: sqlbullet on October 23 2015 01:56:17 PM MDT
Quote from: tommac919 on October 23 2015 12:08:25 PM MDT
Well life being what it is , even the courts have ruled the cops don't have to protect citizens over their own safety.
I get that this is they way it is, and that this is how the courts have ruled. I just don't agree that it is the way it should be.
They get police powers, and they are, IMHO under burden by their oath to place my rights ahead of their own. No one is forcing them to be there.
Without audio it is not possible to tell what the officer heard, and that may sway my feelings in this case. But the statement of the owners is that the dog was neither growling or barking, just curious. Based on that statement and what I saw, I think this is over the line.
And, yeah, in general, I find what is allowable under current case law and department policy to be a huge encroachment on citizens rights. I would love for it to go back to equal.
Oftentimes, the attacking dog does not alert it's victim through growling/barking. These, barking and/or growling, are generally tendencies to encourage the intruder to depart. On the other hand, when in full attack mode, very seldom do they make loud discouraging noises.
It's always better to have a totally trained Dog that won't approach or try to escape out the door. In a way since these people and Dog were on their own property, I was really expecting the lady coming out of the house to be coming with a shotgun to blast the Police. I know many people that would if you shot their Dog on their own property!
something was going on in the house that put the officer on edge even before he knocked. He was definately approaching for a reason other than an open car door, or had started to initially and upon getting near the front, something made him defensive.
Just as he crosses the first visible line in the sidewalk you can see his whole tactic change to a cautious defensive one. His knock on the door is almost timid. He was expecting something to happen. It is obvious he is paying close attention to the sounds he is hearing come from in the house.
Why a gun??? I can't think of a dog running through pepper spray. Instead the officer is pumping rounds into a concrete surface with people in line for ricochets.
I've been around dogs for just about my whole life. I've been face to face with several that were threats, and never did I have to resort to anything that harmed one aside from a defensive blow or kick. That dog was not a threat to life. The officer's decision placed those people in that level of threat. It was a really bad decision IMHO.
Greg
I suppose I'll be the evil one and state NEVER open you door to police, at least short of seeing a search warrant. That would be one thing that would have prevented the dog from getting out. For just an open door on a car, that could easily be communicated through the door.
Police today are different from my earlier years. More and more they are used as a cash generating scheme for governments that will never be satisfied with their current level of funding. More and more they look at us as subjects or potential suspects when the truth is they are our servants. More and more I see police making poor decisions that remove all other options other than the use of deadly force when things go wrong. I blame the way they are currently trained.
Greg
Quote from: tommac919 on October 23 2015 12:08:25 PM MDT
And do the citizens have more rights than the cops? Seems to me it should be equal.
I have liberty, and a full set of rights from God, and have possessed them as my birth right. As I believe, I may do as I wish as long as what I do doesn't harm another person. Very broad rights over a very small kingdom.
As soon as I contract with an employer, any employer, I no longer possess those rights while performing at the job. I must do things as instructed. I cannot come and go as I wish. I have to interact with some individuals that I'd normally not choose to interact with. I can quit to regain my prior status, but as long as I remain in employment, I am not free. I am under contract.
Police are additionally restrained by contracts that restrict their bosses (governments) such as constitutions, statutes, laws, rules, and layers and layers of power structure above them. The Police don't have more power over those that they stop. They have much less. They are much more restricted. What complicates this even more is it the public being pulled over by the public servant.
All the power rests with the people according to Locke.
Greg
Now days most cops are nut jobs. No decent person wants to be a cop. Look at what happened to Darren Wilson in Ferguson.
The cop was scared. The dog sensed it. The cop ran. The dog gave pursuit.
Why was the cop there anyways?
.
There are some in the mix who shouldn't be there. In my department it ran about 10-20% that were bully's and couldn't de-escalate a situation. Guys that probably had no real business with a badge and a gun. Another 10% or so were way to timid to do the job.
That second group washes out fast. Unfortunately all to often they get hurt. Sometimes they get someone hurt with them. I saw both.
The first group though, the process doesn't seem to get them washed out. And if you have bureaucrats to don't understand the job making promotion decisions, they sometimes climb the ladder fast.
I still have lots of friends in LE, and I am grateful for the job they do. But police officers have disproportionately more rights than citizens and that is wrong.
Curious the Ofc was not in uniform as well. Maybe on a task force, i don't know. Ran the tag, got address and was simply going to advise them. Me, i would secure door after a visual check for signs of criminal activity and if no signs, close door and move on. Dog owners have a responsibility as well to contain the dog from simply busting out the door from a simple knock. Back in the days of the knight stick,
it was out and under the arm in advance. But are PC enviorment today, that's not good perception. That would be agressive in appearance. Now the Ofc who's in full uniform with various tools might have handled this in a diff manner. I say might.
That dog would be alive today if the idiot owners would have been responsible and controlled it.
True, but curious Dogs shoot out every so often unless they have had pretty advanced obedience training. Although it's not the best thing, that's still the people's property (physical and Dog) and the officer really didn't need to be there (if the story is true).
So...Lets put a spin on this.
I am at home watching Arrow on Netflix. My doorbell rings, and I go to answer it. I carefully look through the peep-hole and see a causually dressed man with no identfying badge as a solicitor, who has a glock shaped bulge on his right hip. As I open the door to see what is needed, my dog that I just rescued from the pound a few weeks earlier scurries out cause he likes the yard.
Before I can even register what is happening, my ears are ringing, my dog is dead and there is a man with a gun at the low ready in my yard. Training takes over and I draw and fire two shots center mass at my would be killer, because why else would a stranger show up on my porch and kill my dog if he didn't mean me ill will.
Am I justified in this hypothetical. And, yes, my state has a no-retreat castle doctrine.
Quote from: Intercooler on October 26 2015 05:18:24 PM MDT
True, but curious Dogs shoot out every so often unless they have had pretty advanced obedience training. Although it's not the best thing, that's still the people's property (physical and Dog) and the officer really didn't need to be there (if the story is true).
My dog is just as curious as the next, but I take steps to control him.
Quote from: sqlbullet on October 26 2015 05:53:40 PM MDT
So...Lets put a spin on this.
I am at home watching Arrow on Netflix. My doorbell rings, and I go to answer it. I carefully look through the peep-hole and see a causually dressed man with no identfying badge as a solicitor, who has a glock shaped bulge on his right hip. As I open the door to see what is needed, my dog that I just rescued from the pound a few weeks earlier scurries out cause he likes the yard.
Before I can even register what is happening, my ears are ringing, my dog is dead and there is a man with a gun at the low ready in my yard. Training takes over and I draw and fire two shots center mass at my would be killer, because why else would a stranger show up on my porch and kill my dog if he didn't mean me ill will.
Am I justified in this hypothetical. And, yes, my state has a no-retreat castle doctrine.
Same thing happened at Ruby Ridge. The SWAT team opened up on a dog owned by Weavers, and Kevin Harris shot back, killing Deputy Marshal Degan.
Harris was charged with Degan's murder, and was later acquitted of the charges in court.
I'm with sqlbullet. I think some over-stepping took place in this situation!
Quote from: Intercooler on October 26 2015 06:17:42 PM MDT
I'm with sqlbullet. I think some over-stepping took place in this situation!
I agree! The owners overstepped their bounds by not controlling their dog!
It's a chance any of us take walking up to an unknown property. That's the Dog's home! We can't just shoot them because they come out the door. No way to confirm if it had a bad intent in mind. Hopefully they will update on the settlement and/or charges filed in the case.
I don't like the fact that the dog was shot either.
I am not speaking legal here, just as a responsible dog owner. If Fido stays in the house, Fido lives to bite another day.
I'm a runner. It's funny how every dog owner is 100% confident their dog won't bite...in several cases, even after they've watched it take a chunk out of someone.
If the dog had been controlled, this never would have happened. Should the officer have really been required to allow a chunk to be taken out of him before reacting???
A year ago, I was out on a run where I had been countless times. I see a dog I'd never seen before, some kind of pit or pit mix. Two guys in the yard working on a truck. The dog charges, and given my experience all the bad signs. Head low, ears back. The owners follow, but the dog is on me and in the road. I make myself big, yell, do all the stuff that stops 99% of dogs. This one is different. It fakes left, then right, then launches itself straight for my throat. Somehow, by total reflex, I snap my right hand up and catch its collar. I had a big bruise on my chin, it came that close to my throat. I took it by the collar, got the left hand on its back leg, and pile-drove it into the far side ditch hard enough to stun it until the owners got there.
Had I had a gun and shot the dog, would I be criticized here for not being more tolerant? I'll tell you, the owner was more shook up than I, but I haven't been back by there simply because I would not go unarmed and if that dog charged me again I would shoot it the minute it hit the public road.
This was totally the fault of the owner. If anyone came up to the front door and rang the bell, and was charged by the dog like that, they would be within their rights to defend themselves. Control your dang animals.
We practiced this on our job and it worked.
You knock, ID yourself and hold the door and not let it open if there is a animal that is going to attack. I say animal as I have had a peacock and ostrich come at me.
No one wants a pet shot for the most part.
We aren't talking about a dog in a park or public place. He was in his own front yard.
If my dog can't run free in my front yard without fear of a stranger, unannounced coming onto my property and shooting my dog, then I don't know why we are debating about gun rights. Cause we have no meaningful rights left.
For all we know the yard was fenced and the dog was used to running out the door to do his business.
Your running down the street and the dog runs up to you, sure, defend yourself.
Quote from: sqlbullet on October 31 2015 12:03:49 PM MDT
We aren't talking about a dog in a park or public place. He was in his own front yard.
If my dog can't run free in my front yard without fear of a stranger, unannounced coming onto my property and shooting my dog, then I don't know why we are debating about gun rights. Cause we have no meaningful rights left.
For all we know the yard was fenced and the dog was used to running out the door to do his business.
Your running down the street and the dog runs up to you, sure, defend yourself.
So...if I am on a call at a residence (true story) for a domestic dispute between two dykes, and I am attacked by their dog, I shouldn't be able to defend myself?
What happened was, the dog (a black lab) bit me and ran. When it came back I started to draw my weapon and the bull dyke got in between me and the dog, thus saving it's life.
I had a right to be on the property (doing my job), and I have a right to defend myself from pets or any animals which intend to do me harm. The owners in the video in question failed to control their dog. Period.
What if this had been a girl scout coming to the door to sell cookies? Or trick or treaters? We can't allow our dogs (mine included) to go around attacking anyone that walks on the property.
You and I must see very different things in this video.
I had a dog growing up in rural Indiana. Half blue heeler, half dalmation. He would bare his teeth and wag his tail if he was happy to see you, a trait he partially learned from his human pack. And he would run up to anyone that came to our door, wagging his tail and grinning.
That is what I see here. Taken together with the homeowners statement that the dog was just excited, but not attacking, I think this officer was over the line.
Yes, if you have a dog that will bite anyone that comes onto the property, then you need to act to reduce that threat or expect pay a good bit of legal and hospital bills and bury a pet.
I wasn't there. I am just judging the video. But in this video, together with the (possibly skewed) statement that the dog's disposition was not towards violence, I don't think the officer acted within rights he should have in a free country.
Now, if he had been responding to a domestic violence call with pets and people that were already wound up, that is a very, very different scenario. And you presenting it here is a straw-man fallacy. We are discussing this incident, and in point of fact, only the items of this incident visible in the video or from the news story statements. And based on those, I don't agree with the shooting.
To be quite honest, I am not certain I agree with the shooting either. Only because as you said, we weren't there and we don't know exactly what the dog's disposition was at the time it was shot. The fact there is no audio doesn't help this.
Perhaps the dog was being friendly or inquisitive and the officer mistook the dog's intentions? Probably happens every day.
What I am saying is, if the officer had a legal right to be on the property and approach the door (like in my example), then he had the right to protect himself from a vicious animal (assuming the dog was indeed vicious), or even to protect himself from a vicious human being for that matter.
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 31 2015 12:31:43 PM MDT
What I am saying is, if the officer had a legal right to be on the property and approach the door (like in my example), then he had the right to protect himself from a vicious animal (assuming the dog was indeed vicious), or even to protect himself from a vicious human being for that matter.
Absolutely agree with this.
Legally under control on a leash or on own property in a fenced in yard - seems the right of a property owner to not have his/her dog shot. If I'm out running and attacked or threatened by a dog that is not restrained, all bets are off. Officers should have the same.
Officer had a right to be on private property doing his job, ok. Any signage "beware of dog"? I wonder. If he was truly threatened and afraid of serious bodily injury or death... can't blame him for shooting.
Discretion: Only weapon of self defense was a firearm? Seems like he should have had a non lethal option, not only for the dog's sake, but the owner and any guests. Discharging your weapon toward the ground in line with the door? Not wise.
I was taught in one of my handgun / carry courses to always train in physical combat and carry a chemical spray. I generally do. Having no options between do nothing and kill can leave you very vulnerable to questions around immediate progression to deadly force. That's what we have here.
Criminally, in this case, I don't think you can do much legally. However, I would not want this guy working for me. And civilly, he may be found liable if it goes to court.
I pretty much think that if my dog runs out the door and bites the mailman, a child trick or treating, the power guy reading the meter, or whoever....I am liable.
A fenced in yard with big "Beware of Dog" signs? Yes, maybe less liable. Though that didn't seem to be the case here.
Another true story that I just remembered..
Myself and a couple of my squad mates got detailed to a call in a GP (general police) area. I don't remember the exact nature of the call, but I think it was a home invasion or something similar. The call was serious enough that it warranted one of my squad mates to break out our issued shotgun, the Benelli M1 Super 90.
Anyway, we are standing in the front yard, which looks similar in size to the yard in the video. If memory serves me correctly, we cleared the house and were standing in the front yard when the owner somehow lets three dogs loose (I don't remember where the dogs were during the clearing of the house).
Anyways, the dogs first come at me, but I am able to keep them away by shoving my PR-24 in their faces. The PR-24 is the issued hard plastic baton with the handle on it. This piece of equipment has gotten me out of quite a few jams over the years, and no doubt saved me from being bitten that night. The dogs however, went to my buddy with the shotgun next. He was bitten in the leg several times, and I think the only reason he didn't start firing his shotgun was because of the close proximity to myself, the other squad members, and the home owners.
Anyhoo, he gets medical attention and the incident is over for the time being. Years later, I find out he sued the home owners for being bitten by their dogs. I believe he got $10,000, but I don't remember for sure and he may have gotten more.
So...this kinda sorta shows that as police officers we had a right to be on the property, and the owners of the dogs had an obligation to control them.
Take it for what it's worth. That's all I got!
All I can say is he got lucky to leave with his life. You come onto someone's property and shoot their lifelong companion and they might just snap!
Quote from: Intercooler on November 01 2015 03:22:29 AM MST
All I can say is he got lucky to leave with his life. You come onto someone's property and shoot their lifelong companion and they might just snap!
You never know. Cripes I just remembered another time one of the guys got bit. We were inside the house making an arrest of the owner. The dog was in the house and didn't seem vicious or anything until we put handcuffs on the owner. The dog then went for my buddy's leg and he put two 9mm rounds through it's back from the top.
I believe at the time we were issued the old "green box" Remington 115 grain JHP.
I feel like he reacted with his gun too quick. If I was in the situation I probably would've given the pooch a swift kick, then maybe pepper spray. If that didn't work then maybe the pistol, but that would be last resort.
I also agree with Intercooler, if someone shot my best friend in my own front yard, shits probably going to get real, very fast. (especially if the person in question was in plain clothes and hadn't introduced themself) Also bear in mind I train my own dogs so they wouldn't be squirting out like that, so were dealing with a theoretical situation on multiple levels here...
I would be angry if someone shot my dog in my own yard too.
Another 4949 story and I will stop boring you guys...
I think it was two years ago on the evening before thanksgiving. My son was home from college, and as many kids do he was out with his friends. I went to bed. Around 2 AM I get woken up by the sound of a car outside, and I see a spot light go on. I get out of bed and look out through the blinds, and see a police car from the next town over. The first thing I think of is maybe something happened to my son (I didn't realize until later that he was in his room sleeping at the time).
So the officer comes to the door and I greet him. He doesn't know I am also a police officer but it doesn't really matter. So he asks me if my wife just left to pick up my son. I said, "No, she is in bed." He looks at me disbelieving like, and then I see him look past me through the doorway, so I turn around and see my Doberman coming out of the room and down the stairs. Now, I know my dog was just coming out to say "Hi." But the officer didn't know this. I took control of the dog immediately, because I saw the fear / uncertainty in the officer's eyes.
But I will have to say, if I would have been irresponsible and let my dog run over at the officer, and he would have shot my dog (poor Cooper), it would have been my fault and my fault alone.
Anyways, my son was home thankfully, and it was a case of mistaken identity. And Cooper didn't get shot. 8)
DO WHAT!!! So if your Dog approached the officer you are okay with him gunning it down
(http://media.giphy.com/media/HsekC0u9JfyEg/giphy-facebook_s.jpg)
I gotta get out of this one! Guns are your last line of defense and I expect an even higher level from LEO's in resorting to them!!!!
Quote from: Intercooler on November 01 2015 07:57:12 AM MST
DO WHAT!!! So if your Dog approached the officer you are okay with him gunning it down
(http://media.giphy.com/media/HsekC0u9JfyEg/giphy-facebook_s.jpg)
I gotta get out of this one! Guns are your last line of defense and I expect an even higher level from LEO's in resorting to them!!!!
Easy does there buddy. I said I am responsible for controlling my dog. That's all I am saying.
Is an armed member of the general public allowed to shoot the dog in the exact same situation?
What would the officer do after called in because a salesman shot the dog?
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that question, and why would the shooter in this case be handled differently?
In my state, there is the Milwaukee PD that is trained to eliminate the dog if it is a possible threat. In the same geographical area there is the Milwaukee County Sheriff Department that teaches how to read the animal's actions before taking that action. It ALL lies in the training.
For the comments above that talk of giving ground or running, its the wrong reaction for a dog.
First there is the friendly one. It will keep on coming looking for attention.
Second is the typical dog protecting its property that will stop out of physical reach and growl, snarl, and bark to intimidate. The only threat is if you run, give ground rapidly, or turn your back.
Third is the dog that is simply going to attack. A single 40 lb dog simply isn't a match for a man that size. A swift kick would separate the dog's intention and pepper spray would end an attack in almost all instances.
Officer over-reacted and put others at risk. It could have encouraged retaliation by the property owners. It didn't have to happen. I REPEAT..... IT DIDN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN!!!!
Greg
Agree it didn't have to happen, maybe from both sides as you suggest.
An armed citizen has as much right to defend himself/herself as a law enforcement officer does. The only difference is that the law enforcement officer is not obliged to retreat, and may use force on force in order to achieve a lawful objective.
Wrong!
I can't go onto someone else's private property and shoot their Dog regardless of the threat.
The only time in my life I had the Maryland State Police show up at my door was over something similar. In my old house I had battle with the people living behind me as they used my gate and my shed to fence in their yard with two Dogs. They also bridged across an easement I pushed my mower and trash cans through from 1991-2013 when they did this. I had asked them several times and myself + neighbor volunteered to put in a gate setup at the existing easement. They insisted they would do it later and that day never arrived! I finally went over to their house and told them I needed my gate opened up for these activities and if I did so, the one that snapped through the fence at me might come onto my property prompting me to shoot it, should it try attacking! The lady started getting livid with me telling me to leave her property and she was calling the COPS.
I went around front on the steps and waited for them to show up, because I knew she would for sure call (she's rather nuts herself). When they arrived, I explained exactly what was said and they said it's well within my right to open my gate and even shoot at them if:
- They were on my personal property
- I felt threatened for my life
They left me stating they were going to go over to tell her the same and that they needed to restrain their Dogs within their property via their own fencing (not using my shed and double gate).
I decided to not try opening my gate, since I knew we were moving shortly and put a gate in my neighbors fence to the left to venture around front with trash/mower. Trust me, I thought about it since the white one always had teeth gnashing through the fence when I was back there.
Some good reading:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-322933.html
Quote from: Intercooler on November 01 2015 11:13:50 AM MST
Wrong!
I can't go onto someone else's private property and shoot their Dog regardless of the threat.
The only time in my life I had the Maryland State Police show up at my door was over something similar. In my old house I had battle with the people living behind me as they used my gate and my shed to fence in their yard with two Dogs. They also bridged across an easement I pushed my mower and trash cans through from 1991-2013 when they did this. I had asked them several times and myself + neighbor volunteered to put in a gate setup at the existing easement. They insisted they would do it later and that day never arrived! I finally went over to their house and told them I needed my gate opened up for these activities and if I did so, the one that snapped through the fence at me might come onto my property prompting me to shoot it, should it try attacking! The lady started getting livid with me telling me to leave her property and she was calling the COPS.
I went around front on the steps and waited for them to show up, because I knew she would for sure call (she's rather nuts herself). When they arrived, I explained exactly what was said and they said it's well within my right to open my gate and even shoot at them if:
- They were on my personal property
- I felt threatened for my life
They left me stating they were going to go over to tell her the same and that they needed to restrain their Dogs within their property via their own fencing (not using my shed and double gate).
I decided to not try opening my gate, since I knew we were moving shortly and put a gate in my neighbors fence to the left to venture around front with trash/mower. Trust me, I thought about it since the white one always had teeth gnashing through the fence when I was back there.
Some good reading:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-322933.html
I have only been in law enforcement for 26+ years. 12 of those years I have been a supervisor.
But perhaps I know nothing about the lawful use of force. Perhaps Intercooler, you could teach me something.
Until that day comes though, I will continue to do things as I have been trained, and as my 26+ years of law enforcement experience tells me.
Thanks for all your schooling.
Quote from: 4949shooter on November 01 2015 12:51:39 PM MST
Quote from: Intercooler on November 01 2015 11:13:50 AM MST
Wrong!
I can't go onto someone else's private property and shoot their Dog regardless of the threat.
The only time in my life I had the Maryland State Police show up at my door was over something similar. In my old house I had battle with the people living behind me as they used my gate and my shed to fence in their yard with two Dogs. They also bridged across an easement I pushed my mower and trash cans through from 1991-2013 when they did this. I had asked them several times and myself + neighbor volunteered to put in a gate setup at the existing easement. They insisted they would do it later and that day never arrived! I finally went over to their house and told them I needed my gate opened up for these activities and if I did so, the one that snapped through the fence at me might come onto my property prompting me to shoot it, should it try attacking! The lady started getting livid with me telling me to leave her property and she was calling the COPS.
I went around front on the steps and waited for them to show up, because I knew she would for sure call (she's rather nuts herself). When they arrived, I explained exactly what was said and they said it's well within my right to open my gate and even shoot at them if:
- They were on my personal property
- I felt threatened for my life
They left me stating they were going to go over to tell her the same and that they needed to restrain their Dogs within their property via their own fencing (not using my shed and double gate).
I decided to not try opening my gate, since I knew we were moving shortly and put a gate in my neighbors fence to the left to venture around front with trash/mower. Trust me, I thought about it since the white one always had teeth gnashing through the fence when I was back there.
Some good reading:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-322933.html (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-322933.html)
I have only been in law enforcement for 26+ years. 12 of those years I have been a supervisor.
But perhaps I know nothing about the lawful use of force. Perhaps Intercooler, you could teach me something.
Until that day comes though, I will continue to do things as I have been trained, and as my 26+ years of law enforcement experience tells me.
Thanks for all your schooling.
Didn't make sense to me, either.
There's only one answer to a charging pit bull. Sad and unfortunate, but fact is fact. Pet or no pet. Private property or no. If you have a pit bull that charges "friendly", you better fix that, or someone else will. If that were a burglar, he'd still be off the hook. On duty uniformed ("casual" uniform, but still uniformed) LEO with a lawful presence is no-contest. Unleashed and no secure fence is a loser for the property/pet owner, every time. Same end result. Been there. Done that. More times than I care to recall.
Law enforcement might be able to, but not us standard citizens. That's what I was trying to say. If you have a law that you can show me saying I can please post it.
Quote from: DM1906 on November 01 2015 01:25:26 PM MST
There's only one answer to a charging pit bull. Sad and unfortunate, but fact is fact.
That's B.S......
There are options. Lots of options. I can say if that was an aggressive pit, I would have been just fine with OC spray. First the dog would have been a field goal attempt, and if it would have been sprayed if it had re-entered in attack, which I doubt it would have.
In my entire life I'd guess I've backed down a thousand dogs that weren't happy with me being around, had to kick or block perhaps half dozen, and never had to spray a single one. I'm confident I wouldn't of done the same thing had I been that individual.
Lets look at what that officer accomplished that day...
He killed a family dog in front of that family.
He placed the family in harm's way by shooting toward a hard surface in line with the door.
He caused a family to absolutely hate the police for the rest of their lives.
He caused those two girls PTS and lots nightmares in coming nights.
He caused a neighborhood to not trust the police to do the right thing.
He likely cost the City a few tens of thousands of dollars trying to defend a bad decision.
There is a HUGE difference between that situation and having to take down a suspect in his home with a dog defending its owner. One answer, my ass. Just who do you serve anyway?
Greg
Quote from: Intercooler on November 01 2015 01:32:09 PM MST
Law enforcement might be able to, but not us standard citizens. That's what I was trying to say. If you have a law that you can show me saying I can please post it.
The laws are the same, LEO or civilian. If you are in the area lawfully, you are every bit lawfully able to defend yourself. A civilian has an added ability to defend oneself, in many cases, even when not lawfully present (such as a burglary). This is especially true in the bluest of blue ambulance-chasing-lawyer states.
If you have a law that you can show me saying you can't, please post it. "Negligent discharge of a firearm in a residential area" laws are nullified by self defense, if that self defense is otherwise lawful. Defending yourself against a charging pit bull is lawful. It's easy to say "I would not have done that", when you weren't there. The officer's actions in the video I saw, while not perfectly, tactically ideal, was absolutely justified. Unless he had prior knowledge, or other factual indicators, he really had no other choice. Also, to say he was negligent with the direction of his shots, is irrelevant. He fired 3 shots. None of them were errant. What "could have happened" is irrelevant. His reaction was admirable, from a tactical view. I've had the (very) unfortunate duty to destroy pit bulls with a .40SW. One shot was NOT effective enough, quick enough, in any case. Hindsight is always 20/20, and allows infinitely more time to evaluate a situation than the mere milliseconds allowed of the officer. Every OIS jury instruction includes this requirement of consideration, and was/is upheld by numerous lower and Supreme Court decisions.
I will have to look into it and possibly ask an attorney here in MD. It just flies in the face of common sense at this point until I find out that I could cross someone's fence and if their Dog tries to take a bite... I can pop it!
Very good point about the ND not counting against you in an attack situation. Gotta love all these laws that are up to interpretation!
Quote from: Geeman on November 01 2015 02:08:27 PM MST
Quote from: DM1906 on November 01 2015 01:25:26 PM MST
There's only one answer to a charging pit bull. Sad and unfortunate, but fact is fact.
That's B.S......
There are options. Lots of options. I can say if that was an aggressive pit, I would have been just fine with OC spray. First the dog would have been a field goal attempt, and if it would have been sprayed if it had re-entered in attack, which I doubt it would have.
In my entire life I'd guess I've backed down a thousand dogs that weren't happy with me being around, had to kick or block perhaps half dozen, and never had to spray a single one. I'm confident I wouldn't of done the same thing had I been that individual.
Lets look at what that officer accomplished that day...
He killed a family dog in front of that family.
He placed the family in harm's way by shooting toward a hard surface in line with the door.
He caused a family to absolutely hate the police for the rest of their lives.
He caused those two girls PTS and lots nightmares in coming nights.
He caused a neighborhood to not trust the police to do the right thing.
He likely cost the City a few tens of thousands of dollars trying to defend a bad decision.
There is a HUGE difference between that situation and having to take down a suspect in his home with a dog defending its owner. One answer, my ass. Just who do you serve anyway?
Greg
OC vs. pit bull? You go with that. It's obvious you've never done it. It doesn't work. Ever. If you are far enough away to consider that as an option, you have that distance/time to consider other options, such as retreat (if it is an option) or cover.
Kick a pit bull? Go ahead. I know of several who tried. Even at (only) 40 pounds, all you'll do is piss it off, and use up VERY valuable reaction time. And, once it is on you, you remove the ability for your backup, if you have one, to do anything to help you, without risking further injury or death to you. Yeah. Good idea.
I don't care what the "advocacies" have to say about them. All dogs are not created equal, and size does not matter. A Kel-Light dropped between the ears of a 150# Rot can be effective (requiring no further action). A 50# pit bull? No way! Rot's don't like OC, and will hesitate or turn away almost every time. Pit bulls don't. And in 3' or less? No way. Once "in" a bite, they stay that way until disabled or they get pulled off with a mouthful of whatever they had.
As for your list of what was "caused" by the actions, it was "caused" by the pet owner's failure to restrain that pet. None of this would have happened if the dog didn't lunge out the door. With no audio, it's hard to know what really happened. After he knocked, it appeared he became alarmed about something (possibly doggy nails running across a tile floor, or growling), as he backed up and covered his weapon (S.O.P., BTW). He didn't retreat/draw until the dog was already out and closing the distance. You pass your judgment according to a very limited video representation and the opinions of extremely liberal op-eds. I'll wait for the investigation.
Quote from: Intercooler on November 01 2015 02:45:11 PM MST
I will have to look into it and possibly ask an attorney here in MD. It just flies in the face of common sense at this point until I find out that I could cross someone's fence and if their Dog tries to take a bite... I can pop it!
Very good point about the ND not counting against you in an attack situation. Gotta love all these laws that are up to interpretation!
If a dog "tries" to bite, or bites, you have the right to defend yourself, by whatever means that may be reasonable. If you are lawfully carrying a firearm, and lawfully present, then that defense is lawful. However, you, as with any LEO, assumes responsibility for any unreasonable collateral damage or injury. Simply, you wouldn't be liable for divots in the walk, but
may be liable for injury due to ricochet, for example. That's a huge gray area, in any case.
Don't get me wrong, here. I don't agree or disagree with this, and I don't dislike dogs (love dogs, actually). I do dislike irresponsible dog owners. There just isn't enough information available, and no investigation info has been released. The media bias is obvious (I read about 6 different media reports, all essentially the same). I'm very surprised (and disappointed in some cases) at the condemnation offered by some folks here, with no more information than I've seen.
Maybe some are like me being "Junk Yard Dog". I don't like ANYONE on my property that isn't invited by me and I'm harsh! On that list would be religious people, sales people, solicitors, other community residents cutting through the common area on the side of my property and anyone coming to my door to try pushing something.
Watch his demeanor from the start
Hi's all "twitchy" looking around the Front Porch area
Then watch his hand
He's going for his Gun AS the Door is being opened
I think there's more here than just going up to tell the resident that they had left the Car Door open
Nothing wrong with that and, in fact, I'm much the same way. However, a peace officer on your/my property with lawful business requires some level of restraint. I'm a (ret.) cop, and I don't like anyone on my property uninvited, including cops. I live in a mountain area with lots of acreage and a 1/4 mile driveway. By the time they are here, there's probably a very good reason for it (most of the time they're flatlanders looking for an address or local info.). I have nothing to hide, but no one has any right or authority to question that. I respect that of others, as well. A fleeing felon using your yard as a getaway route will have zero respect for you or your rights. We have a Conservation Camp (minimum security state prison fire camp) a few miles up the road from me, and that's played a part a few times with escapees. They've never entered my property, that I know of, but I know it could happen, and we have a "contingency plan", if it should.
Quote from: DenStinett on November 01 2015 04:04:43 PM MST
Watch his demeanor from the start
Hi's all "twitchy" looking around the Front Porch area
Then watch his hand
He's going for his Gun AS the Door is being opened
I think there's more here than just going up to tell the resident that they had left the Car Door open
What video did you watch?
What "twitchy" behavior? Attempting to contact an unknown does warrant some caution, such as looking around. I saw nothing unusual, at all, before the door was initially opened. Too relaxed, if anything, in my professional opinion.
He didn't "cover" his weapon until the door was partially open. He didn't "go for his gun" (grip and draw) until the dog was OUT of the door.
Of course, there may be more to this. Unfortunately, no one is talking about it. Maybe the only "more" is the speculation. At this point, the investigation and fact doesn't matter. The media has already rendered a verdict. Guilty, until the officer proves his innocence?
The media is a joke. One (or more) actually said the dog was happy while the owner comforted it after the incident. Really? Because its tail was wagging? After being shot 3 times in the head? Really? That's the jury we're dealing with. Or I could be completely wrong, and I have, in fact, generated a tremendous amount of joy in the truckloads of squirrels I've shot.
It seems there are two subjects to this thread.
1. Did this officer do the right thing under the circumstances? (This is up to speculation and opinion)
2. Can deadly use of force be justified when you are on someone else's property.
Well, if a SWAT team or any officer goes through a gate approaching a residence on a raid, call, warrant service, or whatever legal reason, he or she has the right to use force and deadly force to protect him or herself. I am not going to bother quoting NJ law. What I can say is that I get refreshed on it twice a year as per NJ requirement.
What am I supposed to do? Let the dog chew my leg off?
Speaking of pit bulls, about ten years ago two of my friends were attacked by a pit bull when they went on a call. The owner "let" the dog out. The pit bull charged my friend twice. He caught the pit in the face just below the eye with one of the 115 grain Remington green box JHP's I was talking about. What happened to the pit bull? It ran off. It survived all night until animal control found it alive the next day. There is a picture of the dog with a hole under its eye, laying down upright, like any dog watching traffic go by its house. The pitbull didn't look like it was even bothered by it. It was euthanized.
All American citizens have the right to defend themselves. As I said before, police officers have the right by law to press forward and use force if necessary to achieve a lawful objective. Non-police officers don't have this right, and thus normally aren't in the same situations police officers are in due to the nature of their jobs. Kind of like the story I just related, where the owner "let" the dog out on my friends. The mailman never seemed to have this problem at that residence.
Quote from: DM1906 on November 01 2015 02:53:20 PM MST
OC vs. pit bull? You go with that. It's obvious you've never done it. It doesn't work. Ever. If you are far enough away to consider that as an option, you have that distance/time to consider other options, such as retreat (if it is an option) or cover.
Kick a pit bull? Go ahead. I know of several who tried. Even at (only) 40 pounds, all you'll do is piss it off, and use up VERY valuable reaction time. And, once it is on you, you remove the ability for your backup, if you have one, to do anything to help you, without risking further injury or death to you. Yeah. Good idea.
You are correct. I've never sprayed one. I have stood a few down and they were about the same as any of the others. Just for kicks I looked for videos on the internet. 100% effective on pits in the videos I could find for dogs with an ability to retreat. A cornered animal will fight no matter what.
Kick one. I'd do it. I'd know just what I had on my hands after that. It either runs back to mama, or its plan B if it chooses to continue. If its a friendly dog, it retreats. If its a bluff charge it runs back to its person. If it means harm to me, it may be heading my way again. What it gets at that point, it deserves.
Pits are generally not aggressive toward people. The dog in the video was the lightest boned Pit Bull to the point where I'd say it isn't a pit. It might have some in its blood, but crop the ears and its a pit according to many. I cannot know for sure. Maybe it was a hardened, trained fighter and the owner turned it loose on a cop, but I doubt it. I would guess it was just a family pet, not the devil incarnate.
Greg
Between years working my dads feed route with him, where every house had at least one dog, and a couple years working in a door to door fashion in cities, I have faced down countless dogs. In all that time I was never bitten, and I was charged lots. Face them aggressively, and yell as loudly as I can if needed. There was only ever one dog I think I could not have made that work on. It belonged to a family in a small town in Nevada, it was a rot, and it had failed out of police K-9 training because it was completely nuts.
I tend to think, regardless of department policy and training or legal sanction, that this video represents the worst application of procedure. He may have the law on his side, but I don't think it was "right". Yes, I do think you have the right to defend yourself if you are in are acting in official capacity. I personally don't think telling someone their car door is open should fall under "official business". (I am assuming the car was in the driveway. If the car was parked curbside then that changes things).
One thing we all need to keep in mind here, as we disagree, is we all fill in these little details differently. Without even thinking about them, we fill them in based on our own bias.
FYI, for reference, I think this is probably the home in question:
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.4405012,-80.4899658,3a,86.1y,21.02h,86.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sX0FI5AuQQ56ZnnFtt25y5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
Quote from: Pinsnscrews on October 23 2015 05:07:10 PM MDT
something was going on in the house that put the officer on edge even before he knocked. He was definately approaching for a reason other than an open car door, or had started to initially and upon getting near the front, something made him defensive.
Just as he crosses the first visible line in the sidewalk you can see his whole tactic change to a cautious defensive one. His knock on the door is almost timid. He was expecting something to happen. It is obvious he is paying close attention to the sounds he is hearing come from in the house.
Quote from: DenStinett on November 01 2015 04:04:43 PM MST
Watch his demeanor from the start
Hi's all "twitchy" looking around the Front Porch area
Then watch his hand
He's going for his Gun AS the Door is being opened
I think there's more here than just going up to tell the resident that they had left the Car Door open
At least I am not the only one who saw the way his approach changed.
Quote from: sqlbullet on November 02 2015 08:55:26 AM MST
FYI, for reference, I think this is probably the home in question:
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.4405012,-80.4899658,3a,86.1y,21.02h,86.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sX0FI5AuQQ56ZnnFtt25y5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
That's a nicer area than I thought it would be.
My co-worker has four pits, and I asked him questions about the video and about the breed. He knows a lot about them.
Did that dog intend to harm the officer?... No
How do you know?... Because if it wanted to harm the man, it would have been air born with its teeth heading directly toward the man's face. There is no man tall enough that a pit can't reach by jumping.
What is the best way to defend against an attacking pit bull?..... Because the dog is off the ground its easy to side step its advance. As it goes by, grab the hide with both hands and use your sideways momentum to toss the dog off to the side. It may or may not continue the attack.
What if I kicked it?.... It may or may not abandon the attack.
What if I wacked it in the head?.... You could wack it in the head with a shovel, dent the shovel, and a pit might think your playing.
What about pepper spray?... Almost certainly it would retreat. If your hurting one of its humans, all bets are off, but their noses are sensitive to the stuff. It wouldn't want any more of it.
He also gave some advise to a pit clamped onto a victim. There is a way to get it to release, post haste. Stick your thumb up the dogs ass, and all the focus its putting on the business in front of him is instantly forgotten and replaced with "What's in my butt?"
Greg