Another forum I belong to has a long thread about all the recent hate on the 40 S&W, lots since the FBI announced their decision to go to a 9mm. One poster there suggested lost of guys bought 40's on the basis of it being the FBI caliber, and now are insecure in their decision.
I think there may be some validity in that. Many people are unwilling to own a decision without the support of the crowd. As a result, most of those 40 owners who are now confused about their gun identity are going to dump their Glock 23's in favor of Glock 19's.
But maybe, just maybe, a few of them might stop and consider that since they are already dealing with the snappy recoil and muzzle blast, they might as well maximize that with a -3 step instead of a -4 (23-3=Glock 20). Their closet of projectiles in .400 will still serve them well, and heck, they can even get a 40 S&W barrel to burn up any lingering loaded ammo.
On the one hand, I really hate to see the 40 S&W beat up as it is a solid round, and it ensures there are plenty of .400 projectiles out there for use to mess around with. But I would be thrilled if those users came to their senses and moved on up to the 10mm.
Yes...nothing wrong with the .40. All this change to 9mm is the "flavor of the day" just like the .40 was 20 years ago.
The 10mm has a future, but I don't think it will be with law enforcement. Though I DO think it would be the ideal handgun round for the Alaska Troopers.
Quote
I think there may be some validity in that. Many people are unwilling to own a decision without the support of the crowd.
I think that is one of the major problems with Americans in general. They always have to go along with the crowd.
I was never a fan of 40S&W. I do remember everyone buying a 40S&W pistol back in the 1990's because that is what the FBI used. I have always liked 9mm. I hope 9mm doesn't become a pansie-homo fad like Glocks, AR rifles, and Magpul accessories. I have nothing against those 3 things by themselves: I own more than one of each of them. I just don't like the fact that whiny effeminate pansie-homos special-forces swat navy-seal posers also buy that stuff.
A 40S&W makes a bigger hole than a 9mm, but a 45ACP makes an even bigger hole. A 40S&W magazine holds more rounds than a 45ACP magazine, but a 9mm magazine holds more rounds than a 40S&W. I do not go for the "it's the best of both worlds", or it is a compromise between 9mm ad 45ACP.
I was hoping that the FBI and DHS would dump all their 40S&W ammo, so I could buy it for half price and shoot it out of my Glock 20
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Quote from: 4949shooter on October 20 2015 03:43:35 PM MDT
The 10mm has a future, but I don't think it will be with law enforcement. Though I DO think it would be the ideal handgun round for the Alaska Troopers.
They already use the Glock 20 as a Duty Pistol. It has been in use by the Alaska State Troopers for more than 20 years.
Quote from: Captain O on October 20 2015 09:18:23 PM MDT
They already use the Glock 20 as a Duty Pistol. It has been in use by the Alaska State Troopers for more than 20 years.
Nope, they went to a Glock 22 several years back.
Yep Glock 22.
Quote from: Captain O on October 22 2015 08:43:45 PM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 21 2015 03:28:43 PM MDT
Yep Glock 22.
That's a dangerous move. I wish them well.
They have had it for years. I will see if I can get some information form my contacts on the weapon and its performance.
Anyone know what 10mm load they were issuing? If it was "FBI load" they really didn't change anything but the size of the grip.
Interesting video here:
https://www.facebook.com/natgeotvUS/videos/1732941893151/
The FBI decision has no impact on me. I still like the 40SW more than the 9. Caliber wars can go on forever, but in small, compact carry guns, my choice is the 40.
In the winter, I will often carry my 10. I can dump a 9-round mag onto an 8X11 target as fast as a 9 or 40 and keep all the rounds there, at 7 yards. That's good enough for me.
If I can control a 10, I can control a 40. If I can control a 40, what benefit in going to 9 in the same size gun?
I love the 10 more than anything.
But I carry a Glock 33, just a sweet gun.
Years ago, I bought a S&W 4006 when it first came out with the .40S&W. While the pistol was well made, it was heavy for an 11 round capacity weighing if I can remember 38 or so ounces, empty.
The pistol had (for me) a real snappiness to it and I 'felt' the round when shooting. Bottom line... never liked the pistol and the .40 S&W. Went back to my 686 as my primary gun, and this was no lightweight either.
Moved to the 9mm and .45ACP in more compact pistols, namely a Glock 19 after trying a few Sigs, an HK, a Steyr and a Kahr. Have had the G19 for ten years and could not be more satisfied.
With the 1911, I moved from all steel government models for carry to a Dan Wesson CCO, lighter weight and thin. Perfect combo.
I've always been convinced that the .40S&W in a smaller, compact pistol is NOT the right combo for most shooters.
Now, it's brother, the 10mm, is PERFECT in the Glock 20SF I have. That's one reason I didn't buy the G29, though many folks have no problem with this compact version.
The 9mm's JHP's have come a long way in bullet design. If you want more penetration, get some Underwood or Buffalo Bore boutique FMJ and blast away.
For most folks, the 9mm with some excellent JHP's that seem to feed well in the 9mm design, is a very effective defensive round for 'most' situations.
If you need more, get the 10mm, 357Sig or .45ACP.
Most of all... shot placement!
Quote from: climb14er on November 06 2015 08:37:24 AM MST
Years ago, I bought a S&W 4006 when it first came out with the .40S&W. While the pistol was well made, it was heavy for an 11 round capacity weighing if I can remember 38 or so ounces, empty.
The pistol had (for me) a real snappiness to it and I 'felt' the round when shooting. Bottom line... never liked the pistol and the .40 S&W. Went back to my 686 as my primary gun, and this was no lightweight either.
Moved to the 9mm and .45ACP in more compact pistols, namely a Glock 19 after trying a few Sigs, an HK, a Steyr and a Kahr. Have had the G19 for ten years and could not be more satisfied.
With the 1911, I moved from all steel government models for carry to a Dan Wesson CCO, lighter weight and thin. Perfect combo.
I've always been convinced that the .40S&W in a smaller, compact pistol is NOT the right combo for most shooters.
Now, it's brother, the 10mm, is PERFECT in the Glock 20SF I have. That's one reason I didn't buy the G29, though many folks have no problem with this compact version.
The 9mm's JHP's have come a long way in bullet design. If you want more penetration, get some Underwood or Buffalo Bore boutique FMJ and blast away.
For most folks, the 9mm with some excellent JHP's that seem to feed well in the 9mm design, is a very effective defensive round for 'most' situations.
If you need more, get the 10mm, 357Sig or .45ACP.
Most of all... shot placement!
Similar experience, and couldn't agree more.
I spent a lot of time looking this up years ago and I think agents that were issued 10mm could keep them. Agents that did not like 40S&W could get a 9mm as long as they qualified with it. I would guess that if the FBI goes with 9mm then agents that want to keep their 40S&W pistols will till they retire.
That has been their pattern in the past, and probably will continue.
Is there a place I can buy 10mm ammo in the original load that was so tough for the FBI? I understand the standard 10mm that I'd normally purchase is a much lighter load than the original.
Thanks
First, the FBI never issued any load other than the 180 grain @950 fps load. Reports that FBI agents could not handle the recoil are erroneous. They cooked up this load during their testing protocols out of concern over the Colt Delta Elite's ability to handle the higher impulse load. The primary complaint of agents was carrying a gun as big and heavy as the 1076, and getting their hands around the grip.
That said, you are correct that the FBI load was substantially downloaded. 180 grains JHP @ 950 fps is 300 to 400 fps below 10mm max. Winchester Silvertips 175 grain JHP load is running 1294 fps according to the box and 1210 fps in testing from a 4.75" barrel. Underwood and Buffalo Bore 180 grain JHP's are both advertised at 1300 fps and in testing meet or exceed that speed from a 4.75" barrel.
If you look in the factory ammo section of this forum, one of the stickies is a factory ammo test sheet that shows advertised and for most loads real world tested volocities for the various commercial loads.
Here is a direct link.
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/10mm-factory-ammo-master-sheet/
Honestly, I could care less what the FBI does or recommend. The 10mm format is the best pistol platform out there. You can change to .40 or .357 quick. You can load them cold, medium or hot.
The public appears to be recognizing this. Manufacturers are making the guns with multiple sizes and purposes. Plus I have never seen so much ammo from many different companies.
Heck there is even a great website about the 10mm out there.
These are the golden days, all thats left it getting a revolver released.
FBI uses what they called 10mm SPL......special,lol...and there are still 10mms in use .
I just don't get it. After the Miami shootout where the 9mm pistols of the agent failed to take the bad guys down, they went to 10mm. Then they did not like the recoil of the 10mm and now they are going back to 9mm's again? This is typical guvmint thinking.
It is not just the FBI that is going back to 9 minies...many law enforcement and others are also switching back. The reason is cost and supply via contracts for ammo first and foremost so they can train more and keep ammo in stock.
Yes, the 9mm works for them...Why? Besides keeping cost down and able to carry more ammo in their guns while keeping carry weight lower on their already overloaded gun belts (law enforcement mainly) they also have backup personnel and weapons at their disposal, in shot order. (something the average joe doesn't have while carrying in public)
Such as many have backup shotguns and AR rifles in their daily cruisers. FBI usually arrive after law enforcement has secured a scene, unless they are conducting a raid and their 9's will be close quarter confrontations and likely be swinging other type firearms... ::)
One thing that may happen is that we will see less 10mm/.40 cal bullet diversity in the long run and the prices could become even higher, because they are not having contract overruns for some styles that may be sold to the public. So with less demands and production we may be suckling the hind tit so to speak. ??? I hope I'm wrong because there are plenty .40 cal firearms out there that will need bullets.
The other thing they have learned is the rank and file officer cannot shot a 40 as fast and accurately as they can a 9mm. Hits with the less potent 9mm are far better than misses.
It also comes down to bring the perp to the justice for their day in court only to be turned around and shoved out the "REVOLVING DOORS OF JUSTICE"...
If they just kill them, the departments get bad PR and sued. Either way the lawyers get to make a astronomical amount of money as they work the system...
Not to mention the 9mm ammo today is heads and tails above what was available 20 years ago....that helps.
Quote from: will965 on December 10 2015 04:07:17 PM MST
Not to mention the 9mm ammo today is heads and tails above what was available 20 years ago....that helps.
This is true. Advancements in metallurgy, manufacturing techniques, construction for terminal performance, and chemical advances in propellants have all allowed the 9mm to amp up its "game", as it were.
But, a rising tide raises all boats. So the 10mm is also heads and shoulders above what it was 20 years ago.
Quote from: sqlbullet on December 10 2015 09:03:55 AM MST
The other thing they have learned is the rank and file officer cannot shot a 40 as fast and accurately as they can a 9mm. Hits with the less potent 9mm are far better than misses.
Maybe I shoulda been an agent when they went to 10mm. Here's one of my targets.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/Gandog56/dwgroup.jpg)
Quote from: gandog56 on December 10 2015 08:22:21 PM MST
Quote from: sqlbullet on December 10 2015 09:03:55 AM MST
The other thing they have learned is the rank and file officer cannot shot a 40 as fast and accurately as they can a 9mm. Hits with the less potent 9mm are far better than misses.
Maybe I shoulda been an agent when they went to 10mm. Here's one of my targets.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/Gandog56/dwgroup.jpg)
Hell yeah!
Quote from: sqlbullet on December 10 2015 09:03:55 AM MST
The other thing they have learned is the rank and file officer cannot shot a 40 as fast and accurately as they can a 9mm. Hits with the less potent 9mm are far better than misses.
I guess it doesn't matter that you may have to hit them a lot more with a 9 to stop them,, then. Reminds me of when the US Army was screaming that the .38's they were issued did not stop the Moros charging at them in the Philippines. That is how the .45 Came to be.
There is a huge difference between the terminal ballistics of the 38 Long Colt (125 grains @750 fps) and a 9mm NATO (125 grains @ 1200 fps).
Medical reports show that for human aggressors, any handgun is under powered.
Quote from: sqlbullet on December 13 2015 07:27:14 AM MST
There is a huge difference between the terminal ballistics of the 38 Long Colt (125 grains @750 fps) and a 9mm NATO (125 grains @ 1200 fps).
Medical reports show that for human aggressors, any handgun is under powered.
......Any [reasonable] handgun is underpowered. There are exceptions to the statement, but none of them reasonable for combat. Big power, low capacity. Small power, High capacity. Soldiers are not issued handguns as their primary weapon, and are not referred to
handgunmen, for a reason. Any combat-capable handgun is only marginally effective as a means to get a rifle in your hands.
The 9mm and .45ACP are equally lethal. The problem is, TIME. Lethal hits with the .45 are more likely to stop the fight earlier.
That said, soldiers armed with .500SWM SBR's would only have to fight one battle. After the MSM got through reporting the horrific carnage (with their typical embellishments), no opposing force would stay on the battlefield. As Teddy said, "Big Stick!"
Not a real fan of the .40 S&W cartridge. It's okay, but If I want to shoot something that's "reduced" I'll shoot the 9mm or something else. The Feds aren't known for the best of decisions.
While I am not a 40 S&W fan either, it was the right move for the feds. They were already loading 10mm to those specs, why not benefit from a shorter cartridge.
9mm vs. .40 Caliber (some of these scenes may be disturbing)
http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2016/01/9mm-vs-40-caliber.aspx (http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2016/01/9mm-vs-40-caliber.aspx)
Alaska state troopers use the g/22.
Quote from: Captain O on December 19 2015 05:13:56 PM MST
Not a real fan of the .40 S&W cartridge. It's okay, but If I want to shoot something that's "reduced" I'll shoot the 9mm or something else. The Feds aren't known for the best of decisions.
Didn't the Feds spend a lot of money after the Miami shootout going to 10mm because 9mm was inadequate? Only to woose out and say recoil was too strong? But still, going back to the caliber gun that was inadequate in the first place? This is your government tax dollars at work! :-\
Not to run afoul of 10mm and .45ACP purists, but there are very good 9mm bullet designs and +P loads that weren't around when the 10mm was tried by the FBI. The 9mm is a less expensive caliber for FMJ target practice and HP, and if they are more accurate with it along with effective bullet designs then it seems like a good move.
I agree, but improvements in hollow point design is a tide that raises all boats. 10 mm and 45 acp are that much better for it to. And there is nothing that overcomes the same sectional density in a heavier bullet moving faster.
Mostly ineffective projectiles with poor design characteristics back then. It also sparked a search for better bullet designs and ammunition performance standards.
They want to bring the perp to justice more so than kill them.
Better accuracy and capacity in a smaller easier to handle package.
Law Enforcement and other Agencies have the benefit of numbers and backup teams.
(We don't have these at our disposal during an attack on us until LEA's arrive)
Also close quarter battle with personnel or non criminals in the vicinity where shots are fired.
Also most LEA's carry other weapons like AR's these days.
Who will be the losers? We may be the losers as projectiles for 40 caliber may not be as prevalent as they are at the present as they give way to 9mm over time.
Quote from: sqlbullet on January 28 2016 07:53:34 PM MST
I agree, but improvements in hollow point design is a tide that raises all boats. 10 mm and 45 acp are that much better for it to. And there is nothing that overcomes the same sectional density in a heavier bullet moving faster.
Agree as well, but cost is also a factor... aka budgets.
Not sure what the LEO on the street would choose...
At the time the 10mm development began, FBI still issued .38 Spl revolvers, with 160 gr. LRN bullets. Agents in the field rarely carried or had access to more than that. The popularity of (modern-type) JHP's in law enforcement, nationwide, was still in the distant future. The HP's of the time were soft points, and the only remaining bullet option was FMJ (which was the bullet developed with the 10mm and early .40SW). The 9mm handguns and ammo available today wasn't an option at that time.
"Capture rather than kill" was/is not a strategy. Of course, capture is preferred, but it was/is not an "option" to be considered in a service weapon, nor at the time of incident. The FBI desired standard at the time was 12-18" penetration, same as now (although 18" was/is, in no way, a limit). If "less lethal" was ever an option, they would have done the same as the military, and insisted on FMJ. At that time, the military was still issuing .38's and .45's. "Overpenetration" was universally discarded as a factor. An average 80% of all combat shots fired by LEO's were misses. Still are today, despite "better accuracy". Can't argue with higher capacity, though. I did "feel" more confident when I traded up to a G22 with 46 rounds, from a Model 10 and 18 rounds.
Despite 35 years of technological advances in firearms and ammunition, the statistics haven't changed one bit.
Quote from: ZanderMan on January 28 2016 08:11:24 PM MST
Quote from: sqlbullet on January 28 2016 07:53:34 PM MST
I agree, but improvements in hollow point design is a tide that raises all boats. 10 mm and 45 acp are that much better for it to. And there is nothing that overcomes the same sectional density in a heavier bullet moving faster.
Agree as well, but cost is also a factor... aka budgets.
Not sure what the LEO on the street would choose...
The LEO on the street would choose a shotgun, every time, but they don't holster well.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/everyone-needs-ar-holster/
Quote from: DM1906 on January 28 2016 09:23:51 PM MST
Quote from: ZanderMan on January 28 2016 08:11:24 PM MST
Quote from: sqlbullet on January 28 2016 07:53:34 PM MST
I agree, but improvements in hollow point design is a tide that raises all boats. 10 mm and 45 acp are that much better for it to. And there is nothing that overcomes the same sectional density in a heavier bullet moving faster.
Agree as well, but cost is also a factor... aka budgets.
Not sure what the LEO on the street would choose...
The LEO on the street would choose a shotgun, every time, but they don't holster well.
Or a 6920 / 6940. But these don't holster well either.
Quote from: 4949shooter on January 29 2016 01:52:56 PM MST
Quote from: DM1906 on January 28 2016 09:23:51 PM MST
Quote from: ZanderMan on January 28 2016 08:11:24 PM MST
Quote from: sqlbullet on January 28 2016 07:53:34 PM MST
I agree, but improvements in hollow point design is a tide that raises all boats. 10 mm and 45 acp are that much better for it to. And there is nothing that overcomes the same sectional density in a heavier bullet moving faster.
Agree as well, but cost is also a factor... aka budgets.
Not sure what the LEO on the street would choose...
The LEO on the street would choose a shotgun, every time, but they don't holster well.
Or a 6920 / 6940. But these don't holster well either.
I will refer you to my link above. The holster for a 6920/6940. Looks fabulous. Might be hard to sit down in a patrol car though.
Quote from: sqlbullet on January 29 2016 02:07:16 PM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on January 29 2016 01:52:56 PM MST
Quote from: DM1906 on January 28 2016 09:23:51 PM MST
Quote from: ZanderMan on January 28 2016 08:11:24 PM MST
Quote from: sqlbullet on January 28 2016 07:53:34 PM MST
I agree, but improvements in hollow point design is a tide that raises all boats. 10 mm and 45 acp are that much better for it to. And there is nothing that overcomes the same sectional density in a heavier bullet moving faster.
Agree as well, but cost is also a factor... aka budgets.
Not sure what the LEO on the street would choose...
The LEO on the street would choose a shotgun, every time, but they don't holster well.
Or a 6920 / 6940. But these don't holster well either.
I will refer you to my link above. The holster for a 6920/6940. Looks fabulous. Might be hard to sit down in a patrol car though.
Nice. Good for a dismounted detail.